One World Government

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brianlve

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Maybe someone here can help me out...I hear my Dispensational friends talking about the coming of a one world government, Does Covenant Theology discuss this topic or address it?
:detective:
 
Maybe someone here can help me out...I hear my Dispensational friends talking about the coming of a one world government, Does Covenant Theology discuss this topic or address it?
:detective:

Some preachers do. It's rare, but it happens. Pastor John Weaver does.
 
Covenant Theology has a One World Government: it's called Christendom, and it doens't operate how wicked One Worlds think they ought to. The Church is likewise to be a One World government, or a Catholic Church. These are the only senses in which covenant theology might touch on a One World idea.

As for what I think you're talking about, it is an absolute laugh. People in the same countries have a difficult enough time putting up with one another. What a joke to think the whole world could.
 
Maybe someone here can help me out...I hear my Dispensational friends talking about the coming of a one world government, Does Covenant Theology discuss this topic or address it?
:detective:

Not to my knowledge. A Reformed/Covenant view looks to the blessed hope of the return of Christ. We don't waste our time perusing newspapers and updating prophetic timelines.

One world gov't belongs to the City of Man, we are citizens of the City of God.
 
Brother Brian, your question deserves a good answer. Perhaps the best living author and teacher of Covenant theology regarding the "end times" and the book of Revelation and Daniel, and all the scenarios your dispensational friends are eagerly talking about, is Kim Riddlebarger.

This is his blog if you poke around

Riddleblog - The Latest Post

but you might do better getting his book A Case for Amillenialism

Amazon.com: Case for Amillennialism, A: Understanding the End Times (9780801064357): Kim Riddlebarger: Books

These audios are on the blog:

Amillennialism 101 -- Audio Resources
"What Is Amillennialism?" -- (MP3)
"What Is Amillennialism?" -- (Streaming)
"Interpreting Bible Prophecy -- Part One" MP3
"Interpreting Bible Prophecy -- Part One" (Strm)
"Interpreting Bible Prophecy" -- Part Two" (MP3)
"Interpreting Bible Prophecy" -- Part Two" (Str)
"Covenant Theology and Eschatology" (MP3)
"Covenant Theology and Eschatology" (Streaming)
"These Things Were Foretold" (MP3)
"These Things Were Foretold" (Streaming)
"These Things Were Foretold" (Part 2) MP3
These Things Were Foretold -- Part Two (Streaming)
"The Basic Eschatology of the New Testament" (MP3)
The Basic Eschatology of the NT (Streaming)
"Christ: The True Israel" (MP3)
Christ, the True Israel (Streaming)
"Christ: The True Temple" (MP3)
Christ, the True Temple (Streaming)
"The Two Age Model -- Part One" MP3
The Two Age Model -- Part One (Streaming)
Two Age Model (Part Two) MP3
The Two Age Model -- Part Two (Streaming)
Two-Age Model and NT Parallels (MP3)
The Two Age Model and NT Parallels (Streaming)
The Kingdom of God--Part One (MP3)
The Kingdom of God -- Part One (Streaming)
The Kingdom of God--Part Two (MP3)
The Kingdom of God -- Part Two (Streaming)
The New Creation and the Age of the Spirit (MP3)
The New Creation and the Age of the Spirit (Strm)
The Church as the Israel of God (MP3)
The Church as the Israel of God (Streaming)
"Signs of the Times" -- (Real Audio)
"Signs of the Times" -- (Streaming)
"The Biblical Doctrine of Antichrist" (Streaming)
"The Biblical Doctrine of Antichrist" (MP3)
"The Man of Lawlessness" (MP3)
"The Man of Lawlessness" (Streaming)
"The Dragon, the Beast, the False Prophet" (MP3)
"The Dragon, the Beast, the False Prophet" (Strm)
"A Problem for Preterists" (MP3)
"A Problem for Preterists" (Streaming)

The one world government belief is based on Rev 13, here are a few bolds. Sorry for the messy text, I copied it from the biblegateway site.

The First Beast
1And I saw a beast rising out of the sea,(A) with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and(B) blasphemous names on its heads. 2And the beast that I saw was(C) like a leopard; its feet were like(D) a bear’s, and its mouth was like(E) a lion’s mouth. And to it(F) the dragon gave his power and(G) his throne and great authority. 3One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and(H) the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast. 4And they worshiped the dragon, for he had given his authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying,(I) "Who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?"
5And the beast was given(J) a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for(K) forty-two months. 6It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling,[a] that is, those who dwell in heaven. 7Also it was allowed(L) to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, 8and all(M) who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in(N) the book of life of(O) the Lamb(P) who was slain. 9(Q) If anyone has an ear, let him hear:
10(R) If anyone is to be taken captive,
to captivity he goes;
(S) if anyone is to be slain with the sword,
with the sword must he be slain.

(T) Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.

The Second Beast
11Then(U) I saw another beast rising out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon. 12It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence,[c] and makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast,(V) whose mortal wound was healed. 13(W) It performs great signs, even(X) making fire come down from heaven to earth in front of people, 14and by the signs that it is allowed to work in the presence of[d] the beast(Y) it deceives those who dwell on earth, telling them to make an image for the beast(Z) that was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not(AA) worship the image of the beast(AB) to be slain. 16Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave,[e](AC) to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, 17so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is,(AD) the name of the beast or(AE) the number of its name. 18(AF) This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number(AG) of a man, and his number is 666.[f]


Riddlebarger believes that we may very well see one man who will embody all the characteristics of the antichrists who have gone before. He also upholds the view of John Murray and others that Romans 11 is indeed speaking of a revival among literal Jews from the bloodline of the Patriarchs, and while entirely rejecting dispensationalism, he proposes that the political state of Israel may well be God's means to fulfill Romans 11.

