OT vs NT Worship - Music\Singing

[Roldan]

First, 2 Chronicles 29:25 tells us that the psalteries, harps and cymbols were used in the temple worship because God commanded it through His prophets. The presumption is that, had God not prescribed the use of these instruments through His prophets, they would not have been used. Nor were the people at liberty to use any instruments they desired unless God commanded it through His prophets. The essence of the RPW is that a divine command is necessary for the implementation of a practice in worship. Absent such a command, the practice is will-worship and human tradition.

If that is how we are going to interpret the RPW then surely those who hold to EP do not recite the Lord's prayer in worship or sing the doxology in worship or whatever Presbyterian or baptist tradition that has been incorporated into the worship service throughout church history. Afterall those things are not commanded even though its in the scripts but surely not commanded.

The advocates of acapella worship maintain that the particular use of instrumental music in the OT worship was prescribed by God as part of the ceremonial and typical system and thus passed away along with all of the other ceremonial elements.

Thats the main issue, there is no biblical testimony for that premise its based on mere assumption. THis is what has to be proven first and in my investigation your premise has not been proven to even consider the rest of the argument. Am I the only one seeing this or what?

Jesus commands us to pray the Lord's Prayer in Matthew 6.

No sir, he taught us HOW to pray not recite the same exact prayer not only that where does it say or command to pray this prayer in our corporal worship service? it doesn't

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

If that is how we are going to interpret the RPW then surely those who hold to EP do not recite the Lord's prayer in worship or sing the doxology in worship or whatever Presbyterian or baptist tradition that has been incorporated into the worship service throughout church history. Afterall those things are not commanded even though its in the scripts but surely not commanded.





Thats the main issue, there is no biblical testimony for that premise its based on mere assumption. THis is what has to be proven first and in my investigation your premise has not been proven to even consider the rest of the argument. Am I the only one seeing this or what?

Jesus commands us to pray the Lord's Prayer in Matthew 6.

No sir, he taught us HOW to pray not recite the same exact prayer not only that where does it say or command to pray this prayer in our corporal worship service? it doesn't

Read Matt 6 again:

6But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you. And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. Pray, then, in this way:

'Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

 

[dcomin]

Wasn't this thread originally about instrumental music?

 

[dcomin]

If that is how we are going to interpret the RPW then surely those who hold to EP do not recite the Lord's prayer in worship or sing the doxology in worship or whatever Presbyterian or baptist tradition that has been incorporated into the worship service throughout church history. Afterall those things are not commanded even though its in the scripts but surely not commanded.

Precisely!

 

[panta dokimazete]

Wasn't this thread originally about instrumental music?

Actually it was about OT musical worship and NT musical worship, in general and specifically the Psalms being the NT template for musical worship - not just in content, but for praxis.

Hard to keep the cats herded around here .

Also - Doug - I am looking at Rev 14:3 here which has the Nestlé-Aland 26, 1894 Textus Receptus and 1991 Byzantine.

Only the 1894 TR has hos definitively placed in the text, so we may have to agree to disagree.

Back to the premise though - OT worship, even prior to the temple, had instrumental worship (synagogue worship had banned instruments as a part of rabbinical tradition) - the Psalms command instruments - even if they were in the ceremonial context, the NT worshipper is still guided by the Psalms in terms of NT worship context, content and praxis, except where specifically abrogated by the NT.

Nowhere does the NT abrogate the praxis of instruments or other activities associated with worship other than the animal sacrifice. Anything past that is pure speculation.

 

[MW]

Psalm 150:3, "Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp."

Hebrews 12:18, 19, "For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more."

 

[dcomin]

Hard to keep the cats herded around here .

Back to the premise though - OT worship, even prior to the temple, had instrumental worship (synagogue worship had banned instruments as a part of rabbinical tradition) - the Psalms command instruments - even if they were in the ceremonial context, the NT worshipper is still guided by the Psalms in terms of NT worship context, content and praxis, except where specifically abrogated by the NT.

Nowhere does the NT abrogate the praxis of instruments or other activities associated with worship other than the animal sacrifice. Anything past that is pure speculation.

