Mystery babylon

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(Rev 17:7 KJV) And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

(Rev 17:18 KJV) And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

(Rev 11:8 KJV) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

(Rev 14:8 KJV) And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

(Rev 16:19 KJV) And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

(Rev 18:10 KJV) Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

(Rev 18:16 KJV) And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

(Ezek 16:10-25) "I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk. {11} I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck. {12} And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head. {13} Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom. {14} And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through My Comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GOD. {15} But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was. {16} And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with divers colours, and playedst the harlot thereupon: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so. {17} Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of My gold and of My silver, which I had given thee, and madest to thyself images of men, and didst commit whoredom with them, {18} And tookest thy broidered garments, and coveredst them: and thou hast set Mine oil and Mine incense before them. {19} My meat also which I gave thee, fine flour, and oil, and honey, wherewith I fed thee, thou hast even set it before them for a sweet savour: and thus it was, saith the Lord GOD. {20} Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto Me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter, {21} That ]hou hast slain My children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them? {22} And in all thine abominations and thy whoredoms thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, when thou wast naked and bare, and wast polluted in thy blood. {23} And it came to pass after all thy wickedness, (woe, woe unto thee! saith the Lord GOD); {24} That thou hast also built unto thee an eminent place, and hast made thee an high place in every street. {25} Thou hast built thy high place at every head of the way, and hast made thy beauty to be abhorred, and hast opened thy feet to every one that passed by, and multiplied thy whoredoms."

(Rev 17:1-6) "And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will show unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: {2} With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. {3} So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. {4} And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: {5} And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. {6} And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration."


Note: ONLY the ancient city of Jerusalem is accused of being responsible for the blood of the saints.

(Acts 7:52) "Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which showed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:"

(Mat 23:31) "Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets."

(Mat 23:37) "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

(Luke 11:47-51) "Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. {48} Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres. {49} Therefore also said the Wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: {50} That the blood of ALL the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of THIS generation; {51} From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, whom ye slew between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of THIS generation."

(Rom 11:3) "Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life."

(1 Th 2:15-16) "Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: {16} Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost."

(Rev 18:18-19 KJV) And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! {19} And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

(Mat 23:38) "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." ...{24:3} "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?"

(Rev 17:16 KJV) And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

(Rev 18:21 KJV) And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

(Rev 21:10 KJV) And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the HOLY Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God...


[Edited on 1-27-2005 by VERITAS]
 
Colleen: The papacy is historicism's answer.

Cheri: So, one preteristic answer is Jerusalem. As a side note, I don't think that anyone disagree that Rome persecuted Christians too. I am sure some people see Rome as the answer.
 
Did "I" give you a preteristic answer? Huh! And here I thought I was letting the Scripture speak for itself...

Ultimately there is only one answer not how various camps "see the answer" and the angel says that he will tell John the mystery. So, if the mystery is revealed within the Text, then it is simply a matter of diligently looking AT THE TEXT and the Text no where says that Rome is a "mystery" or "a great whore" or like "Babylon the Great". As DeMar said, "Rome could not fornicate against God for only Israel was God's wife."

Rome is the beast. Rome had 7 kings/emporers of which 5 were fallen. Rome also had 10 kings (or 10 tin-horn dictators in the 10 provinces). But I know, "yeah, yeah," you're looking for the various INTERPRETATIONS...

Maybe we could do a comparison chart afterwards and see whose view is the most far-fetched?
:bigsmile:

[Edited on 1-27-2005 by VERITAS]
 
Originally posted by VERITAS
Did "I" give you a preteristic answer? Huh! And here I thought I was letting the Scripture speak for itself...

Ultimately there is only one answer not how various camps "see the answer" and the angel says that he will tell John the mystery. So, if the mystery is revealed within the Text, then it is simply a matter of diligently looking AT THE TEXT and the Text no where says that Rome is a "mystery" or "a great whore" or like "Babylon the Great". As DeMar said, "Rome could not fornicate against God for only Israel was God's wife."

But I know, "yeah, yeah," you're looking for the various INTERPRETATIONS...


[Edited on 1-27-2005 by VERITAS]


Why are you so grouchy?