Personally- this is just me- I speak as an amillenialist- I have no problem whatsoever believeing that we are close to the end of the millenial period when satan will be unleashed and great deception will sweep over the nations. Between nuclear proliferation and 4 billion people tied to the electric grid to stay alive, I find it odd the way the Reformed community often seems to reject even the possibility that we could be very close to the Lord's return and to the time of "the antichrist", whatever that turns out to be exactly. You can believe the promises of God are to His church by faith, and not to godless Israelis in a political state, without rejecting the prophecy of Revelation 13 and a one world government.

But Ridlebarger treats this far better than I ever could. And by the way his exegesis of Daniel 9 is marvelous ( your Dispensational buddies will say it speaks of the antichrist, when in fact it speaks of Jesus Christ). He is well worth looking into.
 
This tends to be an obsession of dispensational eschatology because of their poor newspaper exegesis of Revelation. It tends to involve an unhealthy focus on world conspiracies and reading the papers to see that everything's going wrong for believers, as its meant to according to these ideas.

This type of eschatology encourages an unhealthy paranoia, which partly proves that it's not Scriptural.

According to my pretero-historicist or historical preterist interpretation, I believe that the beast from the sea represents statist persecution which was first embodied in Nero and the Roman Empire. This statist persecution, sometimes prompted by antichristian Christianity (2nd Beast) or paganism, can revive from time to time, and maybe has been more of the norm than the exception through history, in the twentieth century and in today's world.

It's always possible that for a certain period of time, organisations such as the "European Union" and the United Nations, could become more co-ordinated, become a sort of one world bid for power, and could be a manifestation of the Beast in persecuting God's people. I doubt that this is specifically prophesied in the Bible and/or the Book of Revelation, but is the persecution of Chinese Christians today by Communists specifically prophesied in the Bible?

It's always possible that some attempt at one world government could become a new manifestation of the beast, I just don't believe that it's prophesied in the Bible specifically.

It's certainly promised that the Church will eventually triumph over all her enemies in history.

If there is a one world government style persecution, I believe it will be relatively short-lived compared to the Roman Empire.

Daniel 2:41-43, indicates that the great World powers that come out of the Roman Empire (the Ten Toes corresponding to the Ten Horns in Daniel and Revelation) including e.g. the Holy Roman Empire, the Spanish Empire, the Napoleonic Empire, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Ottoman Empire, the German Empire, the British Empire, and the USA, etc, etc, etc, will not have the strength and longevity of world dominion that the Roman Empire had, because the true humanity (milk of human kindness) that comes with the spread of Christ's Kingdom is working through the world system like leaven. See e.g. Daniel 2:41-43.

Since the Fall of Rome in the West in AD 476 and in the East in AD 1453 Christ has permitted various powers to flourish and some of them to persecute the Church, but they haven't had the longevity and strength of the Roman Empire.

The attempts by various European powers and powers that have been the products of Western Christian civilisation to dominate the world and stamp out Christianity since the break up of the Roman Empire have been short-lived compared to the Roman Empire, as predicted in Scripture.

Meanwhile the Christian Kingdom and Nation is continuing to grow under Christ's hand, until she takes over the World, by God's grace, long before the Second Advent.

Here is a list of empires for empire-ologists.

Christ's Kingdom will one day incorporate all kingdoms spiritually and there will be a perfect balance of powers; "The lion will lie down with the lamb." (Isaiah 11:6).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_empires
 
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I want to thank all of you for your help, some great resources here, I am listening, have have bought some books to read as well. Please remember me in your prayers as I wrestle with these issues, and can speak on behalf of these issues to my friends in a loving manner.
 
Covenant Theology has a One World Government: it's called Christendom, and it doens't operate how wicked One Worlds think they ought to. The Church is likewise to be a One World government, or a Catholic Church. These are the only senses in which covenant theology might touch on a One World idea.

I am unsure how you came to that conclusion. A historic premillenialist (Covenantal) might well touch on such a subject, and it would certainly not be regarded as a good thing.
 
Covenant Theology has a One World Government: it's called Christendom, and it doens't operate how wicked One Worlds think they ought to. The Church is likewise to be a One World government, or a Catholic Church. These are the only senses in which covenant theology might touch on a One World idea.

I am unsure how you came to that conclusion. A historic premillenialist (Covenantal) might well touch on such a subject, and it would certainly not be regarded as a good thing.

I think that Adam is referring to the belief of Covenant Theologians and all Calvinists that Christ rules everywhere in the world as Mediatorial King unto His Church, and the belief that the prophet Daniel had by revelation that this Church-Nation-Kingdom would one day incorporate all nations, which will be achieved by the spread of the Gospel (e.g. Dan. 2:35)

It's a process in history. We might think it's too slow, but God's timing is best.
 
I was planning to establish a one-world government. Is that a bad thing?

It probably wouldn't last more than a couple generations anyway...
 
Covenant Theology has a One World Government: it's called Christendom, and it doens't operate how wicked One Worlds think they ought to. The Church is likewise to be a One World government, or a Catholic Church. These are the only senses in which covenant theology might touch on a One World idea.

