Onus Probandi & Hyperpreterism

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RoderickE

Puritan Board Freshman
Hyperpreterist teacher and "leader" Sam Frost said on Feb 8, 2010:
I am a Trinitarian, for example, because the creeds have settled that matter for me in Church History. It is the majority view. I wouldn't even begin to attempt to argue against it unless there was some massive warrant (like Preterism) to do so. (source)
The context for this quote, before I'm accused of taking it out of context, is Frost arguing with his follow hyperpreterist, Norm Voss. Voss is advocating that historic Christianity is so messed up, that hyperpreterists should chuck historic Christian interpretations (especially as it relates to the Genesis account) and start over from scratch.

Now, here is the problem with Frost's quote; who is he to say what IS and ISN'T such a "settled matter" that people should "even begin to attempt to argue against it"?

This is my point about hyperpreterism -- it is arrogant at its very core. Consider, that Frost claims "Preterism" is a "massive warrant" to argue against not just the eschatological "majority view" as he paints it, but rather Frost and his fellow hyperpreterists think they have "warrant" to argue against THE historic Christian view on eschatology.

I'm calling it THE historic Christian view on eschatology because, whether you look at pre-Roman Catholicism, Roman Catholicism, Greek/Eastern Orthodox, Syrian, Reformed/Protestant, Anabaptist, or Modern Evangelical -- ALL of these expressions of the Christian Faith have been UNITED in affirming the 4 things that hyperpreterism denies. THE historic Christian view of eschatology probably has more weight behind it than even the belief in the Trinity YET, Frost thinks he has "warrant" to question it? And not only a question of a minor "tweak", but a question of a radical departure. ARROGANCE!

Frost attempts to school Voss by telling Voss:

I submitted that the onus probandi (burden of proof) is always on the minority view, and that such a view as full preterism must make its case utilizing that same standard of scholarship and expertise and tools that we find in conservative evangelicalism.
Yet day in and day out, on this and other message boards across the net, hyperpreterists are always trying to put us Christians on the defensive as if the "onus probandi" is on us. It is not.

Hyperpreterism is not just a "minority view", it is a minuscule view that is OUTSIDE of all historic Christian variations on eschatology. Hyperpreterism CAN'T make its case using the tools of conservative evangelicalism because hyperpreterism is neither conservative or evangelical (Christian). Hyperpreterism is something OTHER than Christian and Voss understands that hyperpreterism must break completely from so-called "futurism" (which is hyperpret code word for; "historic Christianity").

Folks, Frost himself has revealed why it is pointless to get into proof-texting boxing matches with hyperpreterists -- they don't care how any text was ever interpreted, instead it is about their own private interpretations and personal views (just watch how much they talk about "my view" this or "my view" that -- challenging us to "deal with their view" as if the onus probandi is on us.

Hyperpreterism is at the stage where it desperately wants and needs attention -- even epitomizing the old saying, that "even bad press is good press". They just want to get "their view" onto the theological table. It is our OBLIGATION as Christians to EXPOSE (Eph 5:11) these kind of views as the wide-eyed heresies they are, if not for the people duped within them at least for those who may become duped....those who arrogantly think there is "massive warrant" to argue against 2000 years of UNITED Christian interpretation on the basics of eschatology.

Dear hyperpreterists, if you don't want to listen to me, listen to what Frost said without realizing it.
 

KMK

Administrator
Staff member
Thanks for this Roderick. However, I don't know how you can argue with Frost when he knows Latin words. (I like how he defines the Latin in parentheses) From my perspective, it appears that Hyperpreterism is losing traction. And with quotes like those it is not hard to see why.
 

toddpedlar

Iron Dramatist
Dear hyperpreterists, if you don't want to listen to me, listen to what Frost said without realizing it.
Hi Roderick -

I appreciate your vigilance against the hyperpreterist heresy, but this is a bit of a non-starter here at the PB. I don't quite know what you mean by your "dear hyperpreterists, if you don't want to listen to me...." remark. I can just about guarantee you that there are ZERO hyperpreterists here. The doctrine is so obviously heretical and contrary to the Reformed confessions and the ecumenical creeds that it's not even an issue. Yes heresy should be exposed and warned against - but here is not the place that you need to be convincing people on the issue.

