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Maybe someone here can help me out...I hear my Dispensational friends talking about the coming of a one world government, Does Covenant Theology discuss this topic or address it?
Maybe someone here can help me out...I hear my Dispensational friends talking about the coming of a one world government, Does Covenant Theology discuss this topic or address it?
Beware of the Build-A-Burgers. They will dominate the world AND clog your arteries.
Covenant Theology has a One World Government: it's called Christendom, and it doens't operate how wicked One Worlds think they ought to. The Church is likewise to be a One World government, or a Catholic Church. These are the only senses in which covenant theology might touch on a One World idea.
Covenant Theology has a One World Government: it's called Christendom, and it doens't operate how wicked One Worlds think they ought to. The Church is likewise to be a One World government, or a Catholic Church. These are the only senses in which covenant theology might touch on a One World idea.
I am unsure how you came to that conclusion. A historic premillenialist (Covenantal) might well touch on such a subject, and it would certainly not be regarded as a good thing.
Covenant Theology has a One World Government: it's called Christendom, and it doens't operate how wicked One Worlds think they ought to. The Church is likewise to be a One World government, or a Catholic Church. These are the only senses in which covenant theology might touch on a One World idea.
I am unsure how you came to that conclusion. A historic premillenialist (Covenantal) might well touch on such a subject, and it would certainly not be regarded as a good thing.
I think that Adam is referring to the belief of Covenant Theologians and all Calvinists that Christ rules everywhere in the world as Mediatorial King unto His Church, and the belief that the prophet Daniel had by revelation that this Church-Nation-Kingdom would one day incorporate all nations, which will be achieved by the spread of the Gospel (e.g. Dan. 2:35)
It's a process in history. We might think it's too slow, but God's timing is best.
I am not very well-informed on this, but when I hear of one-world government I don't so much think of a literal administration. Humanly speaking that would take something to achieve, particularly since democracy is becoming the normative form of government - it might be pulled off in a world of dictators.
I sometimes wonder though if we aren't already seeing it, only in the shape of an overwhelmingly dominant moral and cultural paradigm which (except perhaps in Islamic states) rules all the rulers.
I am unsure how you came to that conclusion. A historic premillenialist (Covenantal) might well touch on such a subject, and it would certainly not be regarded as a good thing.
I think that Adam is referring to the belief of Covenant Theologians and all Calvinists that Christ rules everywhere in the world as Mediatorial King unto His Church, and the belief that the prophet Daniel had by revelation that this Church-Nation-Kingdom would one day incorporate all nations, which will be achieved by the spread of the Gospel (e.g. Dan. 2:35)
It's a process in history. We might think it's too slow, but God's timing is best.
Saying "All covenant theologians" is a stretch. I do not think that when Christ spoke of his kingdom, he was speaking only in terms of the "growing reign of His church".
I am Covenantal, and Historic, and premillennial. I believe in a literal Tribulation, a literal end time battle (if you can call it a "battle") a literal antichrist, etc.
I do not think the Gospel will "slowly win the world to Christ." The reign of Christ will occur, by Christ Himself, on his return, quite suddenly. Before this, the world will become increasingly wicked and removed from God: there will be a literal time of tribulation' this could well include a one world government.
Christ, BEFORE the first century, had as much power available to Him as He would ever had, to do with as He deems good. In fact, He had this from Eternity past. God is Immutable.I am not very well-informed on this, but when I hear of one-world government I don't so much think of a literal administration. Humanly speaking that would take something to achieve, particularly since democracy is becoming the normative form of government - it might be pulled off in a world of dictators.
I sometimes wonder though if we aren't already seeing it, only in the shape of an overwhelmingly dominant moral and cultural paradigm which (except perhaps in Islamic states) rules all the rulers.
But "democracy" isn't working very well, anyway. The political elites of European nations and the EU often ignore the real wishes of their people. They patronise their people by saying. "We know best." Or they give a nod to democracy by asking them to come back again with the answer they want.
Viz. the recent repeat poll in Ireland. Now if the Irish had said "Yes" to the Lisbon Treaty the first time, do you think they'd have been offered a repeat poll? That's "democracy" for you!
Re the EU, although I don't agree with dispensational or premillenarian interpretation of the Scriptures, I'm not so naive that I don't believe that it's possible that the EU could turn into a force for persecuting Christianity at least for some period of time.
I just don't see the EU or it's posited persecution to be specifically taught in books like Revelation or Daniel as premillenarians and Dispensationalists with their largely futurist approach to Revelation 5-20 do. There are general predictions of trouble, and even in Revelation, of future governments returning from time to time to the beastly persecutory behaviour of Nero and Rome.
