OK, convince me of Postmillenialism
- Thread starter Curt
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steven-nemes
Puritan Board Sophomore
Would you not rather be convinced of the non-literal (wink) truth?
awretchsavedbygrace
Puritan Board Sophomore
Berean
Puritanboard Commissioner
I spoke to God. He said you werent predestined to hold this view....
Was this a word of knowledge? I think I saw that on the 700 Club this morning...or was it on 'the rosary with Mother Angelica' on EWTN?
Curt
Puritan Board Graduate
I'm climbing around on the slippery wet bank of Optimistic Amil and one slippery step could send me slipping off the bank and into the Postmill stream, never to return.
Is one foot on a banana peel?
awretchsavedbygrace
Puritan Board Sophomore
I spoke to God. He said you werent predestined to hold this view....
Was this a word of knowledge? I think I saw that on the 700 Club this morning...or was it on 'the rosary with Mother Angelica' on EWTN?
All of them. And my personal faviorte. TBN. Trinity BroadCasting Network...ahhh..that's the best one out there.
-----Added 6/10/2009 at 10:13:54 EST-----
Assuming you havent seen this tv station. I think youtube might have some videos. Charasmania at its finest.
Theognome
Burrito Bill
This book gives a simple read to the subject-
Amazon.com: Postmillennialism: An Eschatology of Hope: Keith A. Mathison: Books
Theognome
Amazon.com: Postmillennialism: An Eschatology of Hope: Keith A. Mathison: Books
Theognome
Curt
Puritan Board Graduate
How does it compare with Jack Davis's Christ's Victorious Kingdom? I'm rereading that now.
Theognome
Burrito Bill
I haven't read that one, so I can't give a comparison- only a recommendation for the Mathison book. It's a great starting place for someone wanting to learn the basics of the Postmillenial view.
Theognome
kalawine
Puritan Board Junior
I'm climbing around on the slippery wet bank of Optimistic Amil and one slippery step could send me slipping off the bank and into the Postmill stream, never to return.
Is one foot on a banana peel?
YEP!
CNJ
Puritan Board Senior
Almost a Postmil Also
Convince you
We record our struggles on a blog. Millennial Dreams
There are lots of resources on that blog. But I stopped studying for a while. When I start again, it is with reading Gentry's new 3rd Edition of He Shall Have Dominion, fresh off the press.
I am almost convinced of postmil. Certain things we are predestined to not accept, e.g., sin in our lives. However, there are wonderful people in postmil, amil, and historical premil that are all Reformed in their orientation.
Convince you
We record our struggles on a blog. Millennial Dreams
There are lots of resources on that blog. But I stopped studying for a while. When I start again, it is with reading Gentry's new 3rd Edition of He Shall Have Dominion, fresh off the press.
I am almost convinced of postmil. Certain things we are predestined to not accept, e.g., sin in our lives. However, there are wonderful people in postmil, amil, and historical premil that are all Reformed in their orientation.
Peairtach
Puritan Board Doctor
Can Jesus fail? Can He be less successful in taking possession of the Earth than David and Solomon were in taking possession of the land that God gave them, from the Euphrates to the Great Sea (Medi)?
He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth. (Psalm 72:8)
According to amillenialism history - including church history - is going nowhere.
He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth. (Psalm 72:8)
According to amillenialism history - including church history - is going nowhere.
sastark
Puritan Board Graduate
"Sit at my right hand until I make Your enemies Your footstool"
"...Your Kingdom come, on earth, as it is in heaven..."
"Go and make disciples of all nations..."
"And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to Him, and He went out conquering and to conquer."
"...Your Kingdom come, on earth, as it is in heaven..."
"Go and make disciples of all nations..."
"And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to Him, and He went out conquering and to conquer."
Jon Peters
Puritan Board Sophomore
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”
Confessor
Puritan Board Senior
An unimpeded logical implication of this is that Christ's kingdom affects none of this earth, which is clearly false. If you suppose "my kingdom is not of this world" to mean that it is not manifested on Earth, then where do you draw the line to "cut off" this logical implication?
sastark
Puritan Board Graduate
But His kingdom is in the world, but not of this world. It rules this world, but this world is not its origin.
John 17:15-16
I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
Sven
Puritan Board Sophomore
Excuse me? Ummm...that is quite untrue. According to Ammillenialism history, especially church history, is marching forward to the final consumation when Christ returns to judge the living and the dead, and to openly acknowledge and acquit all those who believe on Him. We are awaiting the day when the kingdom of God will be fully realized, when there is no more mixture of wheat and chaff in the Church of Christ, but will be a pure and spotless bride. That, my friend, is where history is going. Just because we ammillenialists think of success differently than do the posties, doesn't mean we think history is going nowhere. Get the doctrines of those you disagree with straight.
Roldan
Puritan Board Junior
Yup and all this will occur at the consummation of all things, at His coming but not before, to think so is to participate in "Jewish Dreams"......None of the verses offered by our Postmil brothers necessitate a postmil interpretation but rather seeing these fulfillments in Christ coming to once and for all destroy all His enemies hence the "until" and "til" key words, is to correctly exegete these passages. But I've gone through this here on these board exhaustively so not really interested in going back and forth, just thought I share some thoughts, carry on.
-----Added 6/11/2009 at 01:27:10 EST-----
Thank you.....that is one of the weakest arguments that have duped individuals into postmil thinking while not even knowing what the other camps views are, anyone need a straw? this is very frustrating including the whole so called "optimistic amil" as if we believed in a defeated foe....