I am unsure how you came to that conclusion. A historic premillenialist (Covenantal) might well touch on such a subject, and it would certainly not be regarded as a good thing.

I think that Adam is referring to the belief of Covenant Theologians and all Calvinists that Christ rules everywhere in the world as Mediatorial King unto His Church, and the belief that the prophet Daniel had by revelation that this Church-Nation-Kingdom would one day incorporate all nations, which will be achieved by the spread of the Gospel (e.g. Dan. 2:35)

It's a process in history. We might think it's too slow, but God's timing is best.

Saying "All covenant theologians" is a stretch. I do not think that when Christ spoke of his kingdom, he was speaking only in terms of the "growing reign of His church".
I am Covenantal, and Historic, and premillennial. I believe in a literal Tribulation, a literal end time battle (if you can call it a "battle") a literal antichrist, etc.

I do not think the Gospel will "slowly win the world to Christ." The reign of Christ will occur, by Christ Himself, on his return, quite suddenly. Before this, the world will become increasingly wicked and removed from God: there will be a literal time of tribulation' this could well include a one world government.
 
I am not very well-informed on this, but when I hear of one-world government I don't so much think of a literal administration. Humanly speaking that would take something to achieve, particularly since democracy is becoming the normative form of government - it might be pulled off in a world of dictators.
I sometimes wonder though if we aren't already seeing it, only in the shape of an overwhelmingly dominant moral and cultural paradigm which (except perhaps in Islamic states) rules all the rulers.
 
I am not very well-informed on this, but when I hear of one-world government I don't so much think of a literal administration. Humanly speaking that would take something to achieve, particularly since democracy is becoming the normative form of government - it might be pulled off in a world of dictators.
I sometimes wonder though if we aren't already seeing it, only in the shape of an overwhelmingly dominant moral and cultural paradigm which (except perhaps in Islamic states) rules all the rulers.

But "democracy" isn't working very well, anyway. The political elites of European nations and the EU often ignore the real wishes of their people. They patronise their people by saying. "We know best." Or they give a nod to democracy by asking them to come back again with the answer they want.

Viz. the recent repeat poll in Ireland. Now if the Irish had said "Yes" to the Lisbon Treaty the first time, do you think they'd have been offered a repeat poll? That's "democracy" for you!

Re the EU, although I don't agree with dispensational or premillenarian interpretation of the Scriptures, I'm not so naive that I don't believe that it's possible that the EU could turn into a force for persecuting Christianity at least for some period of time.

I just don't see the EU or it's posited persecution to be specifically taught in books like Revelation or Daniel as premillenarians and Dispensationalists with their largely futurist approach to Revelation 5-20 do. There are general predictions of trouble, and even in Revelation, of future governments returning from time to time to the beastly persecutory behaviour of Nero and Rome.

That has recurred again and again as we know. The world in general and civil government in particular hasn't yet become so sanctified or benign that it couldn't happen again in America or Europe. In fact it is happening today in many Muslim countries and in Communist countries. The Beast is being as beastly in some of these countries as he was under his Neronic and pagan Roman manifestations or under the medieval Antichristian manifestation of the Papacy.

Persecution already happens in subtle or not so subtle ways in Europe and America.

-----Added 11/26/2009 at 01:44:11 EST-----

I am unsure how you came to that conclusion. A historic premillenialist (Covenantal) might well touch on such a subject, and it would certainly not be regarded as a good thing.

I think that Adam is referring to the belief of Covenant Theologians and all Calvinists that Christ rules everywhere in the world as Mediatorial King unto His Church, and the belief that the prophet Daniel had by revelation that this Church-Nation-Kingdom would one day incorporate all nations, which will be achieved by the spread of the Gospel (e.g. Dan. 2:35)

It's a process in history. We might think it's too slow, but God's timing is best.

Saying "All covenant theologians" is a stretch. I do not think that when Christ spoke of his kingdom, he was speaking only in terms of the "growing reign of His church".
I am Covenantal, and Historic, and premillennial. I believe in a literal Tribulation, a literal end time battle (if you can call it a "battle") a literal antichrist, etc.

I do not think the Gospel will "slowly win the world to Christ." The reign of Christ will occur, by Christ Himself, on his return, quite suddenly. Before this, the world will become increasingly wicked and removed from God: there will be a literal time of tribulation' this could well include a one world government.

But you surely believe that Christ's Mediatorial Kingdom commenced in the First Century and that Christ at present has as much power available to Him as He will ever have, to do with as He deems good?

E.g. And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." (Matt. 28:18, ESV)

De iure Christ's Kingdom is as powerful as it will ever be, whether in the future there will be a postmillennium or premillennium or not (as the amils say).

De facto both postmils and premils believe in significant positive progress and changes in Christ's Kingdom.

Postmils believe that evil in the world will be defeated by the spread of the gospel.

Premils believe in positive progress after a period of deep darkness, by Christ physically returning to Earth. Somehow this is supposed to achieve something positive, although Christ says that when He is at His Father's right hand He already has all authority in Heaven and on Earth to do all He wishes to do.

Amils don't believe in any further progress until the Eschaton, or such a progress that will be cancelled out by a growth in evil.
 
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This is an interesting thread. I don't really have time to devote to an extended debate / discussion of eschatological views, but I'll put my two cents in.

