New Calvinism

Discussion in 'Calvinism & The Doctrines of Grace' started by SolaSaint, Jun 18, 2012.

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  1. GulfCoast Presbyterian

    GulfCoast Presbyterian Puritan Board Junior

    I did not find the exact post that I was referencing from some months ago, but this is along the same tenor: ED YOUNG, JR. PLAYS PASTOR FASHION : Apprising Ministries

    While I agree that "we need to know when Pastors and theologians are heading off the cliff," I no longer take Silva as a very serious advisor on such issues. He cries wolf about anything and everything, often just reposting someone else's "wolf-cry." Simply look at the front page of that sight right now. He says re: Rick Warren "Basically sinfully ecumenical Southern Baptist pastor Rick Warren has been outdoing himself the past couple of days with some of his most curious tweets, to put it mildly." Warren has issues, and we are all sinners, but this is too broad a stroke to take seriously, without some specific reference to some specific "ecuminical" stance of Warren. This very BOARD is ecuminical, given the mix of paedo and credo baptists, presbyterians and congregationalists.
     
  2. Sviata Nich

    Sviata Nich Puritan Board Freshman

    In the same lecture Keller also talks about, advocates and reads from George Herbert, Richard Baxter, and Jonathan Edwards.

    The lecture essentially says that 1) Meditation is the gateway to real (as in deep) prayer life. 2) It must be deliberate and disciplined. 3) You can meditate on almost anything (i.e. a flower, or providential circumstances) but primarily, you need to meditate on the law of the Lord. 4) Meditation is to delight in what God has said over what the world has said.
     
  3. Philip

    Philip Puritan Board Graduate

    I was pleasantly surprised, actually, by some of the stuff I found when doing research on John of the Cross (long story). The Catholic mystical tradition actually has some helpful things: Thomas A Kempis's The Imitation of Christ, for instance, has been extremely helpful to me. Now maybe Keller is being overly optimistic about this stuff---but you should actually read the authors in question before making that assumption.
     
  4. SolaSaint

    SolaSaint Puritan Board Sophomore

    Mark,

    I think Rick Warren's middle name is Ecuminical. This isn't news to many?
     
  5. SolaSaint

    SolaSaint Puritan Board Sophomore

    I do agree with you about Lighthouse Trails, they do seem to go overboard on some issues, they seem to like the smoking gun method a lot. But I haven't seen that from Aprising Min yet, I'll keep reading.
     
  6. puritanpilgrim

    puritanpilgrim Puritan Board Junior

    There's a new calvinism...I want one.:p
     
  7. GulfCoast Presbyterian

    GulfCoast Presbyterian Puritan Board Junior

    I think that "Ecuminical" equals "sinful" without any explanation certainly should be news to many. That's the point. If some particular ecuminical stance taken by Warren, or anyone else, is "sinful" drop a scripture reference and primary source documents RIGHT THERE, or "discernment ministry" becomes "character assasination." I continue to think Apprising Ministries needs a healthy dose of 1 John in tone, which would in turn help with content.
     
  8. J. Dean

    J. Dean Puritan Board Junior

    Yeah, and we need to remember this. Just because a Catholic does something doesn't mean it's wrong. To be sure, Roman Catholics have doctrinal problems: the perversion of the gospel being chief among them. But to say one shouldn't do something "just because Catholics do it" is a bit juvenile and reactionary.

    I ran into this with the Baptist church I attended as a child. We didn't say The Lord's Prayer because "The Catholics did it." We didn't do the Apostles' Creed because "The Catholics did it." We didn't take communion more than once a year (Easter time) because to do it any more than that was "Catholic." We avoided the word "saint" like the plague because "Catholics used it." And on and on it went.

    I've read some of the stuff from this site, and unfortunately they fall into a rut that many discernment-focused ministries fall into: they become so anxious and vigilant to watch for error that they'll blow something out of proportion and scream "heresy!" when the charge in fact is unwarranted. While they do have a few good pieces, they've also got some (like this article) that smacks as a bit alarmist in some ways.

    This reminds me of a few websites that put out stuff like this which makes me roll my eyes. One site criticized the three gentlemen of the Great Awakening as leading the church away from the truth (yes, Wesley, Edwards, and Whitfield) through their "emotionalism." The article was absolutely ridiculous, and sounded like it was penned by a hyper-Calvinist. Another "discernment" ministry group that threw a fit about Pat Robertson because of the way his hand happened to be positioned in a photo, because his hand position looked remarkably like the super-secret position used in some shadow occult movement (Rather odd to use a super-secret hand position on the cover of a magazine). There are things to address with Pat Robertson, but to pull things like that out of thin air does more harm than good.


    You know, I was considering writing a piece about discernment ministries. This thread is making me consider it again.
     