That has recurred again and again as we know. The world in general and civil government in particular hasn't yet become so sanctified or benign that it couldn't happen again in America or Europe. In fact it is happening today in many Muslim countries and in Communist countries. The Beast is being as beastly in some of these countries as he was under his Neronic and pagan Roman manifestations or under the medieval Antichristian manifestation of the Papacy.
Persecution already happens in subtle or not so subtle ways in Europe and America.
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I think that Adam is referring to the belief of Covenant Theologians and all Calvinists that Christ rules everywhere in the world as Mediatorial King unto His Church, and the belief that the prophet Daniel had by revelation that this Church-Nation-Kingdom would one day incorporate all nations, which will be achieved by the spread of the Gospel (e.g. Dan. 2:35)
It's a process in history. We might think it's too slow, but God's timing is best.
Saying "All covenant theologians" is a stretch. I do not think that when Christ spoke of his kingdom, he was speaking only in terms of the "growing reign of His church".
I am Covenantal, and Historic, and premillennial. I believe in a literal Tribulation, a literal end time battle (if you can call it a "battle") a literal antichrist, etc.
I do not think the Gospel will "slowly win the world to Christ." The reign of Christ will occur, by Christ Himself, on his return, quite suddenly. Before this, the world will become increasingly wicked and removed from God: there will be a literal time of tribulation' this could well include a one world government.
But you surely believe that Christ's Mediatorial Kingdom commenced in the First Century and that Christ at present has as much power available to Him as He will ever have, to do with as He deems good?
De facto both postmils and premils believe in significant positive progress and changes in Christ's Kingdom.
Premils believe in positive progress after a period of deep darkness, by Christ physically returning to Earth. Somehow this is supposed to achieve something positive, although Christ says that when He is at His Father's right hand He already has all authority in Heaven and on Earth to do all He wishes to do.
The focus on imminent or middle-future One World Government persecution of the Church tends to be by dispensationalist types who also believe that Revelation 6-20 is all still future, and must be interpreted as literally as possible.
They believe such things as that the 666 is going to be literally stamped on people's foreheads so we can go shopping without money or credit cards, the Freemasons, "Illuminati", and Vatican are behind the (supposed) move to a One World Government, Henry Kissenger (!?) may be the Antichrist, the "Europen Union" are the Ten Toes and Ten Horns.
Such misguided "interpretation" of the Book of Revelation is quite racy, but brings the Book of Revelation, the Bible and Christianity into disrepute, In my humble opinion.
Christ, BEFORE the first century, had as much power available to Him as He would ever had, to do with as He deems good. In fact, He had this from Eternity past. God is Immutable. E.g. And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." (Matt. 28:18, ESV)
Quote from RichardT
De facto both postmils and premils believe in significant positive progress and changes in Christ's Kingdom.
Premils believe in positive progress after a period of deep darkness, by Christ physically returning to Earth. Somehow this is supposed to achieve something positive, although Christ says that when He is at His Father's right hand He already has all authority in Heaven and on Earth to do all He wishes to do.
Not quite sure where you got this from. Pre mills believe things will "wax worse and worse." Until Christ comes back, the powers of Darkness will increase in dominance, although people on an individual level will be saved, to some degree (although these will be few). There will be no "gradual" improvement. There will be an INSTANT improvement, when Christ returns to set up his earthly, 1000 year Kingdom, after the "time of great troubles."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Tallach
The focus on imminent or middle-future One World Government persecution of the Church tends to be by dispensationalist types who also believe that Revelation 6-20 is all still future, and must be interpreted as literally as possible.
Or Historic Pre- mills like myself, who are Covenantal.
They believe such things as that the 666 is going to be literally stamped on people's foreheads so we can go shopping without money or credit cards, the Freemasons, "Illuminati", and Vatican are behind the (supposed) move to a One World Government, Henry Kissenger (!?) may be the Antichrist, the "Europen Union" are the Ten Toes and Ten Horns.
There is going to be something that has to do with that number, which is required to buy or sell, yes. That is called Literal interpretation: i.e. that is what the Bible actually says.
Quote:
RichardT
Such misguided "interpretation" of the Book of Revelation is quite racy, but brings the Book of Revelation, the Bible and Christianity into disrepute, In my humble opinion.
Believing what the Bible says usually brings believers into disrepute among unbelievers. We should be used to it.
Not quite sure where you got this from. Pre mills believe things will "wax worse and worse."
Not quite sure where you got this from. Pre mills believe things will "wax worse and worse."
A hundred years after Christ rose from the grave how were things compared to now?