Do you really think you didn't interpret? Not even with "BTW, I was arguing on another board that the Church IS the new Israel when suddenly I had an epiphany: Israel wasn't Jacob's REAL name, it was a SYMBOLIC name that he was given by God and that by which his offspring became IDENTIFIED with him and thus with God."

openairboy
 
Was Jerusalem Mystery Babylon?


Would John have known this woman???

Is she the United Nations??? Rome??? Apostate Christianity??? How do the Scriptures describe her? And does her description fit that of any other in the Bible?

A Harlot

Rev 17:5
. . . and upon her forehead a name was written, a mystery, “BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Isaiah 1:21
See how the faithful city [Jerusalem] has become a harlot!

Jeremiah 3:6-10
"Have you seen what faithless Israel has done? She has gone up on every high hill and under every spreading tree and has committed adultery there. I thought that after she had done all this she would return to me but she did not, and her unfaithful sister Judah saw it. I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery. Because Israel’s immorality mattered so little to her, she defiled the land and committed adultery with stone and wood. In spite of all this, her unfaithful sister Judah did not return to me with all her heart, but only in pretense," declares the LORD.



Whose "Lovers" Will Strip Her and Ruin Her

Rev 17:16
The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

Ezekiel 16:37-39
therefore I am going to gather all your [Israel's] lovers, with whom you found pleasure, those you loved as well as those you hated. I will gather them against you from all around and will strip you in front of them, and they will see all your nakedness. I will sentence you to the punishment of women who commit adultery and who shed blood; I will bring upon you the blood vengeance of my wrath and jealous anger. Then I will hand you over to your lovers, and they will tear down your mounds and destroy your lofty shrines. They will strip you of your clothes and take your fine jewelry and leave you naked and bare.



Dressed in Purple and Scarlet and Gold

Rev 17:4 & Rev 18:15
The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries...
'Woe! Woe, O great city, dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet, and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!

Exodus 28:1-43
They are to make these sacred garments for your brother Aaron and his sons, so they may serve me as priests. Have them use gold, and blue, purple and scarlet yarn, and fine linen. "Make the ephod of gold, and of blue, purple and scarlet yarn, and of finely twisted linen—the work of a skilled craftsman.

Jeremiah 4:30-31
What are you doing, O devastated one? Why dress yourself in scarlet and put on jewels of gold?
Why shade your eyes with paint? You adorn yourself in vain. Your lovers despise you; they seek your life. I hear a cry as of a woman in labor, a groan as of one bearing her first child - the cry of the Daughter of Zion...



A Great City Who Says She is No Widow

Rev 17:18 & Rev 18:7-8
The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth." In her heart she boasts, ‘I sit as queen; I am not a widow, and I will never mourn.’ Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her: death, mourning and famine. She will be consumed by fire, for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.

Rev 11:8
And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

Lamentations 1:1
How deserted lies the city, once so full of people! How like a widow is she, who once was great among the nations! She who was queen among the provinces has now become a slave.



Drunk With the Blood of the Saints

Rev 17:6 & Rev 18:20&24
I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus... In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints, and of all who have been killed on the earth."
Rejoice over her, O heaven! Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets!
God has judged her for the way she treated you.’"

Matthew 23:35
And so upon you [Jerusalem] will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth,

Luke 11:50-51
Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

1 Thes 2:14-15
". . . the Jews. Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men."



Desolations

Rev 18:23
"And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived".

Matt 23:38
"Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

Matthew 21:43
"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

Matthew 21:19
"And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, let no fruit grow on thee henceforward forever. And presently the fig tree withered away."

Conclusion

We must use the Bible to interpret the Bible biblically. . . not the political landscape of our world to try to expose Mystery Babylon. We are not to use the "signs of the times", the newspaper, or our favorite prophecy teachers to interpret Bible prophecy.

Jerusalem is only one according to Jesus that is responsible for all of the deaths of all the prophets and all of the apostles and all of the saints. Jesus said God's vengeance would come against that people, in that generation. They would be judged for spilling all the righteous blood shed on earth. In fact, if all the blood of all the prophets was against them (and the office of prophet no longer exists) then the Babylonian Whore of Revelation 18 no longer exists. Why did this have to happen???