  9. VictorBravo

    VictorBravo Administrator Staff Member

    What is this "Ecuminical" word? It's not in any of my dictionaries.

    In any event, it sounds pretty bad to me: probably something to do with spice extracts.
     
  10. Rufus

    Rufus Puritan Board Junior

    Al Mohler signed the Manhattan Declaration as well, would you throw him out too?
     
  11. GulfCoast Presbyterian

    GulfCoast Presbyterian Puritan Board Junior

    This is an up-to-the-minute example of my frusteration with that website. These are the just posted lyrics to the "Mark Driscol Song:"


    ****
    Blessed subtraction this church is mine!
    You’d better get yourself back into line!
    Don’t disagree here, don’t make a fuss,
    Or I will throw you under the bus!

    Chorus:This is my vision, this is my creed,
    Slaughtering sheep who have disagreed
    This is my mission, this is my creed,
    Making up dogma, indulging my greed.

    Blessed subtraction, empty your brain
    What’s in your wallets, Driscoll shall gain
    Bible discussions will soon be in vain
    As Driscoll hits metal – and runs over saints

    Grease in his hair, it stands in a point.
    Dressed like a biker in a beer joint.
    He cusses and gestures, his sermons can linger.
    If you don’t like him, he’ll give you the finger.

    Driscoll’s receiving, visions from God;
    Don’t you start hating, on your dumb blog;
    Blessed subtraction, bodies are stacked,
    Biblical preaching’s a thing of the past.

    Blessed subtraction, all is at rest
    According to Driscoll, he is the best
    Watching the big screen, that’s in his head
    Who needs the bible, by vision we’re led

    Chorus:This is my vision, this is my creed,
    Slaughtering sheep who have disagreed
    This is my mission, this is my creed,
    Making up dogma, indulging my greed.
    *********

    If this is "discernment," then we need a more "mature" discernment ministry. your mileage may vary.
     
  12. Zach

    Zach Puritan Board Junior

    While I am no fan of Pastor Driscoll that song is pretty over the top and uncalled for (in addition to being pretty hilarious...).
     
  13. Fogetaboutit

    Fogetaboutit Puritan Board Freshman

    As I said, even if they would have written anything that could be usefull I definitely would stay away from anything these people have written. Let's remember that these people are some of the worst heretics and persecutors of the true chruch known in history. They certainly do not share our faith and I think it would be presumptuous to claim we can read all of their writtings and be able to seperate truth from error. These people espeically Loyola were famous for decieving people by twisting the truth. Call me bigot if you want but I think it is ridicoulous to go to those people for any spriritual insights. Even if Aleister Crowley, Adolf Hitler or Helena Blavatsky could have written a few things that are true does not mean we should go to them on matter of faith and practice. These people are not believers therefore it wasn't the Holy Spirit enlighting their thinking. I will stick with the reformers and the puritans when it comes to spiritual meditation, I especially like Owen.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2012
  14. SolaSaint

    SolaSaint Puritan Board Sophomore

    I agree Etienne, I did some research on Loyola and he is way out there on spiritual matters, although he may be sincere, he is dead wrong and for these New Calvinists to try and resurrect their teachings is scary stuff.
     
  15. Philip

    Philip Puritan Board Graduate

    Godwins Law. Sorry, but Roman Catholicism (even Jesuitism) is not close to the level of heresy that these people have.

    In my humble opinion, some Catholic mystics (Bernard of Clairveaux, Francis of Assisi, Thomas A Kempis, John of the Cross) have been genuine believers. In spite of the Catholic Church? Absolutely. But believers nonetheless.

    I can't speak on Loyola as I haven't read him (though I may, eventually).
     
  16. KaphLamedh

    KaphLamedh Puritan Board Freshman

    Has John Piper gone liberal? Somehow he has been lately disappointment to me. Other "new wave" of calvinism has been Paul Washer, Charles Leiter, Kevin Williams. Paul Washer said to be five point spurgeonist and that calvinism is not an issue. Interesting.
     
  17. Fogetaboutit

    Fogetaboutit Puritan Board Freshman

    That is a matter of opinion I would actually say that Jesuitism is worst since it is more subtle and deceptive and have the specific objective to destroy protestanism and bring all under the authority of the Pope, Crowley and Blavatsky were open about their faith and easier to discern.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2012
  18. Philip

    Philip Puritan Board Graduate

    Nevertheless, equating it with occultism and out-and-out paganism is unfair and lacks perspective. Further, reading any author with this kind of hermaneutic of suspicion means that you will end up failing to understand them at all.
     
  19. Rufus

    Rufus Puritan Board Junior

    Calvin himself said that Bernard of Clairveaux was his second largest influence on Grace after Augustine.
     
