Modern Worship?

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Shaffer

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What is your opinion about much of the "new worship" found in most evangelical and charismatic churches? I must admit that I do enjoy listening to a lot of modern Christian music, but it seems to me like a lot of the worship services seem to get people into some sort of a trance. For example, I notice that in some worship services I've been to there is very little Biblical content to any of the songs and many of the lyrics seem to be very mystical. Is this really worshipping God in spirit and truth, with our minds hypnotised by some rhythmic song? It also seems to me that there is a real lack of outward reverance to God. Do you think that this is the case?

Lastly, if there is something unbiblical about this, what can be done to return to a Biblical and Christ-centered corporate worship?
 
Return to the regulative principle of worship (RPW). If you do a search on the phrase or on RPW you should turn up a lot of prior board discussion.
 
in some worship services I've been to there is very little Biblical content to any of the songs and many of the lyrics seem to be very mystical.
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WFU: "abomination"

In this we can be agreed...but probably vary our degrees of definition.

-JD
 
A lot has been said about this on the board Brady. Some of the questions that need to be answered are:

- What in a service is entertainment and marketing and what is worship?

- Is God the center of the worship or is man the focus of the entertainment? Who are we trying to please?

- Are there guidelines in scripture that help us to order corporate worship?

- Can we decide how we will worship God or has he given us biblical directives?

- Should worship be governed by a normative principle - that all things are allowed unless scripture says otherwise? or,

- Should worship be governed by a regulative principle - that only those things prescribed by scripture should make up our worship service.

You will keep hearing of the regulative principle but agreement on what elements make up the RP is impossible. A regulative principle must be driven by a true devotion to worship God and the resulting attempt to achieve a purity in our worship practice. Don't be confused by the lack of agreement. We all agree that modern worship is an abomination and that there must be a biblical and prayerful attempt to seek a purity in worship practice.

By the way Brady, I missed the opportunity to welcome you sir. Welcome!

[Edited on 6-9-2006 by BobVigneault]
 
Or as William Cunningham wrote:
"œThe Reformers and the Regulative Principle," The Reformation of the Church. A collection of Reformed and Puritan documents on Church issues (Edinburgh: The Banner of Truth Trust, 1965; rpt. 1987) 38-39.
The principle is in a sense a very wide and sweeping one. But it is purely prohibitory or exclusive; and the practical effect of it, if it were fully carried out, would just be to leave the Church in the condition in which it was left by the apostles, in so far as we have any means of information "“ a result, surely, which need not be very alarming, except to those who think that they themselves have very superior powers fro improving and adorning the Church by their inventions. The principle ought to be understood in a common-sense way, and we ought to be satisfied with reasonable evidence of its truth. Those who dislike this principle, from whatever cause, usually try to run us into difficulties by putting a very stringent construction upon it, and thereby giving it an appearance of absurdity, or by demanding an unreasonable amount of evidence to establish it. The principle must be interpreted and explained in the exercise of common sense. One obvious modification of it is suggested in the first chapter of the Westminster Confession of Faith where it is acknowledged "˜that there are some circumstances, concerning the worship of God and government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed´. But even this distinction between things and circumstances cannot always be applied very certainly; that is, cases have occurred in which there might be room for a difference of opinion, whether a proposed regulation or arrangement was a distinct thing in the way of innovation, or merely a circumstance attaching to an authorized thing and requiring to be regulated. Difficulties and differences of opinions may arise about details, even when sound judgment and good sense are brought to bear upon the interpretation and application of the principle; but this affords no ground for denying or doubting the truth or soundness of the principle itself.
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I agree with you completely Bob. I used to attend a seeker sensitive church a couple years back and I was very concerned to see almost no reverance for God. After that I started to attend a local Reformed Baptist Church. I know about the regulative principle but like you said I am sometimes confused by all the disagreement with how it is defined. If anyone wants to read an EXCELLENT article on the biblical problems with "new worship" check out Worship in the Melting Pot by Dr. Peter Masters from Metropolitain Tabernacle in London.
 
Originally posted by Shaffer
I agree with you completely Bob. I used to attend a seeker sensitive church a couple years back and I was very concerned to see almost no reverance for God. After that I started to attend a local Reformed Baptist Church. I know about the regulative principle but like you said I am sometimes confused by all the disagreement with how it is defined. If anyone wants to read an EXCELLENT article on the biblical problems with "new worship" check out Worship in the Melting Pot by Dr. Peter Masters from Metropolitain Tabernacle in London.
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I second that!