"In that He says, A new [covenant], he has made the first [the Old Covenant] old. . . and is ready to vanish away"
Heb 8:13

The Old Covenant System began to vanish away with the sacrifice of Christ and was completely destroyed when Jesus came (in judgment) to destroy the temple as he promised. Because of this, we are now in the Kingdom of God's dear Son . . . never to be shaken or removed (Hebrews 12:28; Col 1:13) ! ! !

© Doug Beaumont 2002

TEXT MENU
 
Originally posted by openairboy
[Veritas] Why are you so grouchy?

Do you really think you didn't interpret? Not even with "BTW, I was arguing on another board that the Church IS the new Israel when suddenly I had an epiphany: Israel wasn't Jacob's REAL name, it was a SYMBOLIC name that he was given by God and that by which his offspring became IDENTIFIED with him and thus with God."

openairboy

Well, yeah, THAT was interpretation. I was talking about the post that had nothing but scripture verses. And I'm not being grouchy, I'm just being me. For instance, it would be just as silly if you knew what a piece of paper was and then asked for various opinions on what a piece of paper is... (unless you're writing a book that contrasts truth with opinion).
 
Originally posted by Scott
How did Jerusalem rule over the nations of the earth?

Hey Scott,

She was the only kingdom with which the Lord of the Universe was in covenant. She was to rule by example, through righteousness, and ultimately inherit (i.e. expand her territory to include) the whole earth. Of course, we know that she failed, but all the nations on the earth knew of her covenant/claim to God. Remember all of the passages that say that when she disobeys and God strips her of all her glory that the nations will pass by and say it was because she forsook the Lord her God?


(Amos 3:2) "You ONLY have I known of all the families of the earth..."

(Deu 26:18-19) "And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people, as he hath promised thee, and that thou shouldest keep all his commandments; {19} And to make thee high above all nations which he hath made, in praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be an holy people unto the LORD thy God, as he hath spoken."

(Deu 28:1) "And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:"

(Deu 29:24-28) "Even all nations shall say, Wherefore hath the LORD done thus unto this land? what meaneth the heat of this great anger? {25} Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt: {26} For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them: {27} And the anger of the LORD was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book: {28} And the LORD rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day."

(2 Chr 7:19-22) "But if ye turn away, and forsake my statutes and my commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them; {20} Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it to be a proverb and a byword among all nations. {21} And this house, which is high, shall be an astonishment to every one that passeth by it; so that he shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and unto this house? {22} And it shall be answered, Because they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath he brought all this evil upon them."

(Lam 2:15) "All that pass by clap their hands at thee; they hiss and wag their head at the daughter of Jerusalem, saying, Is this the city that men call The perfection of beauty, The joy of the whole earth?"

(Rom 2:24) "For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written."


Those above are just a sampling. Mention could also be made of the verses that talk about the "whole world" being awed at David (1 Chron 14:17), Solomon, Hezekiah (2 Chron 32:23), etc. And last, but certainly not least, is the fact that Israel was the instrument through whom the Messiah/Saviour would/did come. She "ruled" by right of her relationship to God, just as Christ (and by extension his people) now reigns over the whole earth. It is from God's perspective, not necessarily from man's...

P.S. I left out the mighty works that God did that proved to the nations that He was the ONLY God - e.g. Pharaoh/Egypt; Nebuchadnezzar/Babylon, etc. The language usually goes "then [the heathen] will know that I am the Lord". As God was the Ruler over Israel, and no one could touch her except by His Permission, it follows that she was His co-regent on earth. Those who sat upon the throne of Israel were merely ruling FOR God over His people.


[Edited on 1-31-2005 by VERITAS]
 
Originally posted by turmeric
The Mother of Harlots? Jerusalem? A harlot, surely, but the Mother of Harlots?

(Rev 17:5-7) "And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. {6} And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration. {7} And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns."

