Moral Question: Vaccine Ingredient WI-38 & WALVAX-2 -- Aborted Fetal Tissue

Discussion in 'Theological Forum' started by RobertPGH1981, Feb 13, 2019.

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  1. RobertPGH1981

    RobertPGH1981 Puritan Board Freshman

    This question has nothing to do with being for or against vaccines from a health standpoint. This is an exercise in applying Theology to modern issues. In other words its a moral question. Here it goes....

    I researched ingredients to common vaccines like the Measles. An ingredient called WI-38 is an example ingredient of several found in some vaccines like measles. Its basically cells from an aborted featus' lungs from an abortion dated in 1960.. So its not a recent abortion but it was developed during the original creation of the vaccine three generations removed. In other words scientists used aborted fetus cells and currently grow those cells in a lab over the course of many years. They are reaching their maxium life in which China created WALVAX-2 in 2015 by using recently aborted fetus’. I suspect its going to replace WI-38 when its no longer viable since they have a limited lifespan. Google the names and you will find plenty of info.

    Is it sinful/moral to knowingly use a vaccine with WI-38 (1960 aborted fetus cells)?

    Is it sinful/moral to knowingly use a vaccine with WALVAX-2 (2015 aborted fetus cells)?

    This is not a debate over if somebody should vaccinate. Its a debate over the moral question from a theological vantage point. Through this moral question one may decide they should not vaccinate.
     
  2. RobertPGH1981

    RobertPGH1981 Puritan Board Freshman

    This is definitely a tough subject.

    I posted this in a Facebook group and somebody stated the following scenario. If somebody gave you stolen goods you are not legally allowed to sell them or use them. The parallel would be God's law forbids us from committing an abortion. Therefore, using or selling those parts would still be violating God's law in a different degree. Thoughts on this?

    Are there any biblical stories that you can draw parallels from?
     
  3. earl40

    earl40 Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    I wonder if this would follow the idea of don't ask for conscience sake?
     
  4. RobertPGH1981

    RobertPGH1981 Puritan Board Freshman

    Unfortunately now that you read this you know. I also don’t think ignorance can be used regardless.


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    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
  5. earl40

    earl40 Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    So I am to ask if the vaccine was made with the aborted babies?
     
  6. RobertPGH1981

    RobertPGH1981 Puritan Board Freshman

    No, I am saying for the measles vaccine you already know this to be true and others on the market.


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  7. RobertPGH1981

    RobertPGH1981 Puritan Board Freshman

    Gen 26:9 So Abimelech called Isaac and said, “Behold, she is your wife. How then could you say, ‘She is my sister’?” Isaac said to him, “Because I thought, ‘Lest I die because of her.’”
    Gen 26:10 Abimelech said, “What is this you have done to us? One of the people might easily have lain with your wife, and you would have brought guilt upon us.”



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  8. Reformed Covenanter

    Reformed Covenanter Puritan Board Doctor

    The general equity of the prohibition on receiving stolen goods precludes us from knowingly receiving vaccines made from the parts of aborted babies. If it is wrong to receive stolen goods and profit from property that does not legitimately belong to you, how much more, then, is it wrong to receive the body parts of those unjustly murdered through abortion.

    I am sure that someone else can state this matter more cogently that I can at present, but I hope that the above paragraph at least makes some sense.
     
  9. jwithnell

    jwithnell Moderator Staff Member

    So much of the information on the topic comes through sources with a particular viewpoint, like anti-vaccination folks. A potentially reliable source, a children's hospital in Philly, suggests only certain types comes from an historic aborted cell medium:

    "Varicella (chickenpox), rubella (the “R” in the MMR vaccine), hepatitis A, one version of the shingles vaccine, and one preparation of rabies vaccine are all made by growing the viruses in fetal embryo fibroblast cells."

    We don't typically use the rabies vaccine on humans in the US, and parents are divided on the low effectiveness of the chickenpox shot. That leaves rubella. Getting shots divided into individual components can be tough, as our family found out when we tried to slow the schedule for our last son.

    I'd love to have a fuller picture of the situation. Thanks, Robert, for raising the issue. It's frustrating what we don't know in such an informed time.

    In answering the original question, might it come down to a tough choice in a fallen world: a known 6th commandment violation involving two women years ago versus potential health problems and deaths in the future?
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
  10. NaphtaliPress

    NaphtaliPress Administrator Staff Member

  11. Johnathan Lee Allen

    Johnathan Lee Allen Puritan Board Freshman

    RobertPGH1981,

    This is a heavy topic indeed. It would seem that you have already made both a good theological and ethical argument against using such vaccines.

    How is this being received on the Facebook discussion?
     
  12. jwithnell

    jwithnell Moderator Staff Member

    So it does appear there are better choices (from the first article):
    "The FDA has approved two alternative cell strains derived from human and non-human tumorigenic tissue, neither of which is implicated in destruction of human beings. And the FDA still licenses vaccines (mumps and measles vaccine) that are produced from cell substrates taken from chick embryos."
     
  13. TylerRay

    TylerRay Puritan Board Senior

    Am I wrong in thinking that this essentially the same thing as cannibalism? We're consuming parts of children, correct? Sure, they don't pass through our digestive tract, but is it really much different?
     
