Nudity

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I wince too... but it isn't because I believe that it is sinful for them to be naked in front of the mirror in the locker room. I wince because it's a gross sight to behold. :eek:

I think that's what were saying, it's gross to see it and gross for others to see us, so it's best to avoid!
 
I wince too... but it isn't because I believe that it is sinful for them to be naked in front of the mirror in the locker room. I wince because it's a gross sight to behold. :eek:

I think that's what were saying, it's gross to see it and gross for others to see us, so it's best to avoid!

I was trying to be humorous.

The problem is that a lot of what we call wrong, we call it wrong because to us it is "gross," or "wierd." If (to us) something is gross/disgusting/yucky then that simply MUST mean that it is wrong. But morality is not properly determined by "yuck-factor."
 
The problem is that a lot of what we call wrong, we call it wrong because to us it is "gross," or "wierd." If (to us) something is gross/disgusting/yucky then that simply MUST mean that it is wrong. But morality is not properly determined by "yuck-factor."

Yes, I agree with you that it's not wrong. I'm only theoretically standing at the defensive point for the position of people who are uncomfortable with nudity between the same sex. I think some people are created by God to be shy around others, and others not to even be bothered by other people. Some are outgoing and love being around people; some like being alone and studying (or whatever) by themselves.
 
you know, there is a danger when people say, "looking to lust" is the problem, so as long as i am looking, but not to lust, it's ok. The answer to that is while it's true that if it weren't to lust it wouldn't be a problem, the main reason people actually look on nudity (as opposed to seeing) is to lust.
But there are also dangers when we forget that it is the lust that is prohibited and that is the problem, and prominent among those dangers is the danger of falling into the trap of our cultural mindset that holds that practically everything is sexual. Humans are more than copulators, and human society includes far more than copulation: We contribute to the decivilization of our society when we allow ourselves to assume or give advice on the premise that lust is (almost) always behind (almost) everything.

amen!
 
I wince too... but it isn't because I believe that it is sinful for them to be naked in front of the mirror in the locker room. I wince because it's a gross sight to behold. :eek:

I think that's what were saying, it's gross to see it and gross for others to see us, so it's best to avoid!

I was trying to be humorous.

The problem is that a lot of what we call wrong, we call it wrong because to us it is "gross," or "wierd." If (to us) something is gross/disgusting/yucky then that simply MUST mean that it is wrong. But morality is not properly determined by "yuck-factor."

Haven't you ever heard the saying "Ugly as sin"? There has to be a connection there somewhere. Something along the lines of "So ugly, it's sinful" :lol:
 
Is it permissible for a Christian watch:

- football games with scantily and immodestly dressed cheerleaders

- Deal or No Deal models in miniskirts and low cut dresses

- Olympic divers with scanty bathing suits

- TV in general with multiple ads and shows showing immodestly dressed women

Should churches discipline women who attend church dressed in an immodest fashion, or wear makeup, or pearls?

Is it really necessary for cheerleaders to wear miniskirts or are they just being used as sex objects?

I fear that if I were to totally avoid immodestly dressed women I would have to totally avoid TV.

I wonder if societies that have lots of nudity may have less lust because nudity really isn't that stimulating after a while.

Wow wouldn't that be horrible if you had to not watch TV??

Might as well stop living eh?

As for the rest of the issues raised here they are all irrelevant.

It doesn't matter whether nudity makes you lust or not. The scripture does not only forbid lust, it demands we not be naked. That is it.
Men with men or otherwise there is no reason to go along with the world to allowing it. As quoted in the scriptures above.

And yes churches should discipline women or men for dressing immodestly. The should speak to the husband or father and have it corrected.

Jer 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, KJV

Phil 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy — meditate on these things. NKJV

Eph 5:8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9(for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. 13 But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light. NKJV
 
Wasn't one of Noah's sons cursed for seeing something he shouldn't have? Nothing is sacred anymore. The world treats nudity in the worlds way just as it talks in the worlds way. Yes I am guilty. I am a man of unclean lips and I dwell amongst people with unclean lips. But that doesn't justify anything.

Noah's sons was not cursed for seeing Noah as being physically naked. After Noah drank of the wine of his garden, he was seen by Ham in his "nakedness", and "told his brothers outside". It does not say that Noah was not wearing physical clothes. But his nakedness was exposed as were Adam and Eve's nakedness was exposed when they sinned. Noah's sin nature was exposed when the wine removed his inhibitions. He became undressed spiritually. Ham sin was that he "saw" Noah in his natural state, not wearing the clothes of righteousness, and proceeded to mock Noah to his brothers. No doubt, exposing Noah as a impostor as a man of perfect righteousness. Noah was no different than any of the other antediluvians. He was just as wicked as any of them and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all of the time (There is none righteous, not even one).