Okay... I think I'm starting to see your where you're coming from, but I don't agree with your starting point - that the NT worshipper is guided by the Psalms in terms of NT worship context, content and praxis. The Psalms are not a pedagogical textbook for worship, as if all of their content is normative for the worship of the NT church. The Psalms speak about many aspects of life. Some psalms that mention musical instruments have a reference to worship. Others refer to the expression of joy in other settings. To point to every psalm that mentions instruments and say that it is normative for the corporate worship of the church would be a forced interpretation and would do violence to the specific context of many psalms.

The real issue is the nature and purpose of instruments, specifically as they were appointed by God for use in the OT corporate worship assemblies. In that light, it is not necessary to find a specific abrogation of instruments in worship in the NT, any more than it is necessary to find a specific abrogation of a table of shewbread to know that the use of such types and symbols has passed away with the coming of the anti-type.

 

[panta dokimazete]

Psalm 150:3, "Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp."

Hebrews 12:18, 19, "For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more."

This is descriptive of the presence of the Lord in the OT, not prescriptive for NT worship.

Unto the mount that might be touched, [261] etc. This sentence is
variously expounded; but it seems to me that an earthly mountain is set
in opposition to the spiritual; and the words which follow show the
same thing, that burned with fire, blackness, darkness, tempest, etc.;
for these were signs which God manifested, that he might secure
authority and reverence to his Law. [262] When considered in themselves
they were magnificent and truly celestial; but when we come to the
kingdom of Christ, the things which God exhibits to us are far above
all the heavens. It hence follows, that all the dignity of the Law
appears now earthly: thus mount Sinai might have been touched by hands;
but mount Sion cannot be known but by the spirit. All the things
recorded in the nineteenth chapter of Exodus were visible things; but
those which we have in the kingdom of Christ are hid from the senses of
the flesh. [263]

Should any one object and say, that the meaning of all these things was
spiritual, and that there are at this day external exercises of
religion by which we are carried up to heaven: to this I answer, that
the Apostle speaks comparatively; and no one can doubt but that the
Gospel, contrasted with the Law, excels in what is spiritual, but the
Law in earthly symbols.

From Calvin's commentaries

 

[Roldan]

Jesus commands us to pray the Lord's Prayer in Matthew 6.

No sir, he taught us HOW to pray not recite the same exact prayer not only that where does it say or command to pray this prayer in our corporal worship service? it doesn't

Read Matt 6 again:

6But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you. And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. Pray, then, in this way:

'Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

Thats not what Christ intended and wouldn't that be repetition and defeat the purpose of what Christ was saying but I digress, we can start another thread for that too so us cats can be herded to their liking

So can you deal with the rest of what I presented, if you want to anyways cuz this topic is pretty interesting.

 

[Roldan]

If that is how we are going to interpret the RPW then surely those who hold to EP do not recite the Lord's prayer in worship or sing the doxology in worship or whatever Presbyterian or baptist tradition that has been incorporated into the worship service throughout church history. Afterall those things are not commanded even though its in the scripts but surely not commanded.

Precisely!

Really. So even the EP's are not in agreement with the extent of the RPW, well I commend you then for being consistent, thats encouraging to me to actually see consistency with views I disagree with


Also would you mind dealing with my post, cuz I really would like to know more seems like I'm being ignored or something or if my concerns are dealt with its the secondary issues thats addressed hence the unherdable cats can't convince noone like that.

 

[Roldan]

The real issue is the nature and purpose of instruments, specifically as they were appointed by God for use in the OT corporate worship assemblies.

Yes finally! talk about that

In that light, it is not necessary to find a specific abrogation of instruments in worship in the NT, any more than it is necessary to find a specific abrogation of a table of shewbread to know that the use of such types and symbols has passed away with the coming of the anti-type.

Thats if you prove that the nature and purpose of the instruments are defined according to your supposition and or premise.

 

[MW]

and no one can doubt but that the
Gospel, contrasted with the Law, excels in what is spiritual, but the
Law in earthly symbols.

