Bygracealone
Puritan Board Sophomore
Brothers,
It's one thing for somebody to disagree with the position, it's quite another to make charges against men like Boston, Owen, Witsius, Rollock, Ames, Turretin, etc. on down to men like Kline, Horton, Clark, etc. as not having a good grasp of covenant theology or as ignoring very popular passages of Scripture. I simply don't think those are fair assessments. You may not agree with their methodology or their conclusions, but at least recognize they are well-respected teachers within the Reformed faith. For example, I have the utmost respect for Rev. Winzer and while I disagree with him on this matter, I wouldn't dare say that he doesn't have a good understanding of covenant theology or that he is ignoring popular passages of Scripture...
By the way, I don't consider myself to be a "Klinean." I reject the framework hypothesis and while I appreciate the research that has gone into the study of the ANE suzerain treaties, I'm not yet sure about how much weight to give to these findings with regard to interpreting the covenants within Scripture. I say these things so that you all might know that there are people like me who hold to the republication view who are not die hard Klineans. I don't mind labels so long as they fit. So, feel free to call me a Calvinist, Covenanter, or Marrow Man, but the Klinean label doesn't fit. Okay, now back to the issue at hand.
(I might add, I would much rather have other more competent men take up and defend this position instead of me, but it seems they're all busy at the moment, so I'll do my best recognizing I may be in over my head )
In Galatians 4, Paul is contrasting two covenants, two mountains, and two mothers (to borrow from Horton). What is the basis of the contrast? Do we not see there a contrast of law to grace? Wasn't part of the Galatian heresy one where people had confused law with grace as the basis for salvation? Why does Paul bring up the two covenants, mountains, and women in this letter?
Now, recognizing not everybody agrees that the Mosaic covenant was a national and temporary covenant, I would ask this question: Why was Israel kicked out of the land of promise? Why did she ultimately lose her national status? Was it not due to her disobedience to the covenant stipulations as a nation?
Please note, I fully recognize the gracious elements of the overarching CoG. In fact, their disobedience did not nullify the eternal promises made to Abraham and his seed, 430 years earlier. By all means, that's gracious. Nevertheless, their disobedience led to the loss of a number of temporal blessings that were promised in the Mosaic covenant. They failed to stay true to their covenant oath:
Exodus 24:6-8 6 And Moses took half the blood and put it in basins, and half the blood he sprinkled on the altar. 7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read in the hearing of the people. And they said, "All that the LORD has said we will do, and be obedient." 8 And Moses took the blood, sprinkled it on the people, and said, "This is the blood of the covenant which the LORD has made with you according to all these words."
I will try to interact with the comments of this thread as I have opportunity. Like the rest of you, I'm quite busy, but this thread and this topic are of great interest to me, so I will try to give as much attention to it as I'm able. I hope this discussion will prove helpful to all of us as we seek to bring glory to our Lord as we study His Word.
It's one thing for somebody to disagree with the position, it's quite another to make charges against men like Boston, Owen, Witsius, Rollock, Ames, Turretin, etc. on down to men like Kline, Horton, Clark, etc. as not having a good grasp of covenant theology or as ignoring very popular passages of Scripture. I simply don't think those are fair assessments. You may not agree with their methodology or their conclusions, but at least recognize they are well-respected teachers within the Reformed faith. For example, I have the utmost respect for Rev. Winzer and while I disagree with him on this matter, I wouldn't dare say that he doesn't have a good understanding of covenant theology or that he is ignoring popular passages of Scripture...
By the way, I don't consider myself to be a "Klinean." I reject the framework hypothesis and while I appreciate the research that has gone into the study of the ANE suzerain treaties, I'm not yet sure about how much weight to give to these findings with regard to interpreting the covenants within Scripture. I say these things so that you all might know that there are people like me who hold to the republication view who are not die hard Klineans. I don't mind labels so long as they fit. So, feel free to call me a Calvinist, Covenanter, or Marrow Man, but the Klinean label doesn't fit. Okay, now back to the issue at hand.
(I might add, I would much rather have other more competent men take up and defend this position instead of me, but it seems they're all busy at the moment, so I'll do my best recognizing I may be in over my head )
In Galatians 4, Paul is contrasting two covenants, two mountains, and two mothers (to borrow from Horton). What is the basis of the contrast? Do we not see there a contrast of law to grace? Wasn't part of the Galatian heresy one where people had confused law with grace as the basis for salvation? Why does Paul bring up the two covenants, mountains, and women in this letter?
Now, recognizing not everybody agrees that the Mosaic covenant was a national and temporary covenant, I would ask this question: Why was Israel kicked out of the land of promise? Why did she ultimately lose her national status? Was it not due to her disobedience to the covenant stipulations as a nation?
Please note, I fully recognize the gracious elements of the overarching CoG. In fact, their disobedience did not nullify the eternal promises made to Abraham and his seed, 430 years earlier. By all means, that's gracious. Nevertheless, their disobedience led to the loss of a number of temporal blessings that were promised in the Mosaic covenant. They failed to stay true to their covenant oath:
Exodus 24:6-8 6 And Moses took half the blood and put it in basins, and half the blood he sprinkled on the altar. 7 Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read in the hearing of the people. And they said, "All that the LORD has said we will do, and be obedient." 8 And Moses took the blood, sprinkled it on the people, and said, "This is the blood of the covenant which the LORD has made with you according to all these words."
I will try to interact with the comments of this thread as I have opportunity. Like the rest of you, I'm quite busy, but this thread and this topic are of great interest to me, so I will try to give as much attention to it as I'm able. I hope this discussion will prove helpful to all of us as we seek to bring glory to our Lord as we study His Word.