Original Sin Debate

Discussion in 'Calvinism & The Doctrines of Grace' started by charliejunfan, Oct 26, 2009.

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  1. charliejunfan

    charliejunfan Puritan Board Senior

    Here is a debate about Original Sin, the Calvinist does a great job but the Synergist twists things and is very deceitful with semantics and hermeneutics.

  2. proverbs31woman

    proverbs31woman Puritan Board Freshman

    How far are you into "Original Sin"? Like if we refer to a child, do you really believe they are sinful just before they are born9as in scripture it says"your mother bore you or conceived you in sin"), or are you like a great deal of MacArthur followers who preach of a child being "innocent' until a certain age?

    I agree with Greg bahnsen on the issue, if you have any doubt on Original Sin--just stick 2 two year old in a year with one toy, and we will assured of original sin. We dont need to teach a child to 'not listen', they already know it by nature. I didnt listen to all of the above message, but I certainly plan to. Just wondering where exactly or what degree is your belief of original sin?

    -----Added 10/26/2009 at 02:46:02 EST-----

    haha, I wrote "year" instead of room.........whoa typo!
  3. awretchsavedbygrace

    awretchsavedbygrace Puritan Board Sophomore

    Macarthur followers? Are we talking about John Macarthur? Surely he must of taught it inorder for his followers to preach it.

    Do you have any sources or links where Macarthur says this?
  4. proverbs31woman

    proverbs31woman Puritan Board Freshman

    I have often tried to figure out that myself, I have 5 different people claim he does, so that can be rather frustrating. although they have never handed me a paper proving their point, it seems to be rampid among him............but it would be awesome if you had something that would prove otherwise. but while I was doing research on child training, I know I did find that he did not believe in disciplining a small child..... Im trying to find that article.......

    -----Added 10/26/2009 at 02:59:11 EST-----

    This may be off topic. but what are your beliefs on a child who dies, going to Hell or Heaven?
  5. charliejunfan

    charliejunfan Puritan Board Senior

    I believe of course that infants are born sinful, they only have a desire for sin and of course anything done without faith is sin (Romans 14:23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.).

    I have heard from John Piper that there maybe a way for infants to be considered "innocent" despite their unregenerate/sinful heart and the verse used is, Romans 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

    The thought is that since the earth being SEEN is the reason used in this verse for God being just in condemning man and man having no excuse then Piper says that infants cannot SEE the earth and what was made, so therefore they could be judicially seen as innocent although they have only a sinful heart. In Piper's defense he tells people to be careful though when making this logical conclusion and says to ultimately trust that God is Just in whatever happens to infants.

    I like Piper's idea, although I think that Romans 1:20 is only one verse and that considering Romans 5:19 (For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous) we can logically conclude that God Judicially sees even infants as condemned.

    I stick by WCoF Chapter X which says that elect infants will be saved, so it is a matter of God electing infants, I don't know how many but I like to think that He elects a whole lot considering that it would be a great way to show His glory. Imagine, God in his power shows us that He has saved the weakest thing, an infant, out of His mere grace and mercy, an infant can't DO anything when in the womb. It would be a great testimony of how HE ALONE saved, that it is HIS WORK ALONE.

    But, again, it is just my opinion that God elected a ton of people to be righteous in Christ and to die while being infants, I would never say that God elected them BECAUSE they were infants.

    Macarthur wrote a book called SAFE in the Arms of God about how all infants go to heaven.
    I became a Calvinist through Macarthur's teaching and even met the guy, but he is a start and only that.
  6. mossy

    mossy Puritan Board Freshman

    Here is a quote from an article by John MacArthur entitled "Your Childs Greatest Need". If you google it you will find it.

    "If you've been a parent for any time at all, it shouldn't come as much of a surprise that your child came into the world with an insatiable faculty for evil. Even before birth, your baby's little heart was already programmed for sin and selfishness. The inclination toward depravity is such that, given free reign, every baby has the potential to become a monster.

