arapahoepark
Puritan Board Professor
How do you argue with someone who dislikes your church's music because it is not as upbeat as other churches? They argue the music is needed to really get you in the mood (I have family arguing this).
Music as reason not to go
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Romans922
Puritan Board Professor
I say that there shouldn't be any instruments at all, according to God's command and Gospel. Then I say we should only sing Psalms according to God's command and Gospel. So that instead of imposing on God your own worship and how you want to worship, God demands our worship according to how He wants to be worshipped. If we do what He commands then He will teach us and put us in the proper (righteous, holy, good, true) mood that we ought to be in according to His righteous will. Then if there is still needed what man says 'to get into the mood' then I would begin questioning whether this or that one is in Christ. What an audacious thing, how could you not be in the mood to worship the Lord? Jesus died for your sins, did He not? Is He not risen, Is He not seated on the throne? He is King of kings and rules over all. How are you not in the mood?
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
Do the family in question claim to be Reformed? If so, point out that they have no biblical nor confessional reason to leave a church that professes the true religion, preaches the gospel and administers the Lord's ordinances more or less purely simply because they have a preference concerning music.
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
Leaving aside issues concerning exclusive psalmody and instrumental music, the emphasis that modern evangelicals place on singing and music is completely ludicrous. People are more concerned with music than they are with hearing the gospel preached or having the sacraments administered. Their emphasis is neither that of the Bible nor the Reformed confessions.
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I just now read this out of Calvin's The Necessity of Reforming the Church. He is speaking of the simplicity of Christian worship as opposed to the popish ceremonies. Nevertheless, I think some application can be made here.
"I am not unaware of how difficult it is to persuade the world that God rejects and even abominates everything relates to his worship that is devised by human reason. The delusion on this head is owing to several causes: 'Every one thinks highly of his own,' as the old proverb expresses it. Hence the offspring of our own brain delights us, and besides, as Paul admits, this fictitious worship often presents some show of wisdom [Col. 2:23]. Then, as it has for thr most part an external splendor which pleases the eye, it is more agreeable to our carnal nature, than that which alone God requires and approves, but which is less obstentatious."
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
I reread that book recently as part of volume 1 of The Tracts and Letters of John Calvin. It is a great but sadly neglected work.
Ed Walsh
Puritan Board Senior
I think that some charismatic churches, certainly the AG church I belonged to, base much of their religion on feelings or emotions—thinking, wrongfully, that their feelings are the presence of the Holy Spirit.
BTW - I believe in the actual presence or filling of the Holy Spirit as real and an experience one can know they have had.
I gave a "Reformation 101" presentation at my [now former] church two years ago. I said, "If there's one book you read about the Reformation, let this be it."
I'd love to see a nicely bound copy, like those little leatherbound books by Banner of Truth. It would be great to give out.
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Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
This is true; they do not understand the fulled orb worship God commands. They believe that worship is just the singing and hearing of sultry tunes that are generally written by the creature. If they are not thrown into an emotional experience, it is worship that is lacking.
timfost
Puritan Board Senior
Hi Trent,
Speaking as a non-EP and the church pianist, I have a few thoughts.
1. The idea of setting the mood seems to stem from the idea that it is the church's job to make my heart right before God just as it's an advertiser's job to make me want their product. Corporate worship is coming together to worship God. Receiving something from God is not the primary focus, though we are fed in the process. Worship is not about what I can get from God but offering the praise due His name. This should be our desire!
2. Preparation for worship is not something that we should do five minutes before the worship service. The entirety of our life should prepare, drive and motivate us to worship. After six days of labor, do we need to "get in the mood" to rest? I don't think that is our mindset.
3. Our singing does not need to be drab. As in everything we are to give our best to God. Whether we are convicted that our praises are a cappella, Psalms or something more along the lines of my own convictions, we offer them to God because it's what He is pleased with. If the "upbeatness" of the music is necessary to get me in the mood to worship, what kind of a loyal subject am I to my King?
Not knowing your situation and family, I can't speak exactly to the issue, but I know well that we too often treat church in our society similarly to a concert or to retail. It is not. It is coming before God's throne in reverence, humility and awe, to rest in Him and worship Him because He is our Lord, our Savior and our Friend.
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StephenMartyr
Puritan Board Freshman
I'm sorry but I don't mean to get into an argument here and derail the OP but I'd like to say something about this. You want to "sing the Psalms" but no instruments? How do you explain then Psalm 150? How do you sing Psalm 150 without instruments holding God doesn't want instruments playing while you sing it?
Just had to ask that sorry!
As for the OP, is the "upbeatness" of the music the determining factor of where you go to church? What's the standard for it? My church may not have as upbeat of music as yours but what's the standard? Does upbeat music "make" the church? Is it what you go by as you look for a church to go to? Is it more important than doctrine taught there?
Those are questions I could ask.
Music is the last important thing, but still important. What's taught at the church is the most important thing.