From Calvin's commentaries

So obviously the earthly symbols of the Law as prescribed in the Psalms ought not to be mingled with Gospel worship for they detract from its spirituality.

 

[panta dokimazete]

Okay... I think I'm starting to see your where you're coming from, but I don't agree with your starting point - that the NT worshipper is guided by the Psalms in terms of NT worship context, content and praxis.

This seems to go against the apostle's statement:

Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

The Psalms are not a pedagogical textbook for worship, as if all of their content is normative for the worship of the NT church.

I agree, but they certainly are a guide.

The Psalms speak about many aspects of life. Some psalms that mention musical instruments have a reference to worship. Others refer to the expression of joy in other settings. To point to every psalm that mentions instruments and say that it is normative for the corporate worship of the church would be a forced interpretation and would do violence to the specific context of many psalms.

If the Psalms are prescriptive for the NT church that worships in spirit and truth not in a Temple or on a mountain, then I have trouble accepting it would be violence to ascribe the majority of references to music, singing and instruments to worship.

The real issue is the nature and purpose of instruments, specifically as they were appointed by God for use in the OT corporate worship assemblies. In that light, it is not necessary to find a specific abrogation of instruments in worship in the NT, any more than it is necessary to find a specific abrogation of a table of shewbread to know that the use of such types and symbols has passed away with the coming of the anti-type.

Musical worship in the OT is inextricably tied to vocal and instrumental expression - we are shown how sacrifice and the merely ceremonial elements have been abrogated. Nothing is lost, but a greater substitution is made.

Nowhere have we been shown that a greater substitution has been made for the musical expression of OT worship. Voice and instrument have been used to worship God before the Temple and have not been silenced by NT decree - on the contrary - in terms of musical worship we are pointed to the Psalms as our guide. The Psalms that are fully illuminated by the coming of the Anointed One. This truly allows God's songbook to be a template and guide for God honoring worship in spirit and truth in the life of the NT church.

Psalm 33

1Sing for joy in the LORD, O you righteous ones;
Praise is becoming to the upright.
2Give thanks to the LORD with the lyre;
Sing praises to Him with a harp of ten strings.
3Sing to Him a new song;
Play skillfully with a shout of joy.

 

[Roldan]

[
Nowhere have we been shown that a greater substitution has been made for the musical expression of OT worship. Voice and instrument have been used to worship God before the Temple and have not been silenced by NT decree - on the contrary - in terms of musical worship we are pointed to the Psalms as our guide. The Psalms that are fully illuminated by the coming of the Anointed One. This truly allows God's songbook to be a template and guide for God honoring worship in spirit and truth in the life of the NT church.

Yes

 

[dcomin]

Sorry Ricky... didn't mean to ignore you.

First let me say that Girardeau's exposition on the abrogation of OT ceremonial laws etc. was very good in my opinion and he articulates his points very well, not to mention reading his bio and being impressed with his passion for racial unity being the first to elect and ordain black elders and such and having a multicultural church of 1500 blacks and white, man what happened to us?

Amen to that! I'd like to see a new thread on the issue of racial unity in the church.

But with that said, I cannot see, or in my opinion, I don't think he or the sources he used such as Calvin, Zwingli etc.. made that good of a case for the ceremonial usage of ALL instruments hence lumping in instruments with ceremonial temple worship consequently then asserting that instruments were nailed to the cross in Christ/abrogated, HUH? To me it seems like a logical fallacy. I didn't see the connection at all but thats just me.

Girardeau's point was not that ALL instruments were used ceremonially, but that the appointment of the use of ANY instruments in the corporate worship assemblies of Israel was by divine prescription and that God appointed the use of certain instruments in the corporate assembly as part of the typical and ceremonial worship that pointed forward to Christ.

This is what I got from the whole argument..