R Harris
Puritan Board Sophomore
Here you go with a few more passages:
Psalm 22:27
ALLthe ends of the earth shall REMEMBER
and turn to the LORD,
and ALL the families of the nations
shall worship before you.
Psalm 86:9
ALL the nations you have made SHALL COME
and worship before you, O Lord,
and shall glorify your name.
Revelation 15:3,4
And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying,
"Great and amazing are your deeds,
O Lord God the Almighty!
Just and true are your ways,
O King of the nations!
Who will not fear, O Lord,
and glorify your name?
For you alone are holy.
All nations will come
and worship you,
for your righteous acts have been revealed."
And to tag along with the comments above about Christ not returning until His enemies have been made a footstool for his feet, here is one more from Hebrews 10:12-13:
But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.
So Christ waits IN HEAVEN until his enemies are made a footstool for his feet. Have Christ enemies already been subjected to him? Hardly.
I have yet to see any serious rejoinder to these passages from premils or amils.
Premils claim the Psalm passages above and the other obvious optimistic passages throughout Scripture happen during the 1000 year reign; but obviously the debate has always been if (1) they can prove conclusively that the "1000 years" of Revelation 20 is a literal 1000 year period as opposed to a long aeon of time, and (2) they must explain why there is no mention of a literal 1000 year period of Christ visibly, bodily reigning in Jerusalem anywhere else in Scripture (The Micah 4 chapter says nothing of time duration, and the Revelation 20 passage mentions nothing of location. The premil scheme is simply a disjointed jigsaw puzzle of verses weaved together to give an appearance of the doctrine being valid).
Regarding the literalness of the 1000 number, Gentry does a good job of giving numerous examples where the number 1000 is not used in a literal sense (e.g. Psalm 50:10, the "thousand" hills; are there literally only a thousand hills on the earth? How do you define what a hill is?)
Psalm 22:27
ALLthe ends of the earth shall REMEMBER
and turn to the LORD,
and ALL the families of the nations
shall worship before you.
Psalm 86:9
ALL the nations you have made SHALL COME
and worship before you, O Lord,
and shall glorify your name.
Revelation 15:3,4
And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying,
"Great and amazing are your deeds,
O Lord God the Almighty!
Just and true are your ways,
O King of the nations!
Who will not fear, O Lord,
and glorify your name?
For you alone are holy.
All nations will come
and worship you,
for your righteous acts have been revealed."
And to tag along with the comments above about Christ not returning until His enemies have been made a footstool for his feet, here is one more from Hebrews 10:12-13:
But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.
So Christ waits IN HEAVEN until his enemies are made a footstool for his feet. Have Christ enemies already been subjected to him? Hardly.
I have yet to see any serious rejoinder to these passages from premils or amils.
Premils claim the Psalm passages above and the other obvious optimistic passages throughout Scripture happen during the 1000 year reign; but obviously the debate has always been if (1) they can prove conclusively that the "1000 years" of Revelation 20 is a literal 1000 year period as opposed to a long aeon of time, and (2) they must explain why there is no mention of a literal 1000 year period of Christ visibly, bodily reigning in Jerusalem anywhere else in Scripture (The Micah 4 chapter says nothing of time duration, and the Revelation 20 passage mentions nothing of location. The premil scheme is simply a disjointed jigsaw puzzle of verses weaved together to give an appearance of the doctrine being valid).
Regarding the literalness of the 1000 number, Gentry does a good job of giving numerous examples where the number 1000 is not used in a literal sense (e.g. Psalm 50:10, the "thousand" hills; are there literally only a thousand hills on the earth? How do you define what a hill is?)
Roldan
Puritan Board Junior
Again, these passages will be fulfilled at His coming, no need to force a postmil interpretation into the text.
Confessor
Puritan Board Senior
The typical postmil rejoinder to this is that some passages, such as Isaiah 65:20, must be referring to the millennium, for they speak of death.
However, I am presently unaware of other passages that fit the same category (pointing to prosperity that cannot exist in the new heavens and new earth), due to limited study on my part.
Theognome
Burrito Bill
Let's not forget that regarding the millennium in Rev. 20, Amillennialism simply states that it is occuring now, while Postmillenialism professes that it doesn't begin until after Christ comes. The discussion as to what happens during said millennium is secondary to this issue.
Theognome
Theognome
R Harris
Puritan Board Sophomore
Confessor
Puritan Board Senior
Greg Bahnsen said in his Victory in Jesus book on postmil that the majority of postmillennarians agree with amillennarians on the timing of the millennium but disagree only on the nature of it. He himself employed the same arguments for the timing of the millennium that amillennarians have used.
Theognome
Burrito Bill
I'm at work and without various resources, but I'm not in agrement with Greg Bahnsen on that. Even just a cursory look at the terms themselves ( post VS a) shows otherwise.
Theognome
Confessor
Puritan Board Senior
He also made the point that the terms describing the positions were poorly chosen.
Additionally, he made that point in one of the first three chapters of the book, which were transcribed lectures. Therefore it is doubtful that he cited anything on it.Really though, "post-" and "a-" don't themselves seem to indicate a different timing of the millennium. The former indicates when Christ will return in relation to the millennium, and the latter indicates that there will not be a millennium of earthly prosperity.
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