BUT!!! Noah found "GRACE" in the eyes of the Lord. In other words God "saw" Noah as being a just man and "perfect" in his generation. Because God had "clothed" him in Christ's righteousness. Not because of anything that Noah had done, or who he was, but just like Jacob, God "loved" Noah.

Ham was cursed for mocking and undressing one of the elect. He was cursed for slandering the character of one the elect as being just as corrupt as anyone else. God will not hold anyone guiltless for slandering one of His elect because it dishonors His Son.



You obviously didn't pay any attention to my second post.

(Gen 9:21) And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

(Gen 9:22) And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

(Gen 9:23) And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

I have seen the commentaries that imply what you are saying. But there seems to be assumption in those commentaries. Maybe I am missing something. If that was the whole problem why did the sons not just walk in and cover him up. The scriptures do specifically say that the other two went in in such a way as to not look upon the nakedness of their father. So I would say that there was a shame in seeing the nakedness.

Your interpretation has many problems as Lane has pointed out.
 
Is it permissible for a Christian watch:

- football games with scantily and immodestly dressed cheerleaders

- Deal or No Deal models in miniskirts and low cut dresses

- Olympic divers with scanty bathing suits

- TV in general with multiple ads and shows showing immodestly dressed women

Should churches discipline women who attend church dressed in an immodest fashion, or wear makeup, or pearls?

Is it really necessary for cheerleaders to wear miniskirts or are they just being used as sex objects?

I fear that if I were to totally avoid immodestly dressed women I would have to totally avoid TV.

I wonder if societies that have lots of nudity may have less lust because nudity really isn't that stimulating after a while.

Wow wouldn't that be horrible if you had to not watch TV??

Might as well stop living eh?

As for the rest of the issues raised here they are all irrelevant.

It doesn't matter whether nudity makes you lust or not. The scripture does not only forbid lust, it demands we not be naked. That is it.
Men with men or otherwise there is no reason to go along with the world to allowing it. As quoted in the scriptures above.

And yes churches should discipline women or men for dressing immodestly. The should speak to the husband or father and have it corrected.

Jer 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, KJV

Phil 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy — meditate on these things. NKJV

Eph 5:8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9(for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. 13 But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light. NKJV

Living without TV is definitely not horrible. I have gone years without TV with no real problem.

If TV were eliminated from North America we would have far less obesity and more cohesive neighborhoods.

Is it proper for cheerleaders and people in hot climates to expose their legs, bellies, backs, etc.

Does dressing modestly like the Bible commands necessitate full coverage of legs and torso in loose clothing?

Don, how do you define nudity?

-----Added 8/9/2009 at 01:04:04 EST-----

BTW, this is yet another issue I am not firm about.

One of the reasons I stopped watching TV in the past is that the constant exposure of nude female thighs, etc. that seemed to violate Christian norms. I have since had a rethink.
 
I have long held that if you want to stimulate a large number of replies and views, then incorporate the words 'naked' and 'baptism' in your post title. "Are Naked Baptisms Biblical?", for example, would eat up half the bandwidth on the internet.

Thanks, I most certainly need that this morning.
 
"Human beings are more than copulators" - ha, another great quote from PIE-THREE-ACK.

P.s. Does anyone here refuse to go to art museums due to the Reniassance P0-rn?

P.s.s. Should lady justice in our gov't building have her breast covered?

py3ak is pronounced ROO-zak, If I recall correctly. Or maybe you knew that and were just being silly. :)

There is something troubling in considering pictures of certain nudity to be art, which would "make it okay." That sounds like a perfect example of rationalizing sin. "Welp, I remember that one time I looked up naked woman art on the internet..." Some will respond to that statement, "Oh but that's not art that's obviously to incite lust." Oh really? So you believe that the Renaissance p0rn doesn't incite lust? Or, if I wasn't tempted by naked women the websites would be okay? Besides, since when is temptation the determining factor in what is sinful to behold? Consider the art of cultures past, like the Egyptians. Look at the statue of their God of reproduction. How artistic! It sure as all get-out isn't tempting but it is SHAMEFUL to look at.

Should our lady justice cover up? Yes. YES. Why would I have a different standard for "art" women than for actual women? If a woman isn't covered than I want to keep her out of my mind and sight. If a portrayed woman isn't covered, then to be consistent I would likewise want to keep her out of my mind and sight.

Py3wak is pronounced PROZAC? did you say?