    Original sin is the biblical doctrine that explains your child's sinful proclivity. It means children do not come into the world seeking God and righteousness. They do not even come into the world with a neutral innocence. They come into the world seeking the fulfillment of sinful and selfish desires. Scripture also teaches a doctrine called total depravity, referring to the extent of original sin. Although the outworking of the sin nature does not necessarily attain full expression in everyone's behavior, it is nonetheless called total depravity because there is no aspect of the human personality, character, mind, emotions, or will that is free from the corruption of sin or immune to sin's enticements.

    Put bluntly, sin is not learned—it is an inbred disposition. Your kids got their sinful nature from you, you got it from your parents, your parents got it from their parents, and so on, all the way back to Adam. In other words, Adam's fall tainted the entire human race with sin. Both the guilt and the corruption of sin are universal. The apostle Paul wrote, "Through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned" (Rom. 5:12, emphasis added). "Through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men" (v. 18), meaning we inherited the guilt of sin. And "through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners" (v. 19), meaning we inherited the corruption of sin. No one is exempt. No one is born truly innocent."

    It is clear from this at least that you may have gotten some bad info on what John teaches about infants and original sin.

  7. proverbs31woman

    proverbs31woman Puritan Board Freshman

    Thanks Terry, I will have to read and check that site out, so I can better understand what he is into. I cant say i trust him. But I was positive someone had read me off something about original sin. Thanks evermore. I did check this link out and was left sort of questionable about it.(http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/06/04/t...ccountability/)but I am not sure what he is referring to as innocent at the end.
  8. charliejunfan

    charliejunfan Puritan Board Senior

    Well that is good to hear, I haven't read Safe in the Arms of God by Macarthur so maybe he makes a case for the total salvation of infants because of election instead of innocence, I don't know.
  9. proverbs31woman

    proverbs31woman Puritan Board Freshman


    I would agree with the thought that Christ saves those who are his elect-whether child or adult. I try to leave the judging to God, and God alone.

    As for MacArthur, I am not completely against him, and yes I feel the same as he is a starter. I like some of his books, such as "The Truth War" and "Fools gold". although I know we differentiate between areas of Christian Worship, possibly original sin as I understand it now(until I learn more of him and can be proved otherwise), and birth control. Hmmm, WCF- a trustworthy book to read! :-D Thanks again.
  10. awretchsavedbygrace

    awretchsavedbygrace Puritan Board Sophomore

    There is some confusion here. I want to reference you Terry to a article Shawna sent me written by John Macarthur (http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/06/04/t...ccountability/ ). I read the article. It seems as Macarthur is NOT saying that there isnt original sin until a certain age (as I thought thats what Shawna was saying), but that despite this original sin the child who hasnt reached "the age of accountability" will be saved if he dies before that "age of accountability".

    My whole thing is.. if scripture doesnt teach it, dont assume. But I know believers who have lost a child at a young age and they would like to know. Maybe we can point them to what scripture does teach. That God is Just,and Good. And whatever the fate of these children, God knows best.
  11. proverbs31woman

    proverbs31woman Puritan Board Freshman

    I would certainly hope for the best, since I think children are so precious. Although, I guess in logic I have felt that because Gods knows everything He would know the fate of everyone whether the live to be 45 or 2 days--Christ will put babies where they belong. Ultimately He knows, what a wonderful God we serve! :-D
  12. awretchsavedbygrace

    awretchsavedbygrace Puritan Board Sophomore

    Sorry for getting off topic, Charles.
  13. proverbs31woman

    proverbs31woman Puritan Board Freshman

    Yes but at the same time it was interesting.And it wasnt completely off topic. It did relate to Original Sin........... I do have a question though. Before I watch the rest of that video, what does "refining Fire Radio" support, like background, or president? just wondering as to what I am getting into.
  14. charliejunfan

    charliejunfan Puritan Board Senior

    It's ok if it goes off topic Julio, thanks for the apology though
  15. TKarrer

    TKarrer Puritan Board Freshman

    I believe John MacArthur does in fact make a solid case as to why we can trust that all infants go to heaven when they die.

    First off, King David states his son, who died in infancy, would not be resurrected, but that he, David, would go to him. Did all of David's sons bear out the marks of an elect saint? No. How then did David know this particular child would be allowed entrance into heaven? David understood that God's special grace extends to those who have never "supressed the truth in unrighteouness", nor rejected the testimony of creation. He knew those "without excuse" surely have though.