Instruments were used in ceremonial temple worship+ceremonial temple worship has been abrogated=instruments have been abrogated

Yeah I know there were other arguments but I think this is the jist of the argument. So if you take away the instruments were only used in ceremonial worship premise the rest crumbles in my book(not that I wrote one )

Your first statement says "Instruments were used in ceremonial worship" but then you change the formula when you say "if you take away the instruments were ONLY used in ceremonial worship premise the rest crumbles." No one has ever claimed that instruments were ONLY used in ceremonial worship. There have been many legitimate and godly uses of instruments throughout history. The point is that corporate worship is a special activity, and that the activities and elements of corporate worship are purposefully and particularly regulated by God's own design and prescription. The use of any instruments in Israel's worship assemblies could not have been introduced merely by the whim or preference of the worshippers. Nothing was to be implemented in corporate worship without an explicit command from God. So, when God implemented, by His command through His prophets, the Levitical use of harps and psalteries and cymbals, it was for a specific purpose. That purpose was not accompaniment of the singing, which is the way that we use instruments today. 2 Chronicles 29 tells us that the Levites played loudly on the instruments over the blood sacrifice. The use of the instruments that were appointed was connected with the offering. They were part of the ceremonial and typical worship of the temple.

So, let me modify the statement of Girardeau's argument as I understand it:

Premise 1 - God appointed the particular instruments that were used in OT worship as an integral part of the ceremonial worship of Israel, which was a type of Christ.

Premise 2 - Jesus fulfilled the types and shadows of Israel's ceremonial worship.

Conclusion - Therefore the ceremonial use of instruments has been abrogated in the NT era, along with all other ceremonial elements of worship.

Stated this way, it's clear that the pivotal issue is establishing the premise that the use of musical instruments in Israel's worship was, in fact, a part of the typical and ceremonial worship - like the incense and the shewbread and the sacrifice. Girardeau, Calvin, and the host of others cited in Girardeau's book saw strong Biblical warrant for this conclusion.

Girardeau even spoke of Miriam who used an instrument to sing praises to our LORD but that it was not in a temple worship setting which to me would go against the view of Girardeau who would have us to believe that instruments were finally brought into the temple worship as some shadow of a future joy and blessing etc... and proves that in Jewish culture they used instruments to sing praises to God, are we to assume that the Remnant of Israel did not practice family worship in their homes? If Miriam included one in her personal worship what makes us think others didn't? Worship is worship temple or no temple the OT makes it clear that true worship is in SPIRIT and in truth as also point being made by God with circumcision which was also ceremonial but pointed to an inward reality(sorry my Baptist brothas hehe) hence the command to circumcise the heart with the flesh.

Here, I would make a clear distinction between the gathered corporate worship of God's people and other settings of worship, such as family worship or personal devotions. I know that many insist that worship is worship regardless of the setting, or that "all of life is worship" and therefore it is not proper to suppose that a different set of rules governs "formal" worship as opposed to "informal" worship. I believe, however, that the Scriptures plainly indicate that God sets the corporate gathered worship of His people apart from the rest of life and governs that activity in a different way. So while it may be perfectly acceptable to play instruments in other settings to the glory of God, their use in corporate worship would only be allowable if God commands their use there. David was a gifted and skillful musician who used instruments and singing in many settings to glorify God. But David did not bring instruments into the corporate worship of God's people until God specifically commanded him to do so, and even then, David took care to use them only as God commanded. True worship is spirit and TRUTH. Proper form without a right heart toward God is vain. But so is fervency of heart without God's appointed and true form.

Also if intruments were a shadow of joy in the coming inward gift of the Holy Spirit, why would the OT saints REAL joy be a shadow of our REAL joy makes no sense to me, and the point that the OT generation at that time was carnal and a dead audience (as if this one isn't ) so God incorporated instruments to spice up the crowd is a weird point In my humble opinion.

I don't think God incorporated instruments to "spice up the crowd" or to help them express some artificial sense of joy. The joy they had in God was real joy. But their understanding of the fullness of God's revelation of salvation in Christ and the full outpouring of the Holy Spirit was incomplete and limited. The Scripts teach that Israel was like a child under age, and needed "tutors" and "helps" to flesh out the full picture of what was yet to be revealed. So the fact that God gave them lots of outward elements to help them to understand things not yet revealed doesn't seem weird to me at all. They knew how to pray, but God still appointed incense to picture the prayers of the saints going up to God through the Mediator yet to come.

