[quote:8645511a5a="Scot"]Fred,
I'm not trying to resurrect an old debate, I'm just trying to understand both sides of this issue, so please don't think I'm arguing or trying to cause trouble here.
I've been going back and forth with some gentlemen that hold the same position as Mr. Warren and would like you to take a look at what one of them had to say:
[quote:8645511a5a]Neither Mr. Warren or Ian Potts ("Grace and Truth Online") deny the faithful works of Jesus Christ; indeed, they emphasize His works were obedient unto death, which is the very Gospel.
We believe that we have received the very attribute of faith of the Lord Jesus Christ, by which we were justified and reconciled with God the Father according to grace. We also believe that our human accountability before Holy God was met, according to grace, by the Man Jesus Christ in His perfect obedience and love manifested before the Father.
"For us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through Whom we live." I Corinthians 8:6
"Now when all things are made subject to Him, the the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all." I Corinthians 15:28
"As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man." I Corinthians 15:48&49
We have faith in God because Christ was faithful.
We are declared righteous before God because Christ was perfectly obedient; even unto death. Human accountability has been met in the human Nature and Person of Jesus Christ.
"This is a faithful saying:
For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him. If we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us. If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.'" II Timothy 2:11-13
We do not believe these are heretical beliefs at all.
It is not heresy to give God all the glory for all things.
[/quote:8645511a5a]
I do not believe that the men holding this position are denying man's responsibility or denying that we are saved by Christ's work. Wasn't it because Christ was FAITHFUL that he finished the work that the father gave him to do?
Just trying to understand here.[/quote:8645511a5a]
Dan,
There are several things going on. First, faith and faithfulness are different things, different theological concepts. As soon as we begin conflating the two, we have huge problems with Pauline passages such as:
the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction...whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:22, 25-26)
Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God (Romans 5:2)
What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith (Romans 9:30)
yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified (Gal. 2:16)
The problem is that if faith is read as faithfulness (whether of the believer, a-la NPP, or of Christ, a-la Warren), and not as rather the instrument whereby we have received the work and merit of Christ, then we have a problem with Rom. 3:22 and Gal. 2:16. Because there faith is instrumental. so we are left with two choices: (1) to eliminate anything that the believer does, whether by the power of God or not, and make it the faith of Christ (which is itself a heretical belief, because faith is part and parcel of a fallen man - for now we see be faith, not sight, but then face to face); or (2) make it faithfulness and keep the instrumentality (so, NPP) and works sneaks into our salvation.
But there is another problem with Warren's position - and that is with respect to repentance. For we read very clearly in the Scriptures of repentance for salvation (what the Confession calls "repentance unto life") and it would be indeed strange to make that the "repentance of Christ." But if it is our repentance, then how do we avoid Warren's scathing words:
[quote:8645511a5a="Warren"]"œThe most common distortion in the Church today of 'the doctrine of Grace' is in Christians attempting to make faith an action on our part, rather than humbly accepting that the faith we have is by the sovereign action of God. No one has faith of their own free will, faith comes by the divine will of God, through the gracious work of Christ. Yet in many circles we are continually told that the scriptures should read our 'faith in Christ,' rather than the 'faith of Christ.'
This in itself is curious because all Christian Theologians readily admit that faith is 'necessary' for Salvation, and yet many of them will just as readily (and illogically) conclude that this 'requirement' is not a work, nor any effort on their part. But how something can be required (meaning it's necessary to be done), and yet somehow not be an action required (work), bridges on the nonsensical. How can we possibly harmonize the conclusion that the faith to believe is 'our' faith (not the faith of Christ), and yet still profess that it is not an effort on our part? If it's our faith, then it's our effort. To say anything less makes the gospel both disjointed and contradictory. Moreover, we are commanded of God to have faith. And so how then is it not a work, when we are told that it is something which must be done?"[/quote:8645511a5a]
As I wrote before:
[quote:8645511a5a="Fred Greco"]God does indeed give faith (and repentance as well) to us, and it indeed becomes ours. But it is not a substance that God had to have before He could give it to us. Faith is [u:8645511a5a]not a substance[/u:8645511a5a]. It is nothing more (or less) than trusting the promises of God. That is why there will be no faith in eternity (cf. 1 Cor. 13; Romans 8:24), because where there is true sight, faith is not needed any longer (cf. Hebrews 11:1, where faith is the evidence of things unseen). A man such as Christ was (truly man as well as truly God) does not need faith, because He has SIGHT. The reason that sight is opposed to faith in the Bible is because now "œwe see through a glass dimly" (1 Cor. 13:12). Remember that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever (Hebrews 13:8). We do not need His "œfaith;" we need His righteousness "" to put it in visual images, we need His clean robes. It is INSUFFICIENT for us to simply stand naked before the throne having our filthy rags removed. We need to be clothed in the righteousness of Christ[/quote:8645511a5a]
I don't necessarily object to what you quoted the person as saying, except that it is very imprecise and potentially misleading. Christ's works do save us. And they are faithful in the sense that (to use an earthly analogy) a soldier is faithful to do what he should. But they are not faithful in the sense that they took faith for Christ to perform them. He did not need faith. He was perfect, sinless and God. Only sinners need faith. Faith is not a substance that is passed from Christ to us. God graciously accounts Christ's work to us (Romans 5 AGAIN!! - this is a MUST text!!). But is not God's faith.
That is where the error is:
[quote:8645511a5a="The quoted person"]We believe that we have received the very attribute of faith of the Lord Jesus Christ, by which we were justified and reconciled with God the Father according to grace. We also believe that our human accountability before Holy God was met, according to grace, by the Man Jesus Christ in His perfect obedience and love manifested before the Father[/quote:8645511a5a]
The second sentence is true. The first is not. We did not receive faith. We received RIGHTEOUSNESS. We are not saved on account of faith (as some sort of substance). We are saved "by" or through" (instrumentally) faith. This is the battle cry of the Reformation. It might seem like a theological nicety, but it is not. Christ's works are counted as our own by God's grace, and come to use through OUR faith, which is the work of God IN US. Our sins are not simply waved away, they are PAID for by the work of Christ.
See my posts here for more detail:
http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1917&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=55
http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1917&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=57
http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1917&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=59