    The Apostle Paul's masterful work on the just condemnation of all humanity begins at this point: Man is condemned, 1. Because he sears his conscience and rejects the witness of truth God provides him, and 2. Because he rejects the revelation of God given through God's handiwork. This is why the unrepentant sinner who never hears the Gospel preached is still guilty before God; not merely due to Adam's sin, but because he has utterly refused to repent, though God has manifested Himself to him. Romans 1 is explicit on this subject.

    MacArthur upholds the essence of the Reformed understanding of Romans 5:12- the curse of death has spread to all men; but that is not simply due to Adam's sin, but to ours as well: "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned". In this sense, Adam's sin and guilt are imputed; we are condemned before God if grace is not given us. But herein lies the very basis for which we assert that God's electing grace extends to those who have never excercised human reason and volition in supressing God's natural revelation, Paul specifies that "all have sinned"- the culpability of man lay especially in his "supressing the truth in unrighteousness"; it lay in his sin, and not simply Adam's.

    This has been the position held by no small number of learned Reformed theologians. The following is an excerpt from Lorraine Boettner's work, "The Doctrine of Predestination":

    "Our outstanding theologians, however, mindful of the fact that God's "tender mercies are over all His works," and depending on His mercy widened as broadly as possible, have entertained a charitable hope that since these infants have never committed any actual sin themselves, their inherited sin would be pardoned and they would be saved on wholly evangelical principles.

    Such, for instance, was the position held by Charles Hodge, W. G. T. Shedd, and B. B. Warfield. Concerning those who die in infancy, Dr. Warfield says: "Their destiny is determined irrespective of their choice, by an unconditional decree of God, suspended for its execution on no act of their own; and their salvation is wrought by an unconditional application of the grace of Christ to their souls, through the immediate and irresistible operation of the Holy Spirit prior to and apart from any action of their own proper wills . . . And if death in infancy does depend on God's providence, it is assuredly God in His providence who selects this vast multitude to be made participants of His unconditional salvation . . . This is but to say that they are unconditionally predestinated to salvation from the foundation of the world. If only a single infant dying in irresponsible infancy be saved, the whole Arminian principle is traversed. If all infants dying such are saved, not only the majority of the saved, but doubtless the majority of the human race hitherto, have entered into life by a non-Arminian pathway....

    Calvin's views in this respect have been quite thoroughly investigated by Dr. R. A. Webb and his findings are summarized in the following paragraph: "Calvin teaches that all the reprobate 'procure' -- (that is his own word) -- 'procure' their own destruction; and they procure their destruction by their own personal and conscious acts of such must live to the age of moral accountability, and translate original sin into actual sin" (Calvin Memorial Address, p 112). This excerpt can be read in it's entirety at Calvinism Soteriology Topics
  16. proverbs31woman

    proverbs31woman Puritan Board Freshman

    I tend to fall along the lines of this following page, but I am still open to what you have written above. God can only teach us if we have open hearts. So I reply to this only as a statement of what I tend towards. Thank-you for your response, I will continue to search this all out.;)

    The Reasons Given By People For Justification Of A Child Going To Heaven:

    * God is a loving God.
    * Because there is no original sin.
    * Sins are covered in Christ's atoning death.
    * Unconditional election.
    * Children are used as a perfect example by Christ.
    * Adam's sin only caused physical death.
    * Little children are not capable of sinning.
    * Where there is no law, there is no punishment.
    * No justification by faith.
    * By the grace of God.
    * In Christ all are made alive.
    * I would like to believe.
    * The Israelites were punished for their sins in the wilderness but their children would inherit the land. Those under 20 years of age.
    * A baby has not heard the Gospel, so can't accept it.
    * We are free agents, All have sinned that are capable of sinning. Little children do not fall into that category.
    * In the case of infants, the atonement of Christ provides for them.
    * Adam's sin took root when he became aware of the differences in choices this life offers. Until then, we are innocent creatures and Paul writes in Romans that people are held accountable to their knowledge.
    * It gives me great comfort to believe.
    * Even if there wasn't any scripture could you see our wonderful God sending an innocent baby to hell with all the demons?
    * Jesus compares the qualifying factor of getting into heaven as being like a little child.