(Ezek 5:5-9) ""This is what the Sovereign LORD says: This is Jerusalem, which I have set in the center of the nations, with countries all around her. {6} Yet in her wickedness she has rebelled against My Laws and Decrees
MORE THAN THE NATIONS AND COUNTRIES AROUND HER. She has rejected My Laws and has not followed My Decrees. {7} "Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: You have been MORE UNRULY THAN THE NATIONS AROUND YOU and have not followed My Decrees or kept My Laws. You have not even conformed to the standards of the nations around you. {8} "Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself am against you, Jerusalem, and I will inflict punishment on you in the sight of the nations. {9} Because of all your detestable idols, I will do to you what I have never done before and will never do again."

What does it mean to be a harlot in the Bible?

What does it mean by using the symbol of a "mother"? Or to say it another way, what is the primary function of a woman who is known as a mother?

P.S. Hank Hannegraaf made an astute observation tonight when he said that people tend to look at The Revelation for new information instead of a recapitulation of what's been said previously in the other 65 books of the Bible...


[Edited on 2-1-2005 by VERITAS]
 
oh it was jerusalem, that is the mystery that God's city had become babylon.
the romans were persecuting christians up until 65 ad at the jews request because they had no authority to execute. the woman is jerusalem and the beast she rides on is rome. Beast of the land is jerusalem, beast from the sea is rome. the beast 666 is nero who represents rome, the antichrist is caiaphas who represents jerusalem.
Why is this so hard to understand? it seems pretty clear to me.
 
Is there any record of anyone belieiving it was Jerusalem until fairly recent history?
 
Jonathan said:
oh it was jerusalem, that is the mystery that God's city had become babylon.
the romans were persecuting christians up until 65 ad at the jews request because they had no authority to execute. the woman is jerusalem and the beast she rides on is rome. Beast of the land is jerusalem, beast from the sea is rome. the beast 666 is nero who represents rome, the antichrist is caiaphas who represents jerusalem.
Why is this so hard to understand? it seems pretty clear to me.

Could you show me someplace where someone I can trust shows how they came to this conclusion?

Scot said:
s there any record of anyone belieiving it was Jerusalem until fairly recent history?

I would like to know this also
 
Originally posted by Scott
Is there any record of anyone belieiving it was Jerusalem until fairly recent history?

(Luke 16:29-31) "Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. {30} And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, then they will [believe]. {31} And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded..."
 
Perhaps being on the housetops and not coming down to get one's clothes will be the future state of housing in the world when we give up air-conditioning for the sake of global warming? That way they can flee to the mountains via the housetops... I suppose that would exclude the U.S., most third-world nations, South America, Africa, Indonesia. Hey, maybe it will happen in China!? Her people are pretty packed together...
 
And I guess it is pretty far-fetched to believe that the people of God under the Old Covenant could be accused of enough spiritual harlotry to warrant being "THE Great Harlot". I mean after all what was their big crime? All they did was trump up some charges against the Messiah, the God of Israel, and call for His execution. They said "we have no king but Caesar...when God Himself was your King"... They said "His Blood be upon us and our children" but they didn't really mean that. They really meant that it should be upon Rome. In fact, it shouldn't be upon the ancient Rome of the Caesars, but upon the modern Rome of the Catholic church and the papacy!
 
Interesting!I never thought about that before.Just don`t let the Dispensationalists get a hold of this.:p

[Edited on 2-1-2005 by Average Joey]
 
Originally posted by Scott
Is there any record of anyone belieiving it was Jerusalem until fairly recent history?

Cheri said:
(Luke 16:29-31) "Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. {30} And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, then they will [believe]. {31} And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded..."

I will take that as a "no."

In terms of church history, the only discussion I have heard of the origins of preterism is that the system was first developed and promoted to Protestants by Jesuits as part of the counter-Reformation to undermine the then-universal Protestant eschatology of historicism. Allegedly, nobody before the 16th/17th century accepted preteristic analysis of Revelation. I have not seen an responses in terms of Revelation. I have not looked at the source material myself and am just offering this as something of interest.
 
Cheri,

Great posts...I love the adherence to Scripture rather than philosophy and presupposition.

Dustin...
 