As for mood, read scripture while you wait for the service to start. Read a Psalm or a few proverbs.
Post a link to a thread or article for the arguments, or start yet a new thread; but a discussion of this will derail this thread and will have to be moved to the forum for acapella psalmody.
Ed Walsh
Puritan Board Senior
I think it is important to preface this by letting you all know that I was the "AMEN" to your post.
But I think I am safe in saying that a real "spiritual event" always leads to "an emotional rise." And sometimes to such a rise that it is an actual filling of the Holy Spirit causing us to experience emotion and affection, (as per J. Edwards) on a higher level than is possible for unaided man. It is called in Scripture a "joy unspeakable," which is "full of glory." This class of joy is beyond words and full to the brim of unearthly, otherworldly worship and praise to the exquisitely wonderful, adorable, and radiantly beautiful Triune God. This experience should be sought by and according to Dr. Martin Lloyd Jones and many others before him, the birthright of every genuine child of God—a reality that is safeguarded from deception, that cannot be denied, and no small part of coming to the full assurance of salvation. It is as close as you will get to heaven on earth. The Apostle Paul, on at least one occasion, was not even sure he was still on earth. But I must stop for words fail me even now.
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Jo_Was
Puritan Board Freshman
It is like the bride approaching her groom on their wedding day, in full splendor, with all the pomp and circumstance (dress, flowers, decor, visitors), walking down the aisle and then, just before arriving, she takes a seat in one of the front pews, waits for the groom to say his vows and express his love to her, without actually meeting him at the front and reciprocating her love publicly in front of all these witnesses because "You've got to get me in the mood first." Has there not already been a prelude leading up to this marvelous day? Has she not already experienced him time and time again express his love toward her? Has she not already been made aware of his affections? Has she not already been looking forward to this day for so long?
Public, corporate worship is not about us. It is a public declaration of our praise to God, and a recognition of our unity in Christ. It is for the building up and edification of the body. We have 6 days to "get us in the mood" for the 7th day of a holy rest in which we dwell with God in his temple, on his holy mountain, in his presence. What "gets us in the mood" is knowing that we are a redeemed people, that he has delivered us, that he has cared for us, that he has providentially guided us in love, and the Lord's Day (HIS day), is the day where we get to express and "renew" our vows with him. As such, we do indeed receive the spiritual blessings of communing with him and meditating on his work, but it's not because of any work on our part: it's the work of the Spirit.
Every Lord's Day is a foretaste of that future consummation. The more fully we understand the identity of the church as a people united to Christ, the more fully we can align our picture of how we "practice church" here on earth in expectation of that future wedding.
One way, therefore, to discuss these topics of emotionalism is really to reexamine the doctrine of the church...and what the church actually is. A good start is that it is not a place, but a people, called apart, and that it is in service for God's glory, and to one another.
Our individualistic, American culture is especially prone to underplaying, or simply being ignorant of, the historic doctrines regarding the church.
What particular mood is required to worship God? If it is an upbeat mode, does that exclude the depressed, the serious, the morose from participating in genuine worship? Is God only the God of the chipper and perky, and not also of the sour and sardonic?
It sounds like your family member is concerned to offer God only one aspect of their emotional life, instead of the whole range of what they experience. That basically compartmentalizes life into two parts; the party face we get hyped up for that we show him, and then the more level baseline. I would reassure them that God asks for the baseline, not just the peaks.
It sounds like your family member is concerned to offer God only one aspect of their emotional life, instead of the whole range of what they experience. That basically compartmentalizes life into two parts; the party face we get hyped up for that we show him, and then the more level baseline. I would reassure them that God asks for the baseline, not just the peaks.
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Poimen
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I would first ask if they really want a sincere discussion about the matter since the way you have communicated it here indicates that they probably wouldn't listen to any well-reasoned argument.
If they agreed, I would ask them if biblical worship is so subjective considering that you (and others) do not need such music to get them in the mood -not to mention the entire apostolic church. Secondly, I would labour to show from the scriptures that "getting in the mood" or, as it should be called, preparation for worship (in both covenants) cannot be accomplished with merely externals aids.
If they were reasonable and listening well up to this point I would then point them to the regulative principle of worship.
I think that music style of worship is a preference and conviction, so go where you feel that glorifies
God and allows you bless and worship Him.
JimmyH
Puritan Board Senior
I have always by choice gone to churches that sing from hymnals, and either have a piano/organ, or the same via computer generated. As far as these congregations that have electric guitars, and a band, loud music and screens where the congregation reads the lyrics ... I would be hard pressed to attend such a church. I had to go to one such on a Lord's Day where they also had a few singers on stage and their voices were miked so loudly that a third of the congregation didn't sing, and those that did couldn't be heard above the din. Give me that old time religion.