But anyways I had other things to say but I just can't seem to articulate them right now so I'll meditate alittle more.

Meditation prior to articulation is always a good thing. I need to learn to practice that discipline more myself.

 

[TimV]

So obviously the earthly symbols of the Law as prescribed in the Psalms ought not to be mingled with Gospel worship for they detract from its spirituality.

Will they detract from worship in the New Earth? How would you formulate that?

Musical instruments symbols of law in Old Covenant so are good
Musical instruments symbols of law in New Covenant so are bad
Musical instruments symbols of something in New Creation so are good

What would that something be?

 

[dcomin]

Okay... I think I'm starting to see your where you're coming from, but I don't agree with your starting point - that the NT worshipper is guided by the Psalms in terms of NT worship context, content and praxis.

This seems to go against the apostle's statement:

Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

Not at all, unless you assume that all teaching and admonishing is a direct instruction about what should be done in the context of corporate worship. Certainly we are guided by the Psalms in precisely the same way that we are guided by all of Scripture - it is our only infallible rule for faith and life. So, when we sing the psalms, we are teaching and admonishing one another because we are corporately singing God's word. The applications of the psalms, then, direct us in what we do - not only in our worship assemblies, but in every part of our lives. The specific application is dictated by the purpose and context of the particular psalm that is sung.

If the Psalms are prescriptive for the NT church that worships in spirit and truth not in a Temple or on a mountain, then I have trouble accepting it would be violence to ascribe the majority of references to music, singing and instruments to worship.

It may be so that the majority of references to music in the psalms refer to public worship. My point is that not ALL of them do, and to force that construction on ALL of the Psalms simply because they are given for USE in public worship is a forced interpretation.

The real issue is the nature and purpose of instruments, specifically as they were appointed by God for use in the OT corporate worship assemblies. In that light, it is not necessary to find a specific abrogation of instruments in worship in the NT, any more than it is necessary to find a specific abrogation of a table of shewbread to know that the use of such types and symbols has passed away with the coming of the anti-type.

Musical worship in the OT is inextricably tied to vocal and instrumental expression - we are shown how sacrifice and the merely ceremonial elements have been abrogated. Nothing is lost, but a greater substitution is made.

Nowhere have we been shown that a greater substitution has been made for the musical expression of OT worship. Voice and instrument have been used to worship God before the Temple and have not been silenced by NT decree - on the contrary - in terms of musical worship we are pointed to the Psalms as our guide. The Psalms that are fully illuminated by the coming of the Anointed One. This truly allows God's songbook to be a template and guide for God honoring worship in spirit and truth in the life of the NT church.

Hebrews 13:14-15 "For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come. Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name."

Psalm 33

1Sing for joy in the LORD, O you righteous ones;
Praise is becoming to the upright.
2Give thanks to the LORD with the lyre;
Sing praises to Him with a harp of ten strings.
3Sing to Him a new song;
Play skillfully with a shout of joy.

Psalm 51

18 Do good in Your good pleasure to Zion;
Build the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then You shall be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness,
With burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
Then they shall offer bulls on Your altar.

 

[panta dokimazete]

Okay... I think I'm starting to see your where you're coming from, but I don't agree with your starting point - that the NT worshipper is guided by the Psalms in terms of NT worship context, content and praxis.

This seems to go against the apostle's statement:

Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

Not at all, unless you assume that all teaching and admonishing is a direct instruction about what should be done in the context of corporate worship. Certainly we are guided by the Psalms in precisely the same way that we are guided by all of Scripture - it is our only infallible rule for faith and life. So, when we sing the psalms, we are teaching and admonishing one another because we are corporately singing God's word. The applications of the psalms, then, direct us in what we do - not only in our worship assemblies, but in every part of our lives. The specific application is dictated by the purpose and context of the particular psalm that is sung.