JH
 
Gods people perish for lack of knowledge; shame on the shepherds who lead the flock astray by assaulting Gods principle for worship. These men should step down as God has not sent them; if He had, they would know the truth about how God is to be worshipped.

Two things one needs to keep in mind;
1) all music does not meet this criteria, and
2) some music does.

Since there is a question as to what is to be used, the safest bet is to sing Gods word, i.e. the Psalms, as one cannot make a mistake singing Gods words.

Gods words can be sung from an unregenerate, making the song, blasphemos, and some people sing from a bad heart, making the words illicit. However, those that approach God with the correct disposition, are less likely to assault the rpw in my opinion.

[Edited on 6-10-2006 by Scott Bushey]
 
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Gods people perish for lack of knowledge; shame on the shepherds who lead the flock astray by assaulting Gods principle for worship. These men should step down as God has not sent them; if He had, they would know the truth about how God is to be worshipped.

Two things one needs to keep in mind;
1) all music does not meet this criteria, and
2) some music does.

Since there is a question as to what is to be used, the safest bet is to sing Gods word, i.e. the Psalms, as one cannot make a mistake singing Gods words.
Click to expand...

What would you say about modern artists such as Chris Tomlin? Most of his lyrics are strait out of scripture and though his music would be considered modern, it clearly sounds nothing like the music of the world (at least I don't think so). Is it okay if we worship God for who has revealed Himself to be in scripture accompanied by modern music (though NOT worldly music)?
 
yes


Ephesians 5:19
addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with all your heart,


Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

-pax-

-JD

[Edited on 6-10-2006 by jdlongmire]
 
Originally posted by Shaffer
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Gods people perish for lack of knowledge; shame on the shepherds who lead the flock astray by assaulting Gods principle for worship. These men should step down as God has not sent them; if He had, they would know the truth about how God is to be worshipped.

Two things one needs to keep in mind;
1) all music does not meet this criteria, and
2) some music does.

Since there is a question as to what is to be used, the safest bet is to sing Gods word, i.e. the Psalms, as one cannot make a mistake singing Gods words.
Click to expand...

What would you say about modern artists such as Chris Tomlin? Most of his lyrics are strait out of scripture and though his music would be considered modern, it clearly sounds nothing like the music of the world (at least I don't think so). Is it okay if we worship God for who has revealed Himself to be in scripture accompanied by modern music (though NOT worldly music)?
Click to expand...

I do love the song "Indescribable" by Tomlin!

Indescribable, uncontainable,
You put the stars in the sky and you know them by name.
You are amazing God!
All powerful, unchangeable,
Awestruck we fall to our knees and we humbly proclaim
You are amazing God, you are amazing God.
Indescribable, uncontainable,
You see the depths of my heart and you love me the same
You are amazing God

Is there a chance he is erring? As well, worship is made for church services. Private worship is entirely different. Are you speaking of private or public? The elder/pastor is worship leader. Is Chris T. a pastor of a church? Is he playing his music for the visible/local or invisible/universal church?

My suggestion, keep contemporary worship out of the church, sing the psalms (as it is the safest) and enjoyy what people like Tomlin bring to the table otherwise.
 
Yes - thinking along the lines of Phillips, Craig and Dean - proponents of heresy (Oneness Pentacostalism)- yet very popular CC Musicians.

[Edited on 6-10-2006 by jdlongmire]
 
Originally posted by jdlongmire
yes


Ephesians 5:19
addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with all your heart,


Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

-pax-

-JD

[Edited on 6-10-2006 by jdlongmire]
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JD,
Not wanting to turn this into a EP debate, but I know you have no idea what the Apostle meant when he said hymms and spiritual songs. No one knows. Having said this, you are left with only one clear cut choice on what is NOT assaulting Gods RPW, the psalms.
 
Thank you for clarifying sir. I have a lot to learn about what the Bible defines as acceptable public worship. I would stand in agreement with you; in public, even Tomlin can become more of a concert than a God-honoring time of genuine worship. I know because I have seen it. Thanks for the input!
 
Originally posted by jdlongmire
Yes - thinking along the lines of Phillips, Craig and Dean - proponents of heresy (Oneness Pentacostalism)- yet very popular CC Musicians.

[Edited on 6-10-2006 by jdlongmire]
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So, some stuff assaults the RPW. If some stuff assaults it, who makes the decisions as to what is approvable? God? Since the question is unanswerable, is it not clear that the safest way to eliminate any possible reproach, to sing the Psalms?
 