    Verses Given For Why A Baby Or Child Will Go To Hell


    These verses were put forth by many persons as the reasons why a baby or child will go to hell.

    Psalms 58:1

    1. <<To the chief Musician, Altaschith, Michtam of David.>> Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men?
    2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
    3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
    4 Their poison [is] like the poison of a serpent: [they are] like the deaf adder [that] stoppeth her ear;

    (This says that it is after they are born that they start speaking lies. They say here that there is no exception.)

    Psalms 51:5

    5 Behold, I was shaped in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

    (If you are conceived in sin then you have to be born in sin.)

    Romans 6:23

    23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    (If you are not old enough to know Jesus then you can not have salvation)

    Romans 3:10

    10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

    (If there is no one who is righteous, then a baby or small child isn't righteous and therefor can't go to heaven.)

    2 Peter 2:14

    14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
    15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam [the son] of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

    (Children are cursed therefore they do not have salvation)

    Romans 5:12

    12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
    13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

    (This does not make a distinction between babies and adults. For all have sinned. How can a baby be pure if all have sinned?)

    Romans 5:18

    18 Therefore, as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

    (We are all cursed for Adams sake.)

    Genesis 2:17

    17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    Job 14:1

    1. Man [that is] born of a woman [is] of few days, and full of trouble.

    1 Corinthians 15:22

    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    (All die unless they accept Christ and a baby or young child is not able to accept Christ so they are condemned.)

    Romans 9:11

    11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

    (You are only saved if you have been elected by God. If not you go to hell.)

    Ephesians 2:1

    1. And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
    2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
    3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
    4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
    6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
    7 That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    (These verses say that all of us start out dead because of sin and that children are disobedient so the children are the children of wrath. So they have no salvation because they do not have any faith.)

    Ephesians 5:5

    5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

    (Babies are unclean because of Adam's sin.)

    1 Corinthians 7:14

    14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

    (Says that your children were unclean.)

    1 John 1:8

    8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    (If we say that babies have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves.)

    Romans 7:14

    14. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
    15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
    16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good.
    17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.

    (Sin dwells in us, and no one can go to heaven with sin.)

    Genesis 8:21

    21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savor; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

    (A young man is evil.)

    Proverbs 22:15

    15. Foolishness [is] bound in the heart of a child; [but] the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

    (A child goes to hell because they are foolish.)

    Ecclesiastes 11:10

    10 Therefore remove sorrow from thy heart, and put away evil from thy flesh: for childhood and youth [are] vanity.

    John 3:3

    3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    (You have to be born again for salvation and a baby or child has not been born again.)

    John 3:5

    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    (You can't enter heaven without water baptism.)

    Micah 7:2

    2 The good [man] is perished out of the earth: and [there is] none upright among men: they all lie in wait for blood; they hunt every man his brother with a net.

    (Since no one is upright a child or baby in not upright.)

    John 14:6

    6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    (Since babies can not come to Jesus they are not saved.)

    Hebrews 11:6

    6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

    (Babies and children are too young to believe so they can not come to God.)

    Romans 10:10

    10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    (A baby or young child can not confess with their mouth so they can not be saved.)

    Reasons Given By People For A Child Going To Hell.

    * Unconditional election
    * You must make a statement of faith.
    * You must be baptized.
    * Original sin.
    * There is no age of accountability in the Bible.
    * There are none righteous.
    * Inherited sin from Adam
    * Everybody is under the wrath of God.
    * Conceptual sin
    * God compares a baby with a serpent or snake.
    * Babies are under the wrath of God
  17. charliejunfan

    charliejunfan Puritan Board Senior

    Hey Thomas, thanks for posting all that. I am not sure I agree but it is interesting and I would love to believe that all infants go to heaven.
    I think this view should effect Baptism and the Lord's Supper when it comes to infants, not just infants of believers but unbelievers as well. I like that these theologians(I have read Boettner's work which you quoted) seem as if they are not making the claim that it is a SURE thing, but rather just trying to solve problems and give hope.
  18. steven-nemes