Question: Do you like Rodin's the Thinker or that greek sculpture of the discus thrower? Ithink these are great works of art, even if the figures are nude males. Am I deluded? Should we cart these sculptures off to a closet somewhere or demolish them?

If this is not possible, then will the readers of this post at least admit a difference in degree of heinousness. To clump National Geo and missionary slideshows and anthropological documentaries into the same category as Girls Gone Wild defies common sense and is one reason why the world (which often has more common sense than we do) thinks the Christian faith makes people stupid and unable to process any nuance.


Is it possible to like sculptures and admire the beauty of chiseled rock without sexualizing it?

-----Added 8/9/2009 at 06:43:19 EST-----

Is it permissible for a Christian watch:

- football games with scantily and immodestly dressed cheerleaders

- Deal or No Deal models in miniskirts and low cut dresses

- Olympic divers with scanty bathing suits

- TV in general with multiple ads and shows showing immodestly dressed women

Should churches discipline women who attend church dressed in an immodest fashion, or wear makeup, or pearls?

Is it really necessary for cheerleaders to wear miniskirts or are they just being used as sex objects?

I fear that if I were to totally avoid immodestly dressed women I would have to totally avoid TV.

I wonder if societies that have lots of nudity may have less lust because nudity really isn't that stimulating after a while.

Wow wouldn't that be horrible if you had to not watch TV??

Might as well stop living eh?

As for the rest of the issues raised here they are all irrelevant.

It doesn't matter whether nudity makes you lust or not. The scripture does not only forbid lust, it demands we not be naked. That is it.
Men with men or otherwise there is no reason to go along with the world to allowing it. As quoted in the scriptures above.

And yes churches should discipline women or men for dressing immodestly. The should speak to the husband or father and have it corrected.

Jer 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, KJV

Phil 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy — meditate on these things. NKJV

Eph 5:8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9(for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. 13 But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light. NKJV

Don:

In your crusade against tv, did you think how much more evil the internet then would be and how easy it is to either purposely access bad stuff or else stumble upon stuff on the net? If we cannot watch tv without being soiled with the world, it is much much harder on the net since there is even a greater potential to sin.

Sounds like you need not only to throw out the boob-tube but also to go off-line as well.
 
Pergy:

In cultures were nudity is much more common are the males as sex obsessed as North Americans are?

What I see in our society are females that are 95% nude when they are in swimwear, 50% nude when they are in the mall and often 50 to 95% nude on TV.

In many "primitive" societies the women are 100% nude, and I suspect there is less lust. Am I right?

Should women dress modestly, without makeup, without pearls and with everything covered except head, hands and feet?

I'm confused.
 
Pergy:

In cultures were nudity is much more common are the males as sex obsessed as North Americans are?

...

In many "primitive" societies the women are 100% nude, and I suspect there is less lust. Am I right?

Paul - The immorality in "primitive" societies is off the charts.
 
Pergy:

In cultures were nudity is much more common are the males as sex obsessed as North Americans are?

...

In many "primitive" societies the women are 100% nude, and I suspect there is less lust. Am I right?

Paul - The immorality in "primitive" societies is off the charts.

Please forgive my ignorance, I have never been outside Canada or the US.

Is this immorality due to nudity or non- Christian beliefs.

Please again forgive me for my next question:

There are Christian groups that practise nudism. How is their behavior? Are they holy in any respect? I honestly don't know.

Which Christian groups really dress appropriately. Every assembly of Christians I've seen has had women in short skirts.

Believe it or not, there are American Christian universities that have cheerleaders in miniskirts.

There are devout Christians that watch figure skaters in scanty clothing and divers in skimpy bathing suits and think there is nothing wrong.

Ben, are miniskirts proper, what about skimpy bathing suits?

How immodest can a woman dress and still be holy?

This is a treacherous topic because when we criticize others we can easily condemn ourselves.

I can't read other people's minds. Maybe they can view nude bodies and not lust.
 
...Or reading a medical manual?

Anyone who would read a medical manual just to see the drawings and/or photographs of people naked really, really, really needs to take up stamp collecting, or something... :lol:

I never thought of Gray's Anatomy as a source for "entertainment."
 
...Or reading a medical manual?

Anyone who would read a medical manual just to see the drawings and/or photographs of people naked really, really, really needs to take up stamp collecting, or something... :lol:

I never thought of Gray's Anatomy as a source for "entertainment."
Maybe they should switch anatomy to pathology. Yuk!

By the way, never thought a thread on PB will be blocked by my internet filter for p_rn_grap_y. Nice work guys! Haha.

I don't think by simply "I'm not objectifying to it" gives us the right to look at nudity as Mr. py3ack aka Roo-zak aka Prozac said.