  14. Grant Jones

    Grant Jones Puritan Board Junior

    This is very interesting information. And is causing me to rethink things I had not thought of before.

    1. Would it be wrong to take an organ transplant, if the the original host was wrongfully murdered (assuming the recipient was not the murderer?

    2. Kids are still dying in the US from measles, what would be alternatives to prevent this (outside of the abortion derived vaccines) ? It sounds like there are some measle Vacines that don’t find their origins in aborted babies.

    3. What exactly would one be guilty of for giving this vaccine to their children? I belief some of our taxes actually fund abortions, yet we still pay them. Again, just thinking out loud.

    4. Should church discipline be brought against families in churches who get the vaccines for their newborns?

    5. Is getting this vaccine any different from buying, clothes, groceries, devices from a store that supports planned parenthood?
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019
  15. TylerRay

    TylerRay Puritan Board Senior

    This would deserve a thread itself, but the more fundamental question is whether we are at liberty to have our body parts (which are parts of our person, are united to Christ, will be raised at the last day, etc.) removed and joined to other people in the first place.
     
  16. Grant Jones

    Grant Jones Puritan Board Junior

    Tyler would you not give your son a kidney if he needed it and you were a perfect match?
     
  17. Stephen L Smith

    Stephen L Smith Moderator

    Or would you do a blood transfusion to save life?
     
  18. Johnathan Lee Allen

    Johnathan Lee Allen Puritan Board Freshman

    This is what initially went through my mind, too. Taking the parts of another person to benefit yourself...
     
  19. Johnathan Lee Allen

    Johnathan Lee Allen Puritan Board Freshman

    The major difference is involvement of the will.
     
  20. Grant Jones

    Grant Jones Puritan Board Junior

    So if you needed a heart transplant, and further let’s assume you have young children and a wife, (only saying this because I do not know you).........you would not pursue it?
     
  21. Johnathan Lee Allen

    Johnathan Lee Allen Puritan Board Freshman

    I personally am not ascribing to the notion that the physical body must remain intact for theological reasons (I’m not talking about harmful dismemberment or something). I would pursue the transplant. I see a massive distinction. The person who dies in an accident has volunteered as an organ donor. They chose this. It is a contract of sorts being fulfilled with outcomes desired. Abortion isn’t so.
     
  22. Grant Jones

    Grant Jones Puritan Board Junior

    A parent’s will in getting a vaccine is usually so they don’t die of a particular viruse...I assume. Abo
    Do you avoid commerce with businesses that pay for abortions?

    The line of thinking seems to be, getting your kids vaccinated (those mentioned in The OP) supports murdering babies. Does not also buying goods from businesses that fund pro-choice?https://familycouncil.org/?p=14353

    P.S. I am not concluded one way or another on the OP.
     
  23. Grant Jones

    Grant Jones Puritan Board Junior

    Maybe we can get some Pastorly wisdom on the OP:detective:
     
  24. Johnathan Lee Allen

    Johnathan Lee Allen Puritan Board Freshman

    @Grant Jones

    Some things seem to not be possible to avoid in our time. We may be aware and we are may not be. I think we are largely less aware. If we can avoid it, we ought to. I also believe God will ultimately punish those who put people into such positions. I hope they repent even knowing that others will take their place. My wife and I made those decisions for our daughter.
     
  25. Grant Jones

    Grant Jones Puritan Board Junior

    Do you mean that you did have the vaccinations?
     
  26. Johnathan Lee Allen

    Johnathan Lee Allen Puritan Board Freshman

    We chose not to.

    PS. I'm not up for debating this point. Parents can and should make their own choices in the matter.
     
  27. Grant Jones

    Grant Jones Puritan Board Junior

    I see. Regardless how I land, I am thankful for the post. While it does cause me some remorsee with my two daughters having been vaccinated, I will definitely be reconsidering this topic with any kids (Lord willing).
     
  28. TylerRay

    TylerRay Puritan Board Senior

    I understand the seriousness of the scenario. There is a man I know (for whom I have a great deal of love and respect) who recently did give his kidney to save his son's life, and I was not about to try and stop him, nor do I judge him for it. The question is, however, am I at liberty to give my members away? I don't own myself.
    In my opinion, a blood transfusion is a different matter. It's a bodily fluid that is constantly being produced and destroyed.

    Brothers, I love you, but I don't want answer any more questions about this on this thread. I have already done my share of sidetracking. I'll be happy to discuss these matters on another thread or in a PM.
     
  29. Von

    Von Puritan Board Freshman

    Just a clarification of the facts:
    They don't include the foetal cells as an ingredient of the vaccine. It is the growth medium on which the vaccine is developed/grown.
     
  30. RobertPGH1981

    RobertPGH1981 Puritan Board Freshman


    All of the information on the ingredients I obtained directly from the CDC website. WI-38 is an ingredient so I verified several sources on what that meant. I think when Philly Hospital position is based upon the fact that the cells are grown in a lab and three generations removed. There is no way to get around the fact that if you take the vaccine you are injecting the virus which is grown on the cells from an aborted fetus from 1960 since its an ingredient. I do not think that the vaccine can be made without those cells... at least for now. If people don't make a point that this isn't acceptable WARVAX-2 will be used which I see as enabling the Pharma companies to not seek alternate means. Its a really tough subject to navigate.
     
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