Edward
Puritanboard Commissioner
We lose our place in the discussion when it becomes a question of style. It doesn't really matter if the tune was written in 1980 or 1720. What matters is its purpose in worship. Much of the modern church has no idea how badly our view of worship was distorted by Charles Finney et al and the emphasis on individual conversion as opposed to a covenant body bringing homage to a holy God.
arapahoepark
Puritan Board Professor
While I run the soundboard and lyrics on the screen (though probably not to the capacity you are thinking of), even that is too soft or much of a downer (not uppity up so to speak) these people, most of whom want this 'ol time religion.'
BottleOfTears
Puritan Board Freshman
Exactly. The deadly underbelly of taking 'heightened emotional state' to equal 'the Holy Spirit's presence' is that not only are you in danger of seeking the emotion over anything else, but that you will not feel excited and happy all the time.
I can tell you from personal experience, this is a crushing blow to anyone who comes into church on Sunday tired of their week and depressed or upset. There's nothing wrong with having emotions flow from faith and a solid foundation of Christ, but if you flip that and base your assurance on emotion, which can so easily happen, when you feel terrible (which you will at some point) you will lose all assurance and hope.
When all the happiness and hype have died away you need to be left with Christ. That's what so many people need when they come into church. To be taken away from themselves and pointed to Christ. Not to be told "Feel happy now". It's painful and alienating, it makes it seem like the rest of the church is happy and holy and you are all alone. Instead we should sing of our pain together.
It very much fits in with the Charismatic (and even general evangelical) tendency to create two levels of Christians: the super spiritual ones, and the rest of us losers. It's great that they talk about the gospel, but if you are told every week "try harder and maybe you'll (speak in tongues/have a breakthrough/become sinless/feel on fire for God/fill in the blank). Spiritual gifts are just the obvious target here, but it can be something as simple as "not having an exciting testimony" or even not having one at all. I honestly can't remember when I became a Christian, and I have had some people who were incredulous at hearing that doubt my salvation. I know many many who have experienced similar. For the regular Christian, all this builds up into such an enormous pressure, and an intense focus inwards. Incurvatus in se would be the phrase I believe.
So many non-Reformed people are often very confused at why us P&R folks do certain things and not others, but take it from me, so many of them have felt the effects of their theology in this area, but haven't quite made the connection.
In terms of advice here, evangelicals have a strong dislike of anyone saying what the right of wrong way to worship is, but I think pointing out that it's good to have sombre or sad songs as well to express all our emotions before God, and that we want what we sing to be filled with biblical truth that should appeal to them on some level.
Also, even if you don't sing Psalms, appeal to the Psalms, evangelicals, despite the fact that most of them wouldn't touch singing an actual Psalm with the sharp end of a long stick, constantly appeal to them for justification for their worship styles. "Wow you hate songs that constantly repeat the chorus and bridge seventy seven times seven? Well the Psalms repeat all the time!"
Again, there's maybe like three Psalms that actually repeat a lot, but making analogies to the Psalms is one very acceptable line of argument in the Evangelical mind.
However you get this across to your family, just remember our worship should express all the emotions of the Christian life, so that we can honour God in any situation and so that we can be comforted. There have been many, many times where I have felt great joy in church, but sometimes I just need to sing Psalm 88.
Howard the Reformer
Puritan Board Freshman
I will appeal to my brothers to consider this:
Ask questions to determine what the other person is talking about when they want "upbeat" music. Nothing is more upbeat than singing praises to God. Use the moment as a teaching moment to educate other about what worship is and why we worship in the way we do. Do not lecture or present a superior attitude because when we do many will just nod and walk away. In my many years in Reformed churches I have found the gentile question can begin a discussion and then we can teach others why we believe what we do about worship.
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control; against such things there is no law." Gal. 5:22
Ask questions to determine what the other person is talking about when they want "upbeat" music. Nothing is more upbeat than singing praises to God. Use the moment as a teaching moment to educate other about what worship is and why we worship in the way we do. Do not lecture or present a superior attitude because when we do many will just nod and walk away. In my many years in Reformed churches I have found the gentile question can begin a discussion and then we can teach others why we believe what we do about worship.
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control; against such things there is no law." Gal. 5:22
Brian Withnell
Puritan Board Junior
Truth does not care how you feel. We worship because we are commanded to worship.
Brian Withnell
Puritan Board Junior
There are instances where the worship is upbeat (Psalm 150). There are also times where worship is not upbeat. "We played the pipe for you and you did not dance; we sang a dirge and you did not mourn."
It is appropriate (and we see it in the Psalms often) where people worship God in sorrow.
Reformed Apologist
Puritan Board Freshman
I would stress that we are fed by God's word first. Music is a nice bonus but it is faithful, solid expositional preaching that matters first. Not to mention, this is where the real growth is going to come from. I would also point out, that we don't want to create a habbit of church hopping over insignificant details.
On a side note, I take strong exception to chronic church hoppers. I think it's a primary indicator of an immature Christian.
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