Dustin: Everyone thinks their view is the most scriptural. See this for a biblical defense of historicism:
http://www.historicist.com

In any event, sometimes it helps to step back and look at the history interpretations to get some perspective. If preterism was always unknown to the church and its first advent arrived as a Jesuit fraud, that should at least give one cause to consider whether he is interpreting this difficult book rightly.
 
Originally posted by Scott
Is there any record of anyone belieiving it was Jerusalem until fairly recent history?

...

I will take that as a "no."

In terms of church history, the only discussion I have heard of the origins of preterism is that the system was first developed and promoted to Protestants by Jesuits as part of the counter-Reformation to undermine the then-universal Protestant eschatology of historicism. Allegedly, nobody before the 16th/17th century accepted preteristic analysis of Revelation. I have not seen an responses in terms of Revelation. I have not looked at the source material myself and am just offering this as something of interest.

No, I wouldn't take my response as a "no," but rather as a "what difference would it make?" If we let the Bible interpret the Bible, and all the church fathers were fallible men "with like passions" just like we are (i.e. uninspired, non-apostles), then why should their perspective have any more bearing or be considered more valid than ours? Would you reject the doctrine of justification by faith alone if it was unknown prior to the insight of Luther in the 1500s?

But I'll quote F.W. Farrar nonetheless:


"all the earliest Christian writers on the Apocalypse, from Irenaeus down to Victorious of Pettau and Commodian in the fourth, and Andreas in the fifth, and St. Beatus in the eighth century, connect Nero, or some Roman emperor, with the Apocalyptic Beast ." (Early Days of Christianity, p.541)

"But, apart from St. John's own words, it cannot be conceded that the central conception of the Præterist exegesis is a mere novelty of the 17th century. On the contrary, we can trace from very early days the application of various visions to the early emperors of Pagan Rome. ...Later on, I shall furnish abundant evidence that a tradition of the ancient Church identified Nero with the Antichrist, and expected his literal return, just as the Jews expected the literal return of the Prophet Elijah. St. Victorinus (about A.D.303) counts the five dead emperors from Galba, and supposes that, after Nerva, the Beast (whom he identifies with Nero) will be recalled to life. ["Bestia de septem est quoniam ante ipsos reges Nero regnavit."] St. Augustine mentions a similar opinion. [De Civ. Dei, xx.19] ... Bishop Andreas, in the fifth century, applies Rev. vi.12 to the siege of Jerusalem, and considers that Antichrist will be "as a king of the Romans."

"Epiphanius says that St. John was banished in the reign of Claudius, and the earliest Apocalyptic commentators, as well as the Syriac and Theophylact, all place the writing of the Apocalypse in the reign of Nero. To these must be added the author of the "Life of Timotheus," of which extracts are preserved by Photius. Clemens of Alexandria and Origen only say that "John was banished by the tyrant," and this on Christian lips may mean Nero much more naturally than Domitian - See Epiphan. Haer. li 23 and 33 ; Andreas on Rev. vi. 12 ; Arethas on Rev. vii. 1-8 ; Syriac MS. No. 18 ; Theophylact. Comment. in Joann."
 
"No, I wouldn't take my response as a "no," but rather as a "what difference would it make?"

It matters because the Church is the pillar and ground of truth.
 
The Spiritual Church, in a sense. The physical church we have seen run into fallibilities all the time as it is made up of men. Scripture then is truely what we have to start with and compare everything with. Even the LBC and WCF have to be compared against scripture.
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Colleen: The visible church (i.e. the organization) is the pillar and ground of truth. Note that the passage (1 Tim. 3:15) is in the context of a series of exhortations about how Timothy is to run the affairs of the visible church, including such things as electing officers to the church. We don't elect officers to the invisible church.

1 Timothy is called a "pastoral epistle." Its primary purpose is one officer of the visible church (Paul) instructing another officer of the visible church (Timothy) in the pastoral duties of an officer.

BTW, I am not saying that the church is infallible. Neither are parents and yet Proverbs and elsewhere istructs us to hold fast to our parents' teaching.

The Church is Christ's Bride. I want to know what the Bride has to say on interpretive issues.

[Edited on 2-2-2005 by Scott]
 
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