OPC debate ENDED

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NaphtaliPress

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Staff member
I saw this note on the PresbyteriansOPC forum just now; time is central time. Presentation of the report began 30 minutes ago.
--- In [email protected], "ARPontier" <[email protected]> wrote:

Group,

The presentation of the Report on Justification has begun...

be in prayer.

ARPontier
OPC Minister
Lakewood, CA:pray2:

[Edited on 6-27-2006 by NaphtaliPress]
 

NaphtaliPress

Administrator
Staff member
The latest update.
--- In [email protected], "ARPontier" <[email protected]> wrote:

Group,

10:30 a.m. update from G.A.

The Committee to Study the Doctrine of Justification has finished the
presentation of their report. We are now in the "Q and A" time.
Commissioners have time to ask questions for information and
clarification on the report (but not the specific recommendations).
The time for Q and A is originally set at 30 minutes. So far we have
extended the time by another 30 minutes.

ARPontier
OPC Minister
from the floor of the Assembly
--- In [email protected], "ARPontier"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Group,
>
> The presentation of the Report on Justification has begun...
>
> be in prayer.
>
> ARPontier
> OPC Minister
> Lakewood, CA
>

--- End forwarded message ---
 

NaphtaliPress

Administrator
Staff member
Latest is lunch. Debate will resume as noted below. I have no idea what the resolution wording and changed wording is; anyone?
--- In [email protected], "ARPontier" <[email protected]> wrote:

Dave,

I was not elected.

We are now in recess for lunch (yet more food). When we return, we
will continue debate on a motion to substitute a modification of the
first recommendation.

ARPontier
OPC Minister
from the floor...

--- In [email protected], Dave Bonnema
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Al---
>
> Do you know if you were elected to the CCE?
>
> Dave Bonnema
> member, Lynwood [IL] URC
 

NaphtaliPress

Administrator
Staff member
Only news since the above: Dr. Fesko moved to adopt the report rather than adopt it for study.
--- In [email protected], "BAHarvey" <[email protected]> wrote:

--- In [email protected], "iamajwebb" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Hi Alan,
>
> Can you give us an update as to what the suggested modification was
> and how the debate is going?
>
> Thanks much for doing this, I envy you rich guys with wireless
> laptops. The best I could do was the PC in my hotel "business
center" ;-)
>
> Your Servant in Christ,
>
> Pastor Andy Webb
> Providence PCA, Fayetteville, NC
>

Fesko moved to adopt the report rather than recommend it for study.

Barb Harvey
Covenant OPC
Dayton, OH
 

NaphtaliPress

Administrator
Staff member
The latest below.
--- In [email protected], "BAHarvey" <[email protected]> wrote:

--- In [email protected], "aes422" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
> Thanks Barb and Alan. We appreciate any news.
>
> Linda Jones
> Member, Calvary OPC
> Glenside, PA
>

The motion didn't fly, but the advisory cmte will be formulating a
preamble intended to convey a stronger endorsement of the report, but
short of officially adopting it, rather than a recommendation for
study. I don't know when it will be voted on.

BHarvey
Covenant OPC
Dayton, OH
 

NaphtaliPress

Administrator
Staff member
Correction below.
--- In [email protected], "BAHarvey" <[email protected]> wrote:

--- In [email protected], "BAHarvey" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>

> The motion didn't fly, but the advisory cmte will be formulating a
> preamble intended to convey a stronger endorsement of the report, but
> short of officially adopting it, rather than a recommendation for
> study. I don't know when it will be voted on.
>
> BHarvey
> Covenant OPC
> Dayton, OH


Oops... our own Oracle has corrected me. The advisory cmte can still
recommend a motion to adopt. Sorry for the boo boo.

Barb Harvey
Covenant OPC
Dayton, OH
 

Laura

Puritan Board Junior
Chris, do you know anything else? I'm supposed to be tracking down info for a friend who's without Internet access and very interested to know what's going on...
 

Pilgrim

Puritan Board Doctor
Originally posted by Laura
Chris, do you know anything else? I'm supposed to be tracking down info for a friend who's without Internet access and very interested to know what's going on...
There has been no further update on the OPC list.
 

NaphtaliPress

Administrator
Staff member
A report of what transpired for yesterday is now at the opc.org website. The report went back to committee and will come back sometime before the GA is over I guess.
 

NaphtaliPress

Administrator
Staff member
Here is the latest posted to the OPC forum.
--- In [email protected], "ARPontier" <[email protected]> wrote:

Group,

I was not doing email or web stuff yesterday. However, now it is
about 6:45 a.m. and we are almost ready to go to breakfast. Just
thought I'd get back to the discussion for a moment.