Originally posted by Shaffer
Thank you for clarifying sir. I have a lot to learn about what the Bible defines as acceptable public worship. I would stand in agreement with you; in public, even Tomlin can become more of a concert than a God-honoring time of genuine worship. I know because I have seen it. Thanks for the input!
Click to expand...

Brady,
Again, keep in mind, the disticnction needs to be made in regards to private worship and church setting. Not that I would change anything on my end in that regard. The psalms are the safest.

One might say, you then need to sing it in Koine, or Hebrew, or something like that then. My reply would be, the bible is written in english; I will sing it in english safely.
 
JD,
Not wanting to turn this into a EP debate, but I know you have no idea what the Apostle meant when he said hymms and spiritual songs. No one knows. Having said this, you are left with only one clear cut choice on what is NOT assaulting Gods RPW, the psalms.
Click to expand...


You are so! :D

And you have no way to know specifically what or if liberty was given by Christ when he said in Matthew 6:9 "Pray then like this: "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name..."so you should not wound the Spirit by your prayers from your imagination and just pray the Lord's prayer in worship.

[Edited on 6-10-2006 by jdlongmire]
 
Originally posted by jdlongmire
You are so! :D

And you have no way to know specifically what or if liberty was given by Christ when he said in Matthew 6:9 "Pray then like this: "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name..."so you should not wound the Spirit by your prayers from your imagination and just pray the Lord's prayer in worship.
Click to expand...

Not following you........please elaborate.
 
P1 no modern person truly knows what hymns and spriritual songs are
P2 Psalms (at least the words) are known and acceptable
C1 It is safest to only sing Psalms to avoid reproach

and likewise...

P1 no modern person truly knows if Christ was or was not setting a commandment for prayer
P2 The Lord's Prayer is known and acceptable
C1 It is safest to only pray the Lord's Prayer to avoid reproach

[Edited on 6-10-2006 by jdlongmire]
 
I reread your post on the Lords prayer. WRONG! The rest of scripture reveals the concept of prayer............do you want me to post all the scriptures? Bad reference or analogy, JD.
 
Originally posted by Shaffer
Thank you for clarifying sir. I have a lot to learn about what the Bible defines as acceptable public worship. I would stand in agreement with you; in public, even Tomlin can become more of a concert than a God-honoring time of genuine worship. I know because I have seen it. Thanks for the input!
Click to expand...

In public the Psalms are often sung as a concert, in concert style or with concert intent. Even in worship.
 
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
I reread your post on the Lords prayer. WRONG! The rest of scripture reveals the concept of prayer............do you want me to post all the scriptures? Bad reference or analogy, JD.
Click to expand...

Scott, you are just looking to hammer home your hermeneutic. The point is - if you are looking for the safest format for worship and wrap it in in legalism - you will certainly start to strain the gnat and swallow the camel.

In Essentials, Unity; in Non-essentials, Liberty; in All Things, Charity

[Edited on 6-10-2006 by jdlongmire]
 
Originally posted by jdlongmire
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
I reread your post on the Lords prayer. WRONG! The rest of scripture reveals the concept of prayer............do you want me to post all the scriptures? Bad reference or analogy, JD.
Click to expand...

Scott, you are just looking to hammer home your hermeneutic. The point is - if you are looking for the safest format for worship and wrap it in in legalism - you will certainly start to strain the gnat and swallow the camel.

In Essentials, Unity; in Non-essentials, Liberty; in All Things, Charity

[Edited on 6-10-2006 by jdlongmire]
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I don't quite get your point. Is your hermeneutic any different in regards to your previous statement on prayer? Legalism? Is not God legalism in it's truest form? Are we not commanded to be perfect? Is that legalism or Gods legality?

You may see worship as a 'non-essentail'. Tell that to Nadab and Abihu.

Leviticus 10:1-2 NAS Leviticus 10:1 Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took their respective firepans, and after putting fire in them, placed incense on it and offered strange fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them. 2 And fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD.

I'd rather be safe than sorry.
 
Originally posted by jdlongmire
Originally posted by Shaffer
Thank you for clarifying sir. I have a lot to learn about what the Bible defines as acceptable public worship. I would stand in agreement with you; in public, even Tomlin can become more of a concert than a God-honoring time of genuine worship. I know because I have seen it. Thanks for the input!
Click to expand...

In public the Psalms are often sung as a concert, in concert style or with concert intent. Even in worship.
Click to expand...

We sing accapelo. In a church setting. Gods word is not meant to entertain; it is a refining fire, meant to bring the hearer into closer harmony with the creator.
 
...to be safest - you should sing them acapella in the original language and with the original tunes...and if you don't know that - you should only utter them.
 
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