Todd
 

RoderickE

Puritan Board Freshman
PB is a refuge

Dear hyperpreterists, if you don't want to listen to me, listen to what Frost said without realizing it.
Hi Roderick -

I appreciate your vigilance against the hyperpreterist heresy, but this is a bit of a non-starter here at the PB. I don't quite know what you mean by your "dear hyperpreterists, if you don't want to listen to me...." remark. I can just about guarantee you that there are ZERO hyperpreterists here. The doctrine is so obviously heretical and contrary to the Reformed confessions and the ecumenical creeds that it's not even an issue. Yes heresy should be exposed and warned against - but here is not the place that you need to be convincing people on the issue.

Todd
Todd, thank you so much for your comments. I agree that PB is perhaps one of the finest and solid Christian message boards there is. It is a blessing to be able to talk among fellow Christians and not always have heretical views flying left and right from supposed Christians. PB is a refuge. I thank the admins and the members for this board. HOWEVER,

I know there are hyperpreterist members on PB -- they've told me they are members here, even though PB rules would exclude hyperprets -- see specifically rule 2:a-f and rule 8. But yes, this message was posted here and other places, perhaps I should have removed the last line when posting it here. And one more HOWEVER if I may, ;) over my years of first being a hyperpreterist and then recovering from the heresy, some of the worse damage done to me and other "formers" has been at the hands of fellow "Christians" -- I'm sure some of them didn't mean to do it, but when a Christian gives even the slightest credibility to a heresy like hyperpreterism (acting like hyperprets are "brothers in Christ"), it is very destructive especially to those previously part of the heresy. It would be like an ex-Mormon being told by supposed Christians, that Mormonism is an acceptable form of Christianity and that the ex-Mormon shouldn't oppose Mormonism, but instead consider Mormons "brothers in Christ". I've even had a very respected seminary president advise I treat hyperprets like Christian brothers. That was very discouraging. This is some of what I've experienced --granted NEVER from PB members. Everyone here has been extremely supportive and encouraging.

Lastly, Todd I notice you say you co-host Covenant Radio -- excellent. Will Hill, though as he admits may have started out being like one of those Christians who appeared to give credibility to hyperpreterism (the co-founder of CR was even an admitted hyperpret), Hill has since strongly opposed hyperpreterism at every juncture and his phone conversations with me have been very helpful. So, as you can see, though hyperpreterism is a very minuscule movement, its tentacles reach into the oddest of places -- even to the podcast you co-host. All I'm asking is that fellow Christians be diligent in opposing this heresy, whenever and wherever it shows itself. As a believer in God's sovereignty and His "declaring the end from the beginning", I must believe that even my experience in the hyperpret movement has a purpose to glorify His name. Some of the strongest counter-cult groups/people have been those who actually were former cult members seeing the inside of the cult.

Thanks again Todd. God bless and keep you in Christ and His Church,
Roderick Edwards
 

KMK

Administrator
Staff member
To add to what Roderick says, many Hyperpreterists read PuritanBoard as 'visitors'. I think they like to google the word 'hyperpreterist' and see what is being said about them.
 

Roldan

Puritan Board Junior
To add to what Roderick says, many Hyperpreterists read PuritanBoard as 'visitors'. I think they like to google the word 'hyperpreterist' and see what is being said about them.
Yup they sure are here.....there are a couple of Hyprets in another board I am a member of who are always talking garbage about PB and even cut and paste quotes from here to further their nonesense, I have witnessed it and its discusting to say the least on how far these people go to advance their heresy. Rod has been a great addition to a message board I belong to where he is currently blowing to Hyprets views right out the water over there, we are blessed to have him and I tell our members to take heed to what Rod is saying so that they may not fall into this error.

Thanx Ro-Dawg lol
 

LawrenceU

Puritan Board Doctor
I am sure they are here. It is there MO. They also do the same thing in churches. They sneak in, knowingly deceiving the leadership.

I know first hand that a lot of HPs read this board.

Thanks, Roderick.
 
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