How tall were people? How many calories did they have to eat? How long were their work days? What percentage could read? How many clothes did they have? How many rights under their leaders did they have? What percentage lived past 5 years old? How many books could an average person afford to own? What did their teeth look like? What relief from pain did the average person have? How far from their place of birth did they go for vacations? How bright was the light they used after dark? How far had the Gospel gone forth from the Mideast?
When I was in Papua New Guinea during the mid 1980s, the people called the era before the first missionaries the "Time No Good". And that's pretty much what happened everywhere. I wonder (this isn't me being sarcastic since when I was a teenager growing up in a dipsy baptist church I felt like you) how a person can honestly stare history in the face and hold to that sort of pessimistic dipsy thinking. You might find your thinking challenged in the coming years after a bit of consideration ;-)
Frome the 2nd Helvetic confession, section 11:
Christ IS TRULY ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN. We believe that our Lord Jesus Christ, in his same flesh, ascended above all visible heavens into the highest heaven, that is, the dwelling-place of God and the blessed ones, at the right hand of God the Father. Although it signifies an equal participation in glory and majesty, it is also taken to be a certain place about which the Lord, speaking in the Gospel, says: "I go to prepare a place for you" (John 14:2). The apostle Peter also says: "Heaven must receive Christ until the time of restoring all things" (Acts 3:21). And from heaven the same Christ will return in judgment, when wickedness will then be at its greatest in the world and when the Antichrist, having corrupted true religion, will fill up all things with superstition and impiety and will cruelly lay waste the Church with bloodshed and flames (Dan., ch. 11). But Christ will come again to claim his own, and by his coming to destroy the Antichrist, and to judge the living and the dead (Acts 17:31). For the dead will rise again (I Thess. 4:14 ff.), and those who on that day (which is unknown to all creatures [Mark 13:32]) will be alive will be changed "in the twinkling of an eye," and all the faithful will be caught up to meet Christ in the air, so that then they may enter with him into the blessed dwelling-places to live forever (I Cor. 15:51 f.). But the unbelievers and ungodly will descend with the devils into hell to burn forever and never to be redeemed from torments (Matt. 25:46).
THE SECTS. We therefore condemn all who deny a real resurrection of the flesh (II Tim. 2:18), or who with John of Jerusalem, against whom Jerome wrote, do not have a correct view of the glorification of bodies. We also condemn those who thought that the devil and all the ungodly would at some time be saved, and that there would be an end to punishments. For the Lord has plainly declared: "Their fire is not quenched, and their worm does not die" (Mark 9:44). We further condemn Jewish dreams that there will be a golden age on earth before the Day of Judgment, and that the pious, having subdued all their godless enemies, will possess all the kingdoms of the earth. For evangelical truth in Matt., chs. 24 and 25, and Luke, ch. 18, and apostolic teaching in II Thess., ch. 2, and II Tim., chs. 3 and 4, present something quite different.
#1 The degree of persecution against God's church.
FACT: There have been more Christian Martyrs in the last 100 years, than in the entire previous 19 centuries combined.
#2 The number of people getting killed by the unrighteous, period.
FACT 150 million people have been killed in wars, in the last 100 years. It has been the bloodiest century in History, outside of Old Testament events (Noah's flood).
#3 Holiness.
FACT Although in some ways the Romans were just as immoral as we are today, in other ways they were not. For example, in Roman Culture, there was a GREAT respect for parents. Also, even in regards to things like Adultery, the Roman society was not as bad as today. In that time, you could at least get away from unholy things: now, people are bombarded with them from the time of their youth. Things like p0rnography are rampant; effecting even those who desire and struggle to separate themselves unto God. This is more difficult today, than at anytime in history.
Frome the 2nd Helvetic confession, section 11:
Christ IS TRULY ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN. We believe that our Lord Jesus Christ, in his same flesh, ascended above all visible heavens into the highest heaven, that is, the dwelling-place of God and the blessed ones, at the right hand of God the Father. Although it signifies an equal participation in glory and majesty, it is also taken to be a certain place about which the Lord, speaking in the Gospel, says: "I go to prepare a place for you" (John 14:2). The apostle Peter also says: "Heaven must receive Christ until the time of restoring all things" (Acts 3:21). And from heaven the same Christ will return in judgment, when wickedness will then be at its greatest in the world and when the Antichrist, having corrupted true religion, will fill up all things with superstition and impiety and will cruelly lay waste the Church with bloodshed and flames (Dan., ch. 11). But Christ will come again to claim his own, and by his coming to destroy the Antichrist, and to judge the living and the dead (Acts 17:31). For the dead will rise again (I Thess. 4:14 ff.), and those who on that day (which is unknown to all creatures [Mark 13:32]) will be alive will be changed "in the twinkling of an eye," and all the faithful will be caught up to meet Christ in the air, so that then they may enter with him into the blessed dwelling-places to live forever (I Cor. 15:51 f.). But the unbelievers and ungodly will descend with the devils into hell to burn forever and never to be redeemed from torments (Matt. 25:46).
