Mixed Race Marriage Resources?
- Thread starter SEAGOON
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RamistThomist
Puritanboard Clerk
John Piper has some stuff on it. probably look at his web site.
SolaGratia
Puritan Board Junior
The Bible
Greg
Puritan Board Sophomore
DMcFadden
Puritanboard Commissioner
SEAGOON
Puritan Board Freshman
Hi Guys,
Thanks for the links that have been posted. Yes the short answer is the bible. Here is the answer I had to give to my former Pastor and mentor on the Warfield List when he pointed out the same thing:
"Although this is a no-brainer for you and I (Rahab, Ruth, Tamar, Moses' Ethiopian wife, the fact we are all "one blood", and descended from one family, etc. ad infinitum), you have to remember that there are still American evangelicals who have been taught all their lives that marriages between blacks and whites are sinful. Both you and I also know of Korean Christians who don't believe Koreans should marry non-Koreans and that to do so is sinful. Bob Jones U. didn't admit blacks till 1971, and then only married ones, and then in 1975 promulgated a "no-interracial dating" policy till 2000. Both of us also know of things in the writings of theological giants like Dabney and Thornwell that make us wince and shake our heads. Simply put, for years down here, sound theology has been trumped by deeply-ingrained racial attitudes.
Anyway, I'm in the process of putting together a bible-study on courtship and marriage, and as odd as this sounds, having to make an argument that inter-racial marriage is biblical and reformed and not the result of political correctness in the church.
It really is an entirely different kettle of fish down here in the south, even in a federal colony like Fayetteville. I'm sure other Southern Ministers on the list could tell you similar stories. You guys up in Yankee land may not have the bible-belt home-court advantage (although that does really extend to crazy Calvinists like us) but you do have a few other less perceptible things working in your favor."
Thanks for the links that have been posted. Yes the short answer is the bible. Here is the answer I had to give to my former Pastor and mentor on the Warfield List when he pointed out the same thing:
"Although this is a no-brainer for you and I (Rahab, Ruth, Tamar, Moses' Ethiopian wife, the fact we are all "one blood", and descended from one family, etc. ad infinitum), you have to remember that there are still American evangelicals who have been taught all their lives that marriages between blacks and whites are sinful. Both you and I also know of Korean Christians who don't believe Koreans should marry non-Koreans and that to do so is sinful. Bob Jones U. didn't admit blacks till 1971, and then only married ones, and then in 1975 promulgated a "no-interracial dating" policy till 2000. Both of us also know of things in the writings of theological giants like Dabney and Thornwell that make us wince and shake our heads. Simply put, for years down here, sound theology has been trumped by deeply-ingrained racial attitudes.
Anyway, I'm in the process of putting together a bible-study on courtship and marriage, and as odd as this sounds, having to make an argument that inter-racial marriage is biblical and reformed and not the result of political correctness in the church.
It really is an entirely different kettle of fish down here in the south, even in a federal colony like Fayetteville. I'm sure other Southern Ministers on the list could tell you similar stories. You guys up in Yankee land may not have the bible-belt home-court advantage (although that does really extend to crazy Calvinists like us) but you do have a few other less perceptible things working in your favor."
DMcFadden
Puritanboard Commissioner
One of the reasons why our congregation mirrors the demographics of the community (45% Asian, 35% Hispanic, the rest African-American and clear is that we are known as a place that welcomes racially mixed couples. In our church, it is so common that I have never heard anyone make a negative comment.
When my second son went off to college, I assumed that he would probably not marry a white woman. During high school, every girl he took to a dance was of some other ethnic group (Asian, Indian, Hispanic, Black) than white. As it turns out, he married a white girl with some trace of Native American (doesn't everybody in OK claim to be "seomwhat" Native American?).
I believe that there are places where it would not be acceptable. However, in Southern California, it has not been an issue recently that I'm aware of anyhow.
When my second son went off to college, I assumed that he would probably not marry a white woman. During high school, every girl he took to a dance was of some other ethnic group (Asian, Indian, Hispanic, Black) than white. As it turns out, he married a white girl with some trace of Native American (doesn't everybody in OK claim to be "seomwhat" Native American?).
I believe that there are places where it would not be acceptable. However, in Southern California, it has not been an issue recently that I'm aware of anyhow.
Thomas2007
Puritan Board Sophomore
Would it even be possible possible for someone to make an argument against miscegenation without being accused of being a hate monger and other vile things?
I sincerely doubt that the issue can even be discussed objectively.
I sincerely doubt that the issue can even be discussed objectively.