I am not sure when we will get back to the Justification report. We
recessed on Sat. evening with all the motions and recommendations
going back to the advisory committee. We have some other business
on the floor now and we also have an "order of the day" for this
morning. However, I would guess that some time later this morning
we will return and the advisory committee will present the
recommendations that they worked on Saturday night.

Let me say something about the motion to adopt the report. In
Robert's Rules of Order a motion to adopt is portrayed as the
adopting body agreeing with every word in the document. That is, in
fact, superceded by our own Standing Rules which does not define
adopting that way. Our Rules say that adoption means that the
adopting body becomes responsible for the document.

There is, however, a difficulty that comes with a motion to adopt.
Such a motion opens up the entire document for amendment. Can you
imagine opening up a lengthy report such as this for amendment?
Richard's source at the GA may have overstated something if he gave
the impression that the motion to adopt was going to pass. In fact,
after an initial excitement at the prospect, most commissioners, I
think, realize that adoption would tie up the assembly for the rest
of its time as there may well be a series of amendments that would
be offered and full debate would be allowed on each amendment.

From what I'm hearing around the campus, the advisory committee will
return with a recommendation that the statement on justification
that the Assembly of 2 years ago adopted (and, yes, that was
adopted) might be included with the current report as well as some
kind of explanatory preface. In this form the report would be
distributed and posssibly even published in book form.

There is, in fact, overwhelming support for the report at the
assembly. No one is defending NPP or FV on the floor of the
assembly, though there are a few that wanted to pick at certain
things in the report.

Let there be no doubt where this 70 year old church stands!

But now we have to think about how to be "proactive" in our
churches, sessions and presbyteries. It is not enough to pat
ourselves on the back for this report and then let it sit on our
shelves.

ARPontier
OPC Minister
from the Assembly

--- End forwarded message ---
 

BobVigneault

Bawberator
Thank you so much Chris for these updates. I was speaking to Pastor David King yesterday who is doing the official reports. He is doing a marvelous job but there is a great lag in reporting because of the several eyes that need to see and emend the final product each day. So your 'up to the minute' sources or much appreciated. :handshake:
 

NaphtaliPress

Administrator
Staff member
Well, let's hope the GA doesn't ban such live reporting. I do suppose if they ever go into executive session they would tell everyone to log off.;)
 

BobVigneault

Bawberator
Yes, I jokingly told Pastor King that's it's a good thing we have a 'gossip-monger' on the floor with a wireless to keep us posted. He grabbed at my throat and demanded to know his name. It was all in fun but I guess it could get touchy should they go to exec session.
 

AdamM

Puritan Board Freshman
Just an observation, but it appears that in both the PCA and OPC the actual number of elders who embrace the NPP/FV paradigm is thankfully still very small. It goes toward confirming an opinion that I have had for a while now that the FV resonates mainly within a very narrow audience with a shared set of past experiences and concerns.
 

NaphtaliPress

Administrator
Staff member
Originally posted by AdamM
Just an observation, but it appears that in both the PCA and OPC the actual number of elders who embrace the NPP/FV paradigm is thankfully still very small. It goes toward confirming an opinion that I have had for a while now that the FV resonates mainly within a very narrow audience with a shared set of past experiences and concerns.
:ditto:... and internet access. Some have observed that FV it seems has spread as much as it has via Internet rather than formal publication. NPP probably has picked up steam via the Internet as well though it predates it surely. Or am I over stating the importance of the Internet chatter?
 

BobVigneault

Bawberator
You are not over stating the importance of internet chatter. The irony here is that internet chatter is important because it is not important. The internet is able to take the obscure and inconsequential elements of a discussion and inflate the importance of those elements simply by broadcasting to a large audience. Now you add the armchair and hobbyist theologs who will jump behind their favorite pastor or personality and support things they haven't the knowledge or experience to judge and you have a real movement.

I'm glad Matthew has taken a hard stance against debating FV here on the PB for that very reason. We may be true lovers of orthodox and debate but we are not the ones to be taking sides yet. The commissioners of the PCA and OPC will make discissions that will effect ordinations, professorships, the history of the church and real lives.

We may think we are 'important' enough to debate these issues but we simply contribute to 'chatter' which helps nobody and forms a hinderance like a smoke screen that the commissioners must try to see through.

I do hope you will continue your updates but we all must understand that they are for informational purposes only. Everyone put your swords away... for now.
 

Dan....

Puritan Board Sophomore
Originally posted by NaphtaliPress
Well, let's hope the GA doesn't ban such live reporting. I do suppose if they ever go into executive session they would tell everyone to log off.;)
Also note that it is a public meeting. It takes place in a sizable auditorium. The commissioners are all up on the stage and the audience seating is open to whoever wants to attend.