Why must it be either/or? What better guide for corporate worship do we have that covers more elements and behavior than the Psalms? Don't you think that is why we are instructed by the apostle to use them in the context of worship? Particularly since there is such a paucity of instruction in terms of worship specifics in the NT. The apostle rightfully directs the NT beliver to the source of worship guidance, not to the specifics of incomplete Temple worship, but to the now illuminated songbook of the Lord that not only contains the actual songs, but the perfect template for new songs and the context for the preparation, practice and perfection of worship and praise!

It may be so that the majority of references to music in the psalms refer to public worship. My point is that not ALL of them do, and to force that construction on ALL of the Psalms simply because they are given for USE in public worship is a forced interpretation.

That is not my intent, nor my proposal. While ALL Psalms are for use in worship - MANY Psalms direct\guide the NT church in proper content, context and practice.

Musical worship in the OT is inextricably tied to vocal and instrumental expression - we are shown how sacrifice and the merely ceremonial elements have been abrogated. Nothing is lost, but a greater substitution is made.

Nowhere have we been shown that a greater substitution has been made for the musical expression of OT worship. Voice and instrument have been used to worship God before the Temple and have not been silenced by NT decree - on the contrary - in terms of musical worship we are pointed to the Psalms as our guide. The Psalms that are fully illuminated by the coming of the Anointed One. This truly allows God's songbook to be a template and guide for God honoring worship in spirit and truth in the life of the NT church.

Hebrews 13:14-15 "For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come. Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name."

yes...and? I believe that this is in reference to the work of Christ through the Holy Spirit and the effect it produces in the believer in prayer, singing, preaching, proclaiming, etc...

Psalm 33

1Sing for joy in the LORD, O you righteous ones;
Praise is becoming to the upright.
2Give thanks to the LORD with the lyre;
Sing praises to Him with a harp of ten strings.
3Sing to Him a new song;
Play skillfully with a shout of joy.

you responded with:

Psalm 51

18 Do good in Your good pleasure to Zion;
Build the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then You shall be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness,
With burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
Then they shall offer bulls on Your altar.

I think I acknowledged the greater and perfect substitution of Christ in terms of animal sacrifice in Temple worship in the OP, so we no longer practice this in worship. Are you intimating that the verse you quoted above abrogates the command to praise God with music?

The continuity of praise in worship does not change in type or practice from the OT to the NT.

Musical praise through songs and instruments in the worship of God is a role\responsibility of the church. That's what we are commanded to do and what the Psalms enable us to do.

 

[Roldan]

Girardeau's point was not that ALL instruments were used ceremonially, but that the appointment of the use of ANY instruments in the corporate worship assemblies of Israel was by divine prescription and that God appointed the use of certain instruments in the corporate assembly as part of the typical and ceremonial worship that pointed forward to Christ.

Got it.

Your first statement says "Instruments were used in ceremonial worship" but then you change the formula when you say "if you take away the instruments were ONLY used in ceremonial worship premise the rest crumbles." No one has ever claimed that instruments were ONLY used in ceremonial worship. There have been many legitimate and godly uses of instruments throughout history. The point is that corporate worship is a special activity, and that the activities and elements of corporate worship are purposefully and particularly regulated by God's own design and prescription. The use of any instruments in Israel's worship assemblies could not have been introduced merely by the whim or preference of the worshippers. Nothing was to be implemented in corporate worship without an explicit command from God. So, when God implemented, by His command through His prophets, the Levitical use of harps and psalteries and cymbals, it was for a specific purpose. That purpose was not accompaniment of the singing, which is the way that we use instruments today. 2 Chronicles 29 tells us that the Levites played loudly on the instruments over the blood sacrifice. The use of the instruments that were appointed was connected with the offering. They were part of the ceremonial and typical worship of the temple.

Emphasis mine to which I would like to ask a question or two.

If this is the case and it wasn't used for singing, then why are we not using the Psalms as our criteria and the Lords command as defended by Panta not a valid one?

Conclusion - Therefore the ceremonial use of instruments has been abrogated in the NT era, along with all other ceremonial elements of worship.

Stated this way, it's clear that the pivotal issue is establishing the premise that the use of musical instruments in Israel's worship was, in fact, a part of the typical and ceremonial worship - like the incense and the shewbread and the sacrifice. Girardeau, Calvin, and the host of others cited in Girardeau's book saw strong Biblical warrant for this conclusion.