Richard, you said,

Amils don't believe in any further progress, or such a progress that will be cancelled out by a growth in evil.​

I take this to mean 'progress in Christ's kingdom', whatever that means. The baseline for this — or foundational paradigm may be a better term — is seen in the situation of the seven churches in Rev 2 & 3. Although historically written to the seven churches in Asia — and referring to imagery and events they would be familiar with — the principles involved apply to the churches up through the centuries until the end of the age. Some will try to counter this by saying the book was written before 70 AD (the destruction of the temple) and it all applies to those days. This can be successfully refuted. It was written in the 90s of the 1st century.

Progress in Christ's kingdom for them involved staying true to Him and His gospel, even unto death. Repeatedly the churches were told the one important thing for them was to overcome....the beast [government] and its persecution of those who would not give their allegiance to it, denying that Christ was the supreme Lord....harlot Babylon and her allurements of worldly culture and perks....the false philosophies and religions of the second beast / false prophet....progress in Christ's kingdom was seen in Scripture as keeping their robes white, and bearing testimony to His Lordship and salvation.

Jesus said His kingdom was not of this world. And by Paul He says our citizenship is in Heaven (Phil 3:20). He will call and add to His church all those whose names are written in His Book of life. The world hated Him, and will hate those who follow Him. Revelation — and all the Scriptures — speak of tribulation and persecution of the saints.

To relegate the persecution to the first century is neither Biblical not historically sound.

Kim Riddlebarger in his book, The Man of Sin, does a good job tying Daniel, 2 Thess 2, 1 and 2 John, Matthew 24, and Revelation into a picture of a certain man — an individual — to come who will head a world-wide government, have influence in the "temple of God" (which in Paul's usage always refers to the NT church), and will persecute those who do not give him and his government their utter allegiance.

If one understands the beast from the sea in Rev 13 to be Rome (initially) and prototypical of all antichristian governments to come, then we can envision the development of this beast toward the very end of the "last days" and the man of sin the leader of it. Indeed, the great red dragon of Rev 12 uses the beasts and the harlot as his instruments to set up his kingdom (he has already been cast from Heaven as the accuser through the power of the Lamb's blood), for he has failed to devour the man-child and thwart His mission. All he can do now is to attempt to establish his kingdom and receive the worship / allegiance of the world — killing all those who refuse to be marked / identified as his. Here is the patience of the saints, and their being made pure as by fiery trials. Let no one tell you that we shall enter into the Kingdom without persecution. The church's progress is to stay true and pure in the midst of tribulation. The progress is in holiness, in effective testimony, and in loyalty and love to the brethren in trying times. We in the West shall learn of this, even as many in the third world already have, and are.

Those who are interested in pursuing this view of the end times, I would suggest Wm. Hendriksen's More Than Conquerers, Dennis Johnson's Triumph of the Lamb, and G.K. Beale's The Book of Revelation (this latter for those who want to study it deeply). Herman Hoeksema's Behold, He Cometh! is also good, though he errs in identifying the apostate church as Babylon, instead of simply part of Babylon.

This thorough series of MP3 sermons is also excellent: Exposition of the Book of Revelation by Arturo G. Azurdia III. Azurdia is a gifted preacher. When going through the aforementioned works, one will notice they differ occasionally on relatively minor points while agreeing in the main. One has to sort through the differences and make up one's own mind.

Clarity on this issue of eschatology is vitally important. By it we may see events in our own time in Biblical perspective, such as judgments in the earth, and what they signify. We see the conquering Lamb enthroned, opening the seven-sealed book of God's decrees for the church and the world, and executing them into action. All that happens is by the Lamb's sovereign will, for He is worthy to implement the eternal plan of the Father.

We can discern the stirring of the beast from the sea in various places, and perhaps even in its final stage slowly taking shape. We can see the beast from the land, which in John's day was the philosophers, pagan priests, promoters of emperor worship and allegiance to the Empire, but in ours have different forms but the same promoting of false religion and philosophies, so as to deceive multitudes.

And we can know that we are sealed and secure in our faith, in our eternal salvation, though we may have to suffer as we testify to our Lord, His coming judgment, and His offer of free and full pardon, through His atoning work on the cross.

I understand Sam Waldron has a book on the subject also, which I would recommend, even though I haven't read it (yet!), as his views are sound, and he does write well on topics: The End Times Made Simple: How Could Everybody Be So Wrong About Biblical Prophecy?

So, Brian, yes, a world-wide government seeking to usurp the rights of the true King, and persecuting His people, is Biblical.
 
Thanks for the recommendations on a more amil and idealist(?) perspective, Steve.

Postmillennialists believe that there is persecution of Christians in the world, but that it will reduce dramatically, as we would expect, as the Gospel makes further progress.

The focus on imminent or middle-future One World Government persecution of the Church tends to be by dispensationalist types who also believe that Revelation 6-20 is all still future, and must be interpreted as literally as possible.

They believe such things as that the 666 is going to be literally stamped on people's foreheads so we can go shopping without money or credit cards, the Freemasons, "Illuminati", and Vatican are behind the (supposed) move to a One World Government, Henry Kissenger (!?) may be the Antichrist, the "Europen Union" are the Ten Toes and Ten Horns.

Such misguided "interpretation" of the Book of Revelation is quite racy, but brings the Book of Revelation, the Bible and Christianity into disrepute, In my humble opinion.
 
I am not very well-informed on this, but when I hear of one-world government I don't so much think of a literal administration. Humanly speaking that would take something to achieve, particularly since democracy is becoming the normative form of government - it might be pulled off in a world of dictators.
I sometimes wonder though if we aren't already seeing it, only in the shape of an overwhelmingly dominant moral and cultural paradigm which (except perhaps in Islamic states) rules all the rulers.