    steven-nemes Puritan Board Sophomore

    Perhaps some infants go to hell, but perhaps also their punishment is not the same as, say, a Hitler's.
  19. proverbs31woman

    proverbs31woman Puritan Board Freshman

    Also Thanks for replying "TKarrer", I highly appreciate those who take a stand for Christ and are willing to speak about these things. So thanks for not being like the majority of hypocritical Christians who say they are Christians yet their actions prove otherwise. besides that, how else may others learn and change their view if no one shows them their error and aren't willing to talk about it or step out of their comfort zone?So thank-you. :)
  20. proverbs31woman

    proverbs31woman Puritan Board Freshman

    Side note to consider:


    Of Effectual Calling.

    I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ: enlightening their minds, spiritually and savingly, to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good; and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.

    II. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from any thing at all foreseen in man, who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.

    III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth. So also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.

    IV. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come to Christ, and therefore can not be saved: much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the law of that religion they do profess; and to assert and maintain that they may is without warrant of the Word of God.

    The propagation of sin, from the parents to the children, is either because the soul is infected by the contagion of the body, as a good ointment by a faulty vessel; or because God, in the very moment of creation and infusion of souls into infants, doth utterly forsake them. For as Adam received the image of God, both for himself and others, so did he lose it for himself and others. - William Perkins

    Chapter 12 - Of Original Sin

    There can be no question that Calvinism teaches that the guilt of Adam’s sin is imputed to all of

    his descendants, regardless of their age. In Deuteronomy 32:23-25, God Himself clearly states:

    “I will heap mischiefs upon them.... Terror within shall destroy both the young man, and the

    virgin; also the suckling, together with the man of gray hairs.”


    John Calvin Commentary:

    In his Sermons on Deuteronomy (32:23-25), Calvin clearly teaches: ”As concerning that which

    is said here of babes, let us mark that if God wished to rend up the whole world by the roots - He

    could do it. Yes, and that rightly justly. For even from our very birth, we bring nothing but

    wrath and cursedness. If God take young babes out of the world, yes, and damns them - yet is

    there no rigour in so doing. For we be all forlorn, aforehand, by nature.... He did no wrong or

    injury to little infants, in taking themout of theworld.... Hemay not only smite themwith death,

    but also send them to everlasting damnation - because we be all cursed in Adam....

    “Not that the children be punished, as if guiltless. For God knows that they be not so.... We do

    not perceive that they have offended.... Although we [sometimes] take little babes to be faultless

    - yet, notwithstanding, there is a naughtiness enclosed in them. And the seed of sin is sufficient

    to condemn them before God....

  21. TKarrer

    TKarrer Puritan Board Freshman

    My understanding of Calvin's words here is that he is arguing for the justice of God, not the certainty of infant's damnation. The orthodox teaching on Original Sin demands we agree with Calvin that God would be just to damn every baby born of Adam's loins if He were to choose to do so.

    The reason we can sense a unique affection for children, even those of other's, I believe is because we see in them an innocence of ignorance; not an innocence of nature, for we clearly see their rebellion, but of ignorance. They're no less wicked than the mature; but their sin flows from their inherited nature, and has yet to flow from a conscious supression of God's truth.

    MacArthur and John Piper's works on this topic deal with other verses of Scripture, well worth researching. I'd also add that the design of God's election shown in 1 Corinthians 1:26-31, would also seem to point to the probability of God's showering His grace upon infants who are not born of godly parents, nor baptized; for who could be said to be more weak and foolish, least deserving, and least able to boast in themselves, than those plucked from death's grip at such a young age? That argument, however, is definitely not a major basis for my belief that all infants are of the company of God's elect.
  22. proverbs31woman

    proverbs31woman Puritan Board Freshman

    Well I will be sure to research the topic from Piper and MacArthur.....Thanks! :) I still stand unconvinced, but prayer, research, and time can be used effectively to show truth to someone if they are open-if that be the case. Nonetheless thank-you for the info.
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