Ok but thats irrelevant because those instruments weren't used for singing and is not the same situation. But as Panta has pointed out the Psalms COMMAND us, it doesn't say if we feel like it, to use instruments when singing praises to and worshipping Jehova, does it not? Just because it doesn't explicitly say "use when praising and worshipping together as a whole body in a building corporal setting" doesn't take away from the fact that the Psalms directs us to use them in when worshipping privately or not. I think it should be clear.

Here, I would make a clear distinction between the gathered corporate worship of God's people and other settings of worship, such as family worship or personal devotions. I know that many insist that worship is worship regardless of the setting, or that "all of life is worship" and therefore it is not proper to suppose that a different set of rules governs "formal" worship as opposed to "informal" worship. I believe, however, that the Scriptures plainly indicate that God sets the corporate gathered worship of His people apart from the rest of life and governs that activity in a different way. So while it may be perfectly acceptable to play instruments in other settings to the glory of God, their use in corporate worship would only be allowable if God commands their use there.

So we can be free to worship God in a private or family setting or informal setting and God is pleased and glorified but when we come together as a whole body in a formal setting which is a much more better gathering we can't use these same instruments that are used to praise God? IDK man I don't buy it.

David was a gifted and skillful musician who used instruments and singing in many settings to glorify God. But David did not bring instruments into the corporate worship of God's people until God specifically commanded him to do so, and even then, David took care to use them only as God commanded.

But like you said, it wasn't used for singing if it was David would have brought them in and been a worship leader.

True worship is spirit and TRUTH. Proper form without a right heart toward God is vain. But so is fervency of heart without God's appointed and true form.

I agree.

I don't think God incorporated instruments to "spice up the crowd" or to help them express some artificial sense of joy.

I only stated that because that was a point made in G's argument.

 

[dcomin]

If this is the case and it wasn't used for singing, then why are we not using the Psalms as our criteria and the Lords command as defended by Panta not a valid one?

It was perfectly appropriate for the Psalms, which were written in the OT era, to command God's people to do all kinds of things that were associated with the ceremonial law. Many Psalms command God's people to offer sacrifice. But we don't do that now because the sacrifice has been fulfilled by Christ. When we as NT believers sing these Psalms about sacrifice, we don't take them as commands to go out and slaughter bulls and goats - we take them as references to Christ and we praise God through them for providing the ultimate sacrifice. Likewise, when we sing Psalms that command the ceremonial use of musical instruments, we understand that we have a greater inward and spiritual joy than the joy that those instruments only pictured in an outward way.

Having said that, there are other Psalms that command the employment of musical instruments to glorify God outside of a formal corporate worship setting. That use of instruments was never part of the ceremonial system, and we are certainly to take every opportunity to praise God with the musical talents that He has given to us. But the context of corporate worship is and always has been a special and carefully regulated activity.

Ok but thats irrelevant because those instruments weren't used for singing and is not the same situation. But as Panta has pointed out the Psalms COMMAND us, it doesn't say if we feel like it, to use instruments when singing praises to and worshipping Jehova, does it not? Just because it doesn't explicitly say "use when praising and worshipping together as a whole body in a building corporal setting" doesn't take away from the fact that the Psalms directs us to use them in when worshipping privately or not. I think it should be clear.

It doesn't have to say "use when praising and worshipping together as a whole body, etc." We have a duty to understand the context of the commands of Scripture from the testimony of the whole counsel of God and to discern what commands refer to formal worship assemblies and what commands apply to other settings.

Again, some of the Psalms COMMAND us to offer burnt sacrifices. Why don't we do this? Because Christ has fulfilled the ceremonial law. If the liturgical use of musical instruments was part of the ceremonial law, then the same thing applies to those commands in the Psalms that refer to using instruments in corporate worship.

So we can be free to worship God in a private or family setting or informal setting and God is pleased and glorified but when we come together as a whole body in a formal setting which is a much more better gathering we can't use these same instruments that are used to praise God? IDK man I don't buy it.