To Paul, on another note, I'm of my own opinion that most Christian girls are either ignorant or couldn't be bothered with how their dressing and behavior affects us guys. Even if you could somehow make leeway for skimpy bathing suits (I'm drawing an exaggeration for example) or even low cut tops, the very fact that it might induce fellow men to sin ought to raise a red flag.

Pergs, looks like this thread is a real have pot will stir thread. :stirpot::popcorn:
 
Pergy:

In cultures were nudity is much more common are the males as sex obsessed as North Americans are?

What I see in our society are females that are 95% nude when they are in swimwear, 50% nude when they are in the mall and often 50 to 95% nude on TV.

In many "primitive" societies the women are 100% nude, and I suspect there is less lust. Am I right?

Should women dress modestly, without makeup, without pearls and with everything covered except head, hands and feet?

I'm confused.

I know that those in the Muslim world have a solution for your questions.

-----Added 8/9/2009 at 11:19:52 EST-----

Pergy:

In cultures were nudity is much more common are the males as sex obsessed as North Americans are?

What I see in our society are females that are 95% nude when they are in swimwear, 50% nude when they are in the mall and often 50 to 95% nude on TV.

In many "primitive" societies the women are 100% nude, and I suspect there is less lust. Am I right?

Should women dress modestly, without makeup, without pearls and with everything covered except head, hands and feet?

I'm confused.

There is a lot of lust for thighs, but not as much for breasts. In the Mslm part of the islands I heard a Mslm man expound on the eroticism of a woman's hair (in a place where most women wear coverings).

-----Added 8/9/2009 at 11:23:00 EST-----

QUESTION: If Christians really gained an influence over society, what would we do with the art museums?
 
In the Mslm part of the islands I heard a Mslm man expound on the eroticism of a woman's hair (in a place where most women wear coverings).

-----Added 8/9/2009 at 11:23:00 EST-----

This is my problem. I am not arguing for nudity, yet it seems that when we cover body parts like the Muslims cover female heads, the lust for these body parts increases.

I don't know how Christians should view nude art pieces.

How much nudity was present during Jesus' time? When Peter jumped from the boat, what was he wearing?
 
Don:

In your crusade against tv, did you think how much more evil the internet then would be and how easy it is to either purposely access bad stuff or else stumble upon stuff on the net? If we cannot watch tv without being soiled with the world, it is much much harder on the net since there is even a greater potential to sin.

Sounds like you need not only to throw out the boob-tube but also to go off-line as well.

That sounds sensible if it stops us to sin. There's a balance of course so we don't throw out good things with the bad. My practice is to use opendns to filter out all "time-wasting sites". The only non-work related stuff that my opendns settings allow is forums and news. I'd recommend it.
 
Don:

In your crusade against tv, did you think how much more evil the internet then would be and how easy it is to either purposely access bad stuff or else stumble upon stuff on the net? If we cannot watch tv without being soiled with the world, it is much much harder on the net since there is even a greater potential to sin.

Sounds like you need not only to throw out the boob-tube but also to go off-line as well.

That sounds sensible if it stops us to sin. There's a balance of course so we don't throw out good things with the bad. My practice is to use opendns to filter out all "time-wasting sites". The only non-work related stuff that my opendns settings allow is forums and news. I'd recommend it.

Yes, I recommend the AFA filter online (American Family filter), but even with that I had a news blog with racy pics get through just this month.

Of course, I posted this response to Don in sort of a challenging way since he spoke so much against tv while typing online, a far greater place of danger, which I found ironic.
 
Lewis Grizzard once stated that if you were "Naked" you were simply without your clothes. If you were "Nekked" you were without your clothes and you were "UP TO Something." !
 
Archlute;


I don't know, Ben. Maybe I am one of those prudes, but I have to say that I always wince when the old guys at my gym get out of the shower to stand naked in front of the mirror for about ten minutes brushing their teeth and shaving. I'm always thinking to myself at that point, "Dude, come on. It's not like we don't have free towels at this place."

Do you also wince at the young guys, or don't the younger do that too?
 
I'd start where Adam and Eve started (Gen 3). They knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings. (v.3).

They were afraid because they were naked; and they hid themselves. (v.10).

Also for Adam and his wife the LORD God made tunics of skin, and clothed them. (v.21)

God agrees with Adam--nakedness should be covered.

I will wait to hear the biblical arguments that teach nakedness is permissable for art, story telling, etc. It has been 3 pages though...
 
I'd start where Adam and Eve started (Gen 3). They knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings. (v.3).