Zenas
Snow Miser
You would first have to establish that the imago dei is somehow conveyed to other ethnicities in a fashion that differentiates them so much as to render them wholly seperate from other ethnicities. Then you would have to come up with a negative command from Scripture prohibiting the mixing between the two.
People attempted to do this by equating black people with the "sinful race of Cain". The only problem with this is it's devoid of proof, scholarship, authority, etc. and is a result of racist esiegesis.
The only inter-mixing I'm aware of that we are told to avoid is to not become un-equally yoked, i.e. don't marry an unbeliever. I, for one, will be adopting, presumably outside of my ethnicity, and I do hope that any Reformed family would be open to their son or daughter marrying my son or daughter, despite their differing ethnicity. Likewise, I would not be opposed to my biological son or daughter marrying someone of an ethnicity other than Anglo.
People attempted to do this by equating black people with the "sinful race of Cain". The only problem with this is it's devoid of proof, scholarship, authority, etc. and is a result of racist esiegesis.
The only inter-mixing I'm aware of that we are told to avoid is to not become un-equally yoked, i.e. don't marry an unbeliever. I, for one, will be adopting, presumably outside of my ethnicity, and I do hope that any Reformed family would be open to their son or daughter marrying my son or daughter, despite their differing ethnicity. Likewise, I would not be opposed to my biological son or daughter marrying someone of an ethnicity other than Anglo.
Thomas2007
Puritan Board Sophomore
Why? I've never heard anyone make that type of argument - it's ludricrous on it's face. Everyone is a descendent from Adam, correct? Why would someone have to make that type of argument?
SEAGOON
Puritan Board Freshman
Hi Thomas,
I sincerely promise not to call you hateful things if you want to try. In fact it would be helpful to me before I have to do it in teaching.
Please go ahead and explain why from a scriptural standpoint, the marriage between a believing American and a believing Korean is sinful.
I'll look forward to your reply, but since the baby is changed and has gone back to sleep, I'm off back to bed, I'll have to read it tomorrow.
- Andy
I sincerely promise not to call you hateful things if you want to try. In fact it would be helpful to me before I have to do it in teaching.
Please go ahead and explain why from a scriptural standpoint, the marriage between a believing American and a believing Korean is sinful.
I'll look forward to your reply, but since the baby is changed and has gone back to sleep, I'm off back to bed, I'll have to read it tomorrow.
- Andy
I live in the northern midwest and I think there would be a significant portion of the population that would frown on interracial marriage. This mindset was carried into the church I attended as a lad, although I believe in this case the mindset was more a regional tradition than an ecclesiastical one. A good percentage of this area was originally settled by German immigrants, who tend to have a strong sense of national and racial pride, so perhaps these tendencies flow in part from that tradition, although I am speculating at this point.
The arguments I have heard made in regard to forbidding mixed races marrying flow along a couple lines. I have heard folks postulate from a faulty exegesis of "be not unequally yoked". I have also heard arguments made from nature. "If God wanted to order mankind in the context of races, why should we desire to eliminate them through mixed marriage?" Some would draw principles from some of the rather strong passages dealing with the Israelites mingling with other nations.
This issue has a tendency to be rather explosive. In a society increasingly sensitive to sharing opinions about race, it is difficult to speak strongly one way or another. I have friends that have entered into interracial marriages and friends who think it wrong. I have observed critical comments to be directed toward both mindsets!
The question I have is this: is it wrong for a Christian to have a sense of national or ethnic pride if it does not flow from a discriminatory context? For example, could parents instruct their children to marry within racial or national lines because they are proud of their heritage and kinship?
SEAGOON
Puritan Board Freshman
Hi Bob,
Just a few thoughts, let me start with a few practical applications of the "you should should your pride in your ethnicity and only marry within your kin" mindset. And then move to a theological consideration.
First, instructing your children to marry within ethnic lines inevitable communicates strong disapproval for failing to do so, and a sense that the people outside of our ethnicity no matter how good a Christian they might be are in some sense not quite as good. Non-discriminatory ethnic pride, while a nice idea just doesn't occur in a fallen world. Indeed to favor one thing or person over another is to discriminate between them. If we apply the teaching to the bible, it makes Miriam and Aaron right in some sense to disapprove not only of Moses' marriage to the Cushite (Ethiopian) but also to Zipporah. It also would have meant the townsfolk and kin of Ruth, far from blessing her, would have strongly disapproved of Boaz's decision to marry her and would have encouraged him instead to choose an eligible female from good Jewish stock. Indeed, she would have been an unsuitable marriage partner for any of the men of Bethlehem. Naomi would have had to answer her speech with something along the lines of, "Well that's sweet honey, but the my people/your people thing isn't going to work out. We Jews have a certain ethnic pride and don't approve of marriage and such to Moabites. So much for being an ancestor of Jesus, or even being fully integrated into Jewish society. Actually, the example itself is moot, as Boaz wouldn't have existed. His father Salmon, being properly instructed by his parents, would have known Rahab would have been an unsuitable wife as well. So that union wouldn't have taken place.