The key question here is "What is the purpose of formal corporate worship?" If worship is just about expressing our feelings toward God, then it's difficult to make a distinction between individual, family, or corporate worship. But I would argue that God's intended purpose for corporate worship centers upon the revelation of Christ to our hearts through His Word. In the OT that revelation was fleshed out for God's people through numerous outward and physical activities that all pointed to Jesus and the work that He would accomplish for His people. That's why they were strictly commanded not to add to or take away from any of the details of the ceremonial system - the details of the ceremonies were the gospel - they pointed to Jesus. To mess with them was to obscure the message of salvation through Christ alone and to add the works of men. Now that Christ has come, all of those typical elements have been taken out of the way, and the NT church is left with the MORE glorious, but inward and spiritual, realities of His finished work. If we start adding those outward and physical elements into worship again, we are obscuring the truth that Christ has done it all.

There is alot I could say about the distinction between public worship assemblies and other types of activities, but that would involve another LONG thread of discussion. I actually deal with that question at some length in my book, Worship from Genesis to Revelation.

But like you said, it wasn't used for singing if it was David would have brought them in and been a worship leader.

David DID bring them in, but only when God commanded it and only in the particular way that God commanded them to be employed. And David committed the use of those instruments, which he made himself, to the priests and Levites because it was a specific priestly function.

 

[timmopussycat]

Again, some of the Psalms COMMAND us to offer burnt sacrifices. Why don't we do this? Because Christ has fulfilled the ceremonial law. If the liturgical use of musical instruments was part of the ceremonial law, then the same thing applies to those commands in the Psalms that refer to using instruments in corporate worship.

The use of instruments in worship was commanded by the Lord through David 400 years after Sinai and was no part of the ceremonial law.

Girardeau's point was not that ALL instruments were used ceremonially, but that the appointment of the use of ANY instruments in the corporate worship assemblies of Israel was by divine prescription and that God appointed the use of certain instruments in the corporate assembly as part of the typical and ceremonial worship that pointed forward to Christ.

... Nothing was to be implemented in corporate worship without an explicit command from God. So, when God implemented, by His command through His prophets, the Levitical use of harps and psalteries and cymbals, it was for a specific purpose. That purpose was not accompaniment of the singing, which is the way that we use instruments today. 2 Chronicles 29 tells us that the Levites played loudly on the instruments over the blood sacrifice. The use of the instruments that were appointed was connected with the offering. They were part of the ceremonial and typical worship of the temple.

There are a bunch of other Scriptures that explicitly enjoin the use of instruments to accompany sung praise. (2 Chron 9:11, Ps. 33:2, 71:22 etc.)

So, let me modify the statement of Girardeau's argument as I understand it:

Premise 1 - God appointed the particular instruments that were used in OT worship as an integral part of the ceremonial worship of Israel, which was a type of Christ.

Girardeau errs. God's appointment of instruments was not integral to the ceremonial aspect of the Sinai covenant. Had it been integral, Moses would have been the legislator. What we have here is a supplementary practice given later. Given the error in his premise, the syllogism fails.

Premise 2 - Jesus fulfilled the types and shadows of Israel's ceremonial worship.

Conclusion - Therefore the ceremonial use of instruments has been abrogated in the NT era, along with all other ceremonial elements of worship.

Stated this way, it's clear that the pivotal issue is establishing the premise that the use of musical instruments in Israel's worship was, in fact, a part of the typical and ceremonial worship - like the incense and the shewbread and the sacrifice. Girardeau, Calvin, and the host of others cited in Girardeau's book saw strong Biblical warrant for this conclusion.

You do not cite the biblical warrant, just the authorities. Ad fontes please!

Moreover, although the Sinai covenant is fulfilled in Christ, we do not conclude that all that covenant has become invalid today. Since the use of in instruments to accompany sung praise was prescribed by God it was a fitting way to praise him. Since God has not changed it remains a fitting way to praise him, even though the ceremonies are fulfilled in Christ. Thus the use of instruments to accompany sung praise remains valid by general equity.