But "democracy" isn't working very well, anyway. The political elites of European nations and the EU often ignore the real wishes of their people. They patronise their people by saying. "We know best." Or they give a nod to democracy by asking them to come back again with the answer they want.

Viz. the recent repeat poll in Ireland. Now if the Irish had said "Yes" to the Lisbon Treaty the first time, do you think they'd have been offered a repeat poll? That's "democracy" for you!

Re the EU, although I don't agree with dispensational or premillenarian interpretation of the Scriptures, I'm not so naive that I don't believe that it's possible that the EU could turn into a force for persecuting Christianity at least for some period of time.

I just don't see the EU or it's posited persecution to be specifically taught in books like Revelation or Daniel as premillenarians and Dispensationalists with their largely futurist approach to Revelation 5-20 do. There are general predictions of trouble, and even in Revelation, of future governments returning from time to time to the beastly persecutory behaviour of Nero and Rome.

That has recurred again and again as we know. The world in general and civil government in particular hasn't yet become so sanctified or benign that it couldn't happen again in America or Europe. In fact it is happening today in many Muslim countries and in Communist countries. The Beast is being as beastly in some of these countries as he was under his Neronic and pagan Roman manifestations or under the medieval Antichristian manifestation of the Papacy.

Persecution already happens in subtle or not so subtle ways in Europe and America.

-----Added 11/26/2009 at 01:44:11 EST-----

I think that Adam is referring to the belief of Covenant Theologians and all Calvinists that Christ rules everywhere in the world as Mediatorial King unto His Church, and the belief that the prophet Daniel had by revelation that this Church-Nation-Kingdom would one day incorporate all nations, which will be achieved by the spread of the Gospel (e.g. Dan. 2:35)

It's a process in history. We might think it's too slow, but God's timing is best.

Saying "All covenant theologians" is a stretch. I do not think that when Christ spoke of his kingdom, he was speaking only in terms of the "growing reign of His church".
I am Covenantal, and Historic, and premillennial. I believe in a literal Tribulation, a literal end time battle (if you can call it a "battle") a literal antichrist, etc.

I do not think the Gospel will "slowly win the world to Christ." The reign of Christ will occur, by Christ Himself, on his return, quite suddenly. Before this, the world will become increasingly wicked and removed from God: there will be a literal time of tribulation' this could well include a one world government.

But you surely believe that Christ's Mediatorial Kingdom commenced in the First Century and that Christ at present has as much power available to Him as He will ever have, to do with as He deems good?
Christ, BEFORE the first century, had as much power available to Him as He would ever had, to do with as He deems good. In fact, He had this from Eternity past. God is Immutable.

E.g. And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." (Matt. 28:18, ESV)

De facto both postmils and premils believe in significant positive progress and changes in Christ's Kingdom.

Premils believe in positive progress after a period of deep darkness, by Christ physically returning to Earth. Somehow this is supposed to achieve something positive, although Christ says that when He is at His Father's right hand He already has all authority in Heaven and on Earth to do all He wishes to do.


Not quite sure where you got this from. Pre mills believe things will "wax worse and worse." Until Christ comes back, the powers of Darkness will increase in dominance, although people on an individual level will be saved, to some degree (although these will be few). There will be no "gradual" improvement. There will be an INSTANT improvement, when Christ returns to set up his earthly, 1000 year Kingdom, after the "time of great troubles."

-----Added 11/26/2009 at 09:30:04 EST-----

The focus on imminent or middle-future One World Government persecution of the Church tends to be by dispensationalist types who also believe that Revelation 6-20 is all still future, and must be interpreted as literally as possible.

Or Historic Pre- mills like myself, who are Covenantal.

They believe such things as that the 666 is going to be literally stamped on people's foreheads so we can go shopping without money or credit cards, the Freemasons, "Illuminati", and Vatican are behind the (supposed) move to a One World Government, Henry Kissenger (!?) may be the Antichrist, the "Europen Union" are the Ten Toes and Ten Horns.

There is going to be something that has to do with that number, which is required to buy or sell, yes. That is called Literal interpretation: i.e. that is what the Bible actually says.

Such misguided "interpretation" of the Book of Revelation is quite racy, but brings the Book of Revelation, the Bible and Christianity into disrepute, In my humble opinion.

Believing what the Bible says usually brings believers into disrepute among unbelievers. We should be used to it.
 
Quote from Damon
Christ, BEFORE the first century, had as much power available to Him as He would ever had, to do with as He deems good. In fact, He had this from Eternity past. God is Immutable. E.g. And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." (Matt. 28:18, ESV)

The Son of God had all authority before the incarnation, but the God-man in His mediatorial dominion as prophet, priest and king did not. I believe this is what Jesus is speaking about here.

Quote from Damon
Quote from RichardT
De facto both postmils and premils believe in significant positive progress and changes in Christ's Kingdom.

Premils believe in positive progress after a period of deep darkness, by Christ physically returning to Earth. Somehow this is supposed to achieve something positive, although Christ says that when He is at His Father's right hand He already has all authority in Heaven and on Earth to do all He wishes to do.


Not quite sure where you got this from. Pre mills believe things will "wax worse and worse." Until Christ comes back, the powers of Darkness will increase in dominance, although people on an individual level will be saved, to some degree (although these will be few). There will be no "gradual" improvement. There will be an INSTANT improvement, when Christ returns to set up his earthly, 1000 year Kingdom, after the "time of great troubles."