Also, trying to instill a sense of absolute fellowship, so that your children eagerly play with, eat with, have sleep-overs with, and do everything with Christian children from other ethnic backgrounds and then telling them you should not court, date, or marry them will inevitably break down. Show them they are one in Christ and let them live that out, and they will realize that their fellow Christians are suitable marriage partners regardless of skin color, accent, or eye shape. The only way you'll manage to keep the "we don't marry them" barrier up in the modern world, is if you eliminate or sharply limit their access to ethnically different Christian children and do all you can to instill a sense that ethnicity comes first and Christianity second.
Also, theologically the ethnic pride argument undermines the essential oneness of the Covenant community, it forgets that we are sojourners and pilgrims here on earth, that our citizenship is in heaven, not a particular earthly country, and that the real division is between believers and unbelievers. For instance, in reminding Christians that they were sojourners "just passing through" earth on the way to heaven, Peter states:
"having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation."
Those, "gentiles" would have been their fellow countrymen, and yet he separates Christians from them. The church is the primary bond.
To see proof that we really are one in every sense with our fellow believers, regardless of ethnicity, just read the words of Paul in Ephesians 2:11-22. The middle wall of separation is gone, God has built one man from the two, they were aliens, but now they are fellow citizens of the same country and one holy temple without gaps, dividing walls, and separations:
Personally, I had the heartbreaking experience of watching a beautiful sister in Christ marry an unbelieving State Trooper, because her Christian mother liked him, knew his family, and because as she put it, "I just haven't met any strong Christian black men and I'm tired of waiting." I said to her, "But you KNOW and FELLOWSHIP with strong Christian single men who work at this company!" Her answer was, "But they're all white, my church and my family, would never approve of that." She she took the marriage "they approved of" telling herself that he sometimes went to church and might become a Christian, and after the honeymoon period faded found herself treated poorly and cheated on by the person her people were proud of. So much for the fruits of obeying the dictates of "ethnic pride".
Just a few thoughts, let me start with a few practical applications of the "you should should your pride in your ethnicity and only marry within your kin" mindset. And then move to a theological consideration.
First, instructing your children to marry within ethnic lines inevitable communicates strong disapproval for failing to do so, and a sense that the people outside of our ethnicity no matter how good a Christian they might be are in some sense not quite as good. Non-discriminatory ethnic pride, while a nice idea just doesn't occur in a fallen world. Indeed to favor one thing or person over another is to discriminate between them. If we apply the teaching to the bible, it makes Miriam and Aaron right in some sense to disapprove not only of Moses' marriage to the Cushite (Ethiopian) but also to Zipporah. It also would have meant the townsfolk and kin of Ruth, far from blessing her, would have strongly disapproved of Boaz's decision to marry her and would have encouraged him instead to choose an eligible female from good Jewish stock. Indeed, she would have been an unsuitable marriage partner for any of the men of Bethlehem. Naomi would have had to answer her speech with something along the lines of, "Well that's sweet honey, but the my people/your people thing isn't going to work out. We Jews have a certain ethnic pride and don't approve of marriage and such to Moabites. So much for being an ancestor of Jesus, or even being fully integrated into Jewish society. Actually, the example itself is moot, as Boaz wouldn't have existed. His father Salmon, being properly instructed by his parents, would have known Rahab would have been an unsuitable wife as well. So that union wouldn't have taken place.
Also, trying to instill a sense of absolute fellowship, so that your children eagerly play with, eat with, have sleep-overs with, and do everything with Christian children from other ethnic backgrounds and then telling them you should not court, date, or marry them will inevitably break down. Show them they are one in Christ and let them live that out, and they will realize that their fellow Christians are suitable marriage partners regardless of skin color, accent, or eye shape. The only way you'll manage to keep the "we don't marry them" barrier up in the modern world, is if you eliminate or sharply limit their access to ethnically different Christian children and do all you can to instill a sense that ethnicity comes first and Christianity second.
Also, theologically the ethnic pride