  20. Supersillymanable

    Supersillymanable Puritan Board Freshman

    I find often people are much quicker to throw the baby and the bath water out at the same time. Keller doesn't preach a different Gospel. Keller, generally is very doctrinally sound as far as I was aware. My understanding was that doctrinally, he was pretty close to someone say, Piper. He's definitely Soteriologically reformed, passionate about it also. I'm also unaware that Keller had women pastors and preachers. In fact, I was under the impression he was anti that as well as women exercising teaching authority. I'm also certian he does not advocate Catholic mysticism, as pointed out earlier.

    I feel some people jump to conclusions about Keller, as well as others way too quickly, as well as assuming what he believes without actually hearing him espouse it. Also, what is the objection about the Manhattan Dec? I don't know much about it, but I was sure it declared Homosexuality, abortion etc. as wrong and contrary to the Gospel? Is there something I don't know about this document?
     
  21. Supersillymanable

    Supersillymanable Puritan Board Freshman

    Piper? Gone Liberal? What makes you ask that...? He's the last person I'd think would go Liberal...

    Also, what is the context of Paul Washer's comment? Was he referring to be saved? If so, he's completely correct. Washer I generally like. Though, I haven't heard loads from him.
     
  22. Fogetaboutit

    Fogetaboutit Puritan Board Freshman

    I think you should research Jesuitism and it's deeds for the past few hundreds of years, I would also recommend you lookup what the reformers and the puritans had to say about them, Charles Spurgeons did not stutter when he rebuked them openly same goes for Calvin and many others. Occultism and open-paganism is less of a treath to true christianity since it is easily discerned. Roman Catholicism and especially Jesuitism (in its many forms) is trying to make the same occultic and pagan principles acceptable by masquarading them in christian terminology.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2012
  23. Fogetaboutit

    Fogetaboutit Puritan Board Freshman

    Comptemplative meditation (as example Loyola's Spiritual Exercises) is not different than hindu (and other pagan) meditations. Creating a picture of God in your mind and meditating on it is called idolatry.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2012
  24. Bill The Baptist

    Bill The Baptist Puritan Board Graduate

    Actually that comment came from a sermon he gave and what he said was that Calvinism wasn't the issue, regeneration was the issue. What he was referring to were all these churches and pastors who have people pray a prayer and then tell them that they are absolutely saved because of it despite any evidence of regeneration in their life. He simply meant that he could relate to Arminians like Ravenhill and Tozer because they did preach repentance and regeneration, even though they weren't Calvinist.
     
  25. Jack K

    Jack K Puritan Board Professor

    The problem with saying this here is we have NO EVIDENCE that the guys accused in the article in the OP have ever advocated such a thing. All we have is: They speak at the same conferences with guys who have occasionally said some good things about other guys who have at times advocated something similar.

    Follow that kind of reasoning and I'm guilty, too.
     
  26. Philip

    Philip Puritan Board Graduate

    True, you should meditate on the image of God given to us in Jesus Christ.

    Except that one can be a Roman Catholic and be saved in spite of it. The same cannot be said for occultism and paganism.
     
  27. Fogetaboutit

    Fogetaboutit Puritan Board Freshman


    I understand what you are trying to say, if you quote somebody who is unorthodox on certain point but sound on others I could understand that you quote them in regards to where they are sound. This is another thing when dealing with Loyola, especially on meditative practices. I don't know enough about the others ones he quoted to comment on them, but Loyola I do know enough about him to keep away from him and certainly not recommend him to a fellow christian. Keller specifically noted that those people wrote their material as part of the Counter Reformation so which side are we on here?
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2012
  28. Fogetaboutit

    Fogetaboutit Puritan Board Freshman

    One cannot be saved and hold to Roman Catholic heretical doctrines.
     
  29. Fogetaboutit

    Fogetaboutit Puritan Board Freshman

    Yes but not an image of Christ created in your mind, that would also be idolatry, only the image of Christ given to us in scriptures, which is contrary to comtemplative meditation since they themself admit to meditate on God without the use of scriptures.
     
  30. Jack K

    Jack K Puritan Board Professor

    We're on the side of truth, I hope.

    Do you have any evidence that any of the guys attacked in that post oppose the Reformation? NO, because that isn't true.
    Do you have any evidence that any of them any of them advocate creating a picture of God in your mind and meditating on it? NO again. It isn't true, either.

    Yet by speaking the way you do, you create the impression that these accusations might be true or, at least, that it's good for us to be suspicious.

    The reason we take "sides" in the Reformation is because truth matters. The Reformation stands for truth. We lose that when we start fudging on the truth in order to throw mud at people we think have gotten too cozy with the wrong side. Maybe they have. But if we start stretching the truth to discredit them, we lose all we stand for.
     
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