I didn't say that premils believe in gradual improvement.

Quote from Damon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Tallach
The focus on imminent or middle-future One World Government persecution of the Church tends to be by dispensationalist types who also believe that Revelation 6-20 is all still future, and must be interpreted as literally as possible.

Or Historic Pre- mills like myself, who are Covenantal.

Obviously some Historic Covenant Pre-mils, like yourself. Do all historic, covenantal premils believe in imminent or middle-future One World Government persecution of the Church, that Rev 6-20 is all still future and must be interpreted as literally as possible?


Quote from Damon
RichardT
They believe such things as that the 666 is going to be literally stamped on people's foreheads so we can go shopping without money or credit cards, the Freemasons, "Illuminati", and Vatican are behind the (supposed) move to a One World Government, Henry Kissenger (!?) may be the Antichrist, the "Europen Union" are the Ten Toes and Ten Horns.

There is going to be something that has to do with that number, which is required to buy or sell, yes. That is called Literal interpretation: i.e. that is what the Bible actually says.

But Revelation is a symbolical book.

Quote:
RichardT
Such misguided "interpretation" of the Book of Revelation is quite racy, but brings the Book of Revelation, the Bible and Christianity into disrepute, In my humble opinion.

Believing what the Bible says usually brings believers into disrepute among unbelievers. We should be used to it.

Believing that the Bible says what it doesn't can bring the faith into additional and unecessary disrepute.

I agree that the Book of Revelation can be a difficult book to interpret, but starting with the principle that it should be interpreted as literally as possible seems unwise.
 
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Not quite sure where you got this from. Pre mills believe things will "wax worse and worse."

A hundred years after Christ rose from the grave how were things compared to now?

How tall were people? How many calories did they have to eat? How long were their work days? What percentage could read? How many clothes did they have? How many rights under their leaders did they have? What percentage lived past 5 years old? How many books could an average person afford to own? What did their teeth look like? What relief from pain did the average person have? How far from their place of birth did they go for vacations? How bright was the light they used after dark? How far had the Gospel gone forth from the Mideast?

When I was in Papua New Guinea during the mid 1980s, the people called the era before the first missionaries the "Time No Good". And that's pretty much what happened everywhere. I wonder (this isn't me being sarcastic since when I was a teenager growing up in a dipsy baptist church I felt like you) how a person can honestly stare history in the face and hold to that sort of pessimistic dipsy thinking. You might find your thinking challenged in the coming years after a bit of consideration ;-)
 
Not quite sure where you got this from. Pre mills believe things will "wax worse and worse."

A hundred years after Christ rose from the grave how were things compared to now?

How tall were people? How many calories did they have to eat? How long were their work days? What percentage could read? How many clothes did they have? How many rights under their leaders did they have? What percentage lived past 5 years old? How many books could an average person afford to own? What did their teeth look like? What relief from pain did the average person have? How far from their place of birth did they go for vacations? How bright was the light they used after dark? How far had the Gospel gone forth from the Mideast?

When I was in Papua New Guinea during the mid 1980s, the people called the era before the first missionaries the "Time No Good". And that's pretty much what happened everywhere. I wonder (this isn't me being sarcastic since when I was a teenager growing up in a dipsy baptist church I felt like you) how a person can honestly stare history in the face and hold to that sort of pessimistic dipsy thinking. You might find your thinking challenged in the coming years after a bit of consideration ;-)

Since I am not Charismatic, I do not gauge the increase of Gods Kingdom by things like physical health and wealth. I gauge it by other factors, such as:

#1 The degree of persecution against God's church.
FACT: There have been more Christian Martyrs in the last 100 years, than in the entire previous 19 centuries combined.

#2 The number of people getting killed by the unrighteous, period.
FACT 150 million people have been killed in wars, in the last 100 years. It has been the bloodiest century in History, outside of Old Testament events (Noah's flood).

#3 Holiness.
FACT Although in some ways the Romans were just as immoral as we are today, in other ways they were not. For example, in Roman Culture, there was a GREAT respect for parents. Also, even in regards to things like Adultery, the Roman society was not as bad as today. In that time, you could at least get away from unholy things: now, people are bombarded with them from the time of their youth. Things like p0rnography are rampant; effecting even those who desire and struggle to separate themselves unto God. This is more difficult today, than at anytime in history.

I do not know how someone can point to things like the decrease in tooth decay, as an example of the increasing presence of God's Kingdom, when unholiness, persecution against God's Church, and violent death are at an all time high.
 
Frome the 2nd Helvetic confession, section 11:

Christ IS TRULY ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN. We believe that our Lord Jesus Christ, in his same flesh, ascended above all visible heavens into the highest heaven, that is, the dwelling-place of God and the blessed ones, at the right hand of God the Father. Although it signifies an equal participation in glory and majesty, it is also taken to be a certain place about which the Lord, speaking in the Gospel, says: "I go to prepare a place for you" (John 14:2). The apostle Peter also says: "Heaven must receive Christ until the time of restoring all things" (Acts 3:21). And from heaven the same Christ will return in judgment, when wickedness will then be at its greatest in the world and when the Antichrist, having corrupted true religion, will fill up all things with superstition and impiety and will cruelly lay waste the Church with bloodshed and flames (Dan., ch. 11). But Christ will come again to claim his own, and by his coming to destroy the Antichrist, and to judge the living and the dead (Acts 17:31). For the dead will rise again (I Thess. 4:14 ff.), and those who on that day (which is unknown to all creatures [Mark 13:32]) will be alive will be changed "in the twinkling of an eye," and all the faithful will be caught up to meet Christ in the air, so that then they may enter with him into the blessed dwelling-places to live forever (I Cor. 15:51 f.). But the unbelievers and ungodly will descend with the devils into hell to burn forever and never to be redeemed from torments (Matt. 25:46).