I was there on Saturday morning for 3 hours. I thoroughly enjoyed it. It made me even more happy to be a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.
 

DTK

Puritan Board Junior
Originally posted by BobVigneault
Thank you so much Chris for these updates. I was speaking to Pastor David King yesterday who is doing the official reports. He is doing a marvelous job but there is a great lag in reporting because of the several eyes that need to see and emend the final product each day. So your 'up to the minute' sources or much appreciated. :handshake:
In the event anyone might be wondering, the dear OPC pastor referenced above should not be confused with yours truly. We are two different men.

DTK
 

BobVigneault

Bawberator
"David King", a name that the Lord seems to have reserved for two notable servants of great integrity. Yes the reporter for the OPC GA is my own pastor, David W. King.
 

kceaster

Puritan Board Junior
Dan...

Originally posted by Dan....
Originally posted by NaphtaliPress
Well, let's hope the GA doesn't ban such live reporting. I do suppose if they ever go into executive session they would tell everyone to log off.;)
Also note that it is a public meeting. It takes place in a sizable auditorium. The commissioners are all up on the stage and the audience seating is open to whoever wants to attend.

I was there on Saturday morning for 3 hours. I thoroughly enjoyed it. It made me even more happy to be a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.
I wish I had known you were there. I was there, too, though we stayed through lunch to the afternoon recess. I enjoyed myself immensely, though I wish we would have hooked up. Perhaps some other time.

Blessings,

KC
 

BJClark

Puritan Board Doctor
I don't understand the entire debate, but I do know our pastor said they are trying to kill the dragon at the neck, and make sure this heresy isn't brought into our churches.
 

NaphtaliPress

Administrator
Staff member
I'll try to post anything as soon as our "informants" issue any word that the report has come back to the floor. Of course, if anyone else either via the OPC forum or some other source gets any info, feel free to post it.
 

C. Matthew McMahon

Christian Preacher
The commissioners of the PCA and OPC will make discissions that will effect ordinations, professorships, the history of the church and real lives.
This is a heartily true statement. That is why the RPCGA killed the FV heresy over a year ago in our own denomination.

It will be interesting to see what God's will is as "decreed" for these denominations and the FV. :pray2:
 

NaphtaliPress

Administrator
Staff member
Several posts. Essentially the business over the Justification Report is done. Nothing was officially adopted by the Assembly, which would have been the strongest action; but there are those who can better explain why that was not the best action, or even likely by the Assembly (which rarely if at all adopts study reports such as this).
--- In [email protected], "Hob Newton" <[email protected]> wrote:

we're in the middle of the discussion right now...motion is basically to
commend (not recommend) for study...am sure more details will be given later

H. C. Newton
RE, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian
Boise, ID

--- In [email protected], "Phil Hodson" <[email protected]> wrote:

The report was commended for study to the presbyteries, and will be sent
out with a preamble which is to include an explanation that:

1.) the report is not intended to impugn the individuals referred to in
the report,
2.) that it was not a judicial act,
3.) that it was intended rather to critique the teaching itself.
4.) that it was not intended to address the name and reputation of any
man.

The preamble will be written by the Committee on Christian Education.

Other than that it went through pretty much as written.

Nothing was adopted.

Phil Hodson

--- In [email protected], "ARPontier" <[email protected]> wrote:

Art and Group,

We just went back to the Justification report. In short order we
passed the following recommendations:

The 73rd G.A. requests the Committee on Christian Education: (1) to
distribute this report to seminaries with which it has contact; (2)
to post this report on our denominational web site for easy access
by interested parties; (3) to consider publishing it separately for
distribution and (4) (-at this point I don't have the exact words of
this section since it was added as an amendment, but the point of
this section is that New Horizons will devote an issue to a popular
critique of the New Perspective and Federal Vision.) The General
Assembly requests that the Committee on Christian Education write a
prefatory statement to the report explaining (a) the reasons and
context surrounding the origin of the report, including the
republishing of the statement on Justification adopted by the 71st
General Assembly, and (b) an explanation of what it means for the
General Assembly to commend a report for study.

In addition the following was also adopted:

The 73rd General Assembly requests the Stated Clerk to mail copies
of this report with the prefatory statement to those churches with
whom the Orthodox Presbyterian Church has Ecclesiastical Fellowship
or a Corresponding Relationship.

After this the committee was dismissed with the thanks of the
Assembly. The Assembly also applauded their work.

We are moving on and racing through the rest of the agenda.

ARPontier
OPC Minister
from the floor of the Assembly

--- In [email protected], "anopcfox" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
> So, Al, has the report on Justification been adopted or has debate
on
> that not yet been resumed?
>
> Arthur Fox
> Calvary OPC
> Middletown, Pa
>
--- End forwarded message ---
 
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