THE SECTS. We therefore condemn all who deny a real resurrection of the flesh (II Tim. 2:18), or who with John of Jerusalem, against whom Jerome wrote, do not have a correct view of the glorification of bodies. We also condemn those who thought that the devil and all the ungodly would at some time be saved, and that there would be an end to punishments. For the Lord has plainly declared: "Their fire is not quenched, and their worm does not die" (Mark 9:44). We further condemn Jewish dreams that there will be a golden age on earth before the Day of Judgment, and that the pious, having subdued all their godless enemies, will possess all the kingdoms of the earth. For evangelical truth in Matt., chs. 24 and 25, and Luke, ch. 18, and apostolic teaching in II Thess., ch. 2, and II Tim., chs. 3 and 4, present something quite different.
I guess that's where they got the saying "I'm in Dutch."
LBCF, homie. (please see Article 31).
Frome the 2nd Helvetic confession, section 11:
Christ IS TRULY ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN. We believe that our Lord Jesus Christ, in his same flesh, ascended above all visible heavens into the highest heaven, that is, the dwelling-place of God and the blessed ones, at the right hand of God the Father. Although it signifies an equal participation in glory and majesty, it is also taken to be a certain place about which the Lord, speaking in the Gospel, says: "I go to prepare a place for you" (John 14:2). The apostle Peter also says: "Heaven must receive Christ until the time of restoring all things" (Acts 3:21). And from heaven the same Christ will return in judgment, when wickedness will then be at its greatest in the world and when the Antichrist, having corrupted true religion, will fill up all things with superstition and impiety and will cruelly lay waste the Church with bloodshed and flames (Dan., ch. 11). But Christ will come again to claim his own, and by his coming to destroy the Antichrist, and to judge the living and the dead (Acts 17:31). For the dead will rise again (I Thess. 4:14 ff.), and those who on that day (which is unknown to all creatures [Mark 13:32]) will be alive will be changed "in the twinkling of an eye," and all the faithful will be caught up to meet Christ in the air, so that then they may enter with him into the blessed dwelling-places to live forever (I Cor. 15:51 f.). But the unbelievers and ungodly will descend with the devils into hell to burn forever and never to be redeemed from torments (Matt. 25:46).
THE SECTS. We therefore condemn all who deny a real resurrection of the flesh (II Tim. 2:18), or who with John of Jerusalem, against whom Jerome wrote, do not have a correct view of the glorification of bodies. We also condemn those who thought that the devil and all the ungodly would at some time be saved, and that there would be an end to punishments. For the Lord has plainly declared: "Their fire is not quenched, and their worm does not die" (Mark 9:44). We further condemn Jewish dreams that there will be a golden age on earth before the Day of Judgment, and that the pious, having subdued all their godless enemies, will possess all the kingdoms of the earth. For evangelical truth in Matt., chs. 24 and 25, and Luke, ch. 18, and apostolic teaching in II Thess., ch. 2, and II Tim., chs. 3 and 4, present something quite different.
I guess that's where they got the saying "I'm in Dutch."
LBCF, homie. (please see Article 31).
Actually it's Swiss.
Curious that you say that, and then list some things that most folks would call issues of health as your barometer. Being killed is somewhat of a health issue, is it not?Since I am not Charismatic, I do not gauge the increase of Gods Kingdom by things like physical health and wealth. I gauge it by other factors, such as:
Brother, Rome was not the only culture present in the world then. A cursory study of the other cultures and empires extant in the first century would clearly demonstrate that despite the vulgarity of modern cultures, they pale in comparison to those in the Americas, Asia, the Pacific Isles, Northern Europe, Africa, etc. & etc. Ever seen a Nepalese Buddhist temple? Vulgarity unmatched, and revelled in even by the children of that culture.#3 Holiness.
FACT Although in some ways the Romans were just as immoral as we are today, in other ways they were not. For example, in Roman Culture, there was a GREAT respect for parents. Also, even in regards to things like Adultery, the Roman society was not as bad as today. In that time, you could at least get away from unholy things: now, people are bombarded with them from the time of their youth. Things like p0rnography are rampant; effecting even those who desire and struggle to separate themselves unto God. This is more difficult today, than at anytime in history.