THE SECTS. We therefore condemn all who deny a real resurrection of the flesh (II Tim. 2:18), or who with John of Jerusalem, against whom Jerome wrote, do not have a correct view of the glorification of bodies. We also condemn those who thought that the devil and all the ungodly would at some time be saved, and that there would be an end to punishments. For the Lord has plainly declared: "Their fire is not quenched, and their worm does not die" (Mark 9:44). We further condemn Jewish dreams that there will be a golden age on earth before the Day of Judgment, and that the pious, having subdued all their godless enemies, will possess all the kingdoms of the earth. For evangelical truth in Matt., chs. 24 and 25, and Luke, ch. 18, and apostolic teaching in II Thess., ch. 2, and II Tim., chs. 3 and 4, present something quite different.
 
Frome the 2nd Helvetic confession, section 11:

Christ IS TRULY ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN. We believe that our Lord Jesus Christ, in his same flesh, ascended above all visible heavens into the highest heaven, that is, the dwelling-place of God and the blessed ones, at the right hand of God the Father. Although it signifies an equal participation in glory and majesty, it is also taken to be a certain place about which the Lord, speaking in the Gospel, says: "I go to prepare a place for you" (John 14:2). The apostle Peter also says: "Heaven must receive Christ until the time of restoring all things" (Acts 3:21). And from heaven the same Christ will return in judgment, when wickedness will then be at its greatest in the world and when the Antichrist, having corrupted true religion, will fill up all things with superstition and impiety and will cruelly lay waste the Church with bloodshed and flames (Dan., ch. 11). But Christ will come again to claim his own, and by his coming to destroy the Antichrist, and to judge the living and the dead (Acts 17:31). For the dead will rise again (I Thess. 4:14 ff.), and those who on that day (which is unknown to all creatures [Mark 13:32]) will be alive will be changed "in the twinkling of an eye," and all the faithful will be caught up to meet Christ in the air, so that then they may enter with him into the blessed dwelling-places to live forever (I Cor. 15:51 f.). But the unbelievers and ungodly will descend with the devils into hell to burn forever and never to be redeemed from torments (Matt. 25:46).

THE SECTS. We therefore condemn all who deny a real resurrection of the flesh (II Tim. 2:18), or who with John of Jerusalem, against whom Jerome wrote, do not have a correct view of the glorification of bodies. We also condemn those who thought that the devil and all the ungodly would at some time be saved, and that there would be an end to punishments. For the Lord has plainly declared: "Their fire is not quenched, and their worm does not die" (Mark 9:44). We further condemn Jewish dreams that there will be a golden age on earth before the Day of Judgment, and that the pious, having subdued all their godless enemies, will possess all the kingdoms of the earth. For evangelical truth in Matt., chs. 24 and 25, and Luke, ch. 18, and apostolic teaching in II Thess., ch. 2, and II Tim., chs. 3 and 4, present something quite different.

I guess that's where they got the saying "I'm in Dutch."

:lol:

LBCF, homie. (please see Article 31).
 
#1 The degree of persecution against God's church.
FACT: There have been more Christian Martyrs in the last 100 years, than in the entire previous 19 centuries combined.

That is a totally meaningless statement. For one thing, there are more Christians now than at any point in the past. So, in the first 10 years after Christ rose from the grave 10 percent of all Christians could have been killed and that might have been only a few hundred people, while now 1,000,000 Christians could be killed, and that would only be 1 percent of total Christians.

For another, were 600,000 Armenians killed by the Turks where they had been living for 500 years because they were Christian martyrs or because of complex politics? Were 3,000,000 Poles killed because they were Christian martyrs or because they took a British treaty more seriously than common sense?

#2 The number of people getting killed by the unrighteous, period.
FACT 150 million people have been killed in wars, in the last 100 years. It has been the bloodiest century in History, outside of Old Testament events (Noah's flood).

Again, meaningless. Less people died during the Plague, but a higher percentage of the world population died of the Plague than died in the last century's wars. And why do people die less often from the Plague? Because science has finally caught up to the Bible in understanding the principles of hygiene, and it is a direct result of the Christianization of Europe.

#3 Holiness.
FACT Although in some ways the Romans were just as immoral as we are today, in other ways they were not. For example, in Roman Culture, there was a GREAT respect for parents. Also, even in regards to things like Adultery, the Roman society was not as bad as today. In that time, you could at least get away from unholy things: now, people are bombarded with them from the time of their youth. Things like p0rnography are rampant; effecting even those who desire and struggle to separate themselves unto God. This is more difficult today, than at anytime in history.