They were afraid because they were naked; and they hid themselves. (v.10).

Also for Adam and his wife the LORD God made tunics of skin, and clothed them. (v.21)

God agrees with Adam--nakedness should be covered.

I will wait to hear the biblical arguments that teach nakedness is permissable for art, story telling, etc. It has been 3 pages though...

:amen::ditto:
 
Yes, Gen.3......But.....what specifically was and was not covered? ;)

Again, back to different cultures defining nakedness in different ways. It does not say exactly *what* body parts are covered. The third world tribal folks are *covered* in their society, not in ours. We are *covered* in our society, not in a middle eastern one.

I'm not really arguing a point, frankly there are things I'd rather NOT see! LOL! But, does the scripture define *nakedness* that clearly? Or are we to go to other passages dealing with thoughts, motives, behavior etc.?

I've seen fully clothed people who were *naked*.
 
I will wait to hear the biblical arguments that teach nakedness is permissable for art, story telling, etc. It has been 3 pages though...

I gave an argument from scripture in post 74 to which no-one responded so I assumed I'd won ;)
 
Archlute;


I don't know, Ben. Maybe I am one of those prudes, but I have to say that I always wince when the old guys at my gym get out of the shower to stand naked in front of the mirror for about ten minutes brushing their teeth and shaving. I'm always thinking to myself at that point, "Dude, come on. It's not like we don't have free towels at this place."

Do you also wince at the young guys, or don't the younger do that too?

I think your comment to be somewhat inappropriate in its inference, but this behavior actually seems to be confined to old men.
 
Archlute;


I don't know, Ben. Maybe I am one of those prudes, but I have to say that I always wince when the old guys at my gym get out of the shower to stand naked in front of the mirror for about ten minutes brushing their teeth and shaving. I'm always thinking to myself at that point, "Dude, come on. It's not like we don't have free towels at this place."

Do you also wince at the young guys, or don't the younger do that too?

I think your comment to be somewhat inappropriate in its inference, but this behavior actually seems to be confined to old men.

Yep, I always found that very odd.
 
I will wait to hear the biblical arguments that teach nakedness is permissable for art, story telling, etc. It has been 3 pages though...

I gave an argument from scripture in post 74 to which no-one responded so I assumed I'd won ;)

I just now read the post, thanks for the effort. However, I fail to see where you argued FROM Scripture. That is, where did you lay out what the Scripture TEACHES on the matter?

Like any other topic if one cannot say "The scripture teaches XYZ here and here and this is why it does" then we are left to mere preferences. And if this is true, then these conversations are like arguing "I think vanilla is better than chocolate" This may be an interesting conversation but no truth would be conveyed and no teaching has taken place.

If I were to assert "All nakedness is wrong and everything short of a burka is naked" yet I did not show FROM the scriptures where this is taught, my position should be rightly rejected.

-----Added 8/10/2009 at 12:29:39 EST-----


A couple good place to check for scriptural references:

WSC

Q. 70. Which is the seventh commandment?
A. The seventh commandment is, Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Q. 71. What is required in the seventh commandment?
A. The seventh commandment requireth the preservation of our own and our neighbor's chastity, in heart, speech and behavior.

Q. 72. What is forbidden in the seventh commandment?
A. The seventh commandment forbiddeth all unchaste thoughts, words and actions.​

WLC:

Q. 137. Which is the seventh commandment?
A. The seventh commandment is, Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Q. 138. What are the duties required in the seventh commandment?
A. The duties required in the seventh commandment are, chastity in body, mind, affections, words, and behavior; and the preservation of it in ourselves and others; watchfulness over the eyes and all the senses; temperance, keeping of chaste company, modesty in apparel; marriage by those that have not the gift of continency, conjugal love, and cohabitation; diligent labor in our callings; shunning all occasions of uncleanness, and resisting temptations thereunto.

Q. 139. What are the sins forbidden in the seventh commandment?
A. The sins forbidden in the seventh commandment, besides the neglect of the duties required, are, adultery, fornication, rape, incest, sodomy, and all unnatural lusts; all unclean imaginations, thoughts, purposes, and affections; all corrupt or filthy communications, or listening thereunto; wanton looks, impudent or light behavior, immodest apparel; prohibiting of lawful, and dispensing with unlawful marriages; allowing, tolerating, keeping of stews, and resorting to them; entangling vows of single life, undue delay of marriage; having more wives or husbands than one at the same time; unjust divorce, or desertion; idleness, gluttony, drunkenness, unchaste company; lascivious songs, books, pictures, dancings, stage plays; and all other provocations to, or acts of uncleanness, either in ourselves or others.​
 
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