Things are illegal in Sweden today that were legal in Rome!!! Please :lol:
 
Frome the 2nd Helvetic confession, section 11:

Christ IS TRULY ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN. We believe that our Lord Jesus Christ, in his same flesh, ascended above all visible heavens into the highest heaven, that is, the dwelling-place of God and the blessed ones, at the right hand of God the Father. Although it signifies an equal participation in glory and majesty, it is also taken to be a certain place about which the Lord, speaking in the Gospel, says: "I go to prepare a place for you" (John 14:2). The apostle Peter also says: "Heaven must receive Christ until the time of restoring all things" (Acts 3:21). And from heaven the same Christ will return in judgment, when wickedness will then be at its greatest in the world and when the Antichrist, having corrupted true religion, will fill up all things with superstition and impiety and will cruelly lay waste the Church with bloodshed and flames (Dan., ch. 11). But Christ will come again to claim his own, and by his coming to destroy the Antichrist, and to judge the living and the dead (Acts 17:31). For the dead will rise again (I Thess. 4:14 ff.), and those who on that day (which is unknown to all creatures [Mark 13:32]) will be alive will be changed "in the twinkling of an eye," and all the faithful will be caught up to meet Christ in the air, so that then they may enter with him into the blessed dwelling-places to live forever (I Cor. 15:51 f.). But the unbelievers and ungodly will descend with the devils into hell to burn forever and never to be redeemed from torments (Matt. 25:46).

THE SECTS. We therefore condemn all who deny a real resurrection of the flesh (II Tim. 2:18), or who with John of Jerusalem, against whom Jerome wrote, do not have a correct view of the glorification of bodies. We also condemn those who thought that the devil and all the ungodly would at some time be saved, and that there would be an end to punishments. For the Lord has plainly declared: "Their fire is not quenched, and their worm does not die" (Mark 9:44). We further condemn Jewish dreams that there will be a golden age on earth before the Day of Judgment, and that the pious, having subdued all their godless enemies, will possess all the kingdoms of the earth. For evangelical truth in Matt., chs. 24 and 25, and Luke, ch. 18, and apostolic teaching in II Thess., ch. 2, and II Tim., chs. 3 and 4, present something quite different.

I guess that's where they got the saying "I'm in Dutch."

:lol:

LBCF, homie. (please see Article 31).


Actually it's Swiss. :lol:
 
Frome the 2nd Helvetic confession, section 11:

Christ IS TRULY ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN. We believe that our Lord Jesus Christ, in his same flesh, ascended above all visible heavens into the highest heaven, that is, the dwelling-place of God and the blessed ones, at the right hand of God the Father. Although it signifies an equal participation in glory and majesty, it is also taken to be a certain place about which the Lord, speaking in the Gospel, says: "I go to prepare a place for you" (John 14:2). The apostle Peter also says: "Heaven must receive Christ until the time of restoring all things" (Acts 3:21). And from heaven the same Christ will return in judgment, when wickedness will then be at its greatest in the world and when the Antichrist, having corrupted true religion, will fill up all things with superstition and impiety and will cruelly lay waste the Church with bloodshed and flames (Dan., ch. 11). But Christ will come again to claim his own, and by his coming to destroy the Antichrist, and to judge the living and the dead (Acts 17:31). For the dead will rise again (I Thess. 4:14 ff.), and those who on that day (which is unknown to all creatures [Mark 13:32]) will be alive will be changed "in the twinkling of an eye," and all the faithful will be caught up to meet Christ in the air, so that then they may enter with him into the blessed dwelling-places to live forever (I Cor. 15:51 f.). But the unbelievers and ungodly will descend with the devils into hell to burn forever and never to be redeemed from torments (Matt. 25:46).

THE SECTS. We therefore condemn all who deny a real resurrection of the flesh (II Tim. 2:18), or who with John of Jerusalem, against whom Jerome wrote, do not have a correct view of the glorification of bodies. We also condemn those who thought that the devil and all the ungodly would at some time be saved, and that there would be an end to punishments. For the Lord has plainly declared: "Their fire is not quenched, and their worm does not die" (Mark 9:44). We further condemn Jewish dreams that there will be a golden age on earth before the Day of Judgment, and that the pious, having subdued all their godless enemies, will possess all the kingdoms of the earth. For evangelical truth in Matt., chs. 24 and 25, and Luke, ch. 18, and apostolic teaching in II Thess., ch. 2, and II Tim., chs. 3 and 4, present something quite different.

I guess that's where they got the saying "I'm in Dutch."

:lol:

LBCF, homie. (please see Article 31).


Actually it's Swiss. :lol:

My apologies: is not this confession of Faith most commonly tied to the "Dutch reformed" churches? Outside my particular area of expertise.
 
Since I am not Charismatic, I do not gauge the increase of Gods Kingdom by things like physical health and wealth. I gauge it by other factors, such as:
Curious that you say that, and then list some things that most folks would call issues of health as your barometer. Being killed is somewhat of a health issue, is it not?
#3 Holiness.
FACT Although in some ways the Romans were just as immoral as we are today, in other ways they were not. For example, in Roman Culture, there was a GREAT respect for parents. Also, even in regards to things like Adultery, the Roman society was not as bad as today. In that time, you could at least get away from unholy things: now, people are bombarded with them from the time of their youth. Things like p0rnography are rampant; effecting even those who desire and struggle to separate themselves unto God. This is more difficult today, than at anytime in history.
Brother, Rome was not the only culture present in the world then. A cursory study of the other cultures and empires extant in the first century would clearly demonstrate that despite the vulgarity of modern cultures, they pale in comparison to those in the Americas, Asia, the Pacific Isles, Northern Europe, Africa, etc. & etc. Ever seen a Nepalese Buddhist temple? Vulgarity unmatched, and revelled in even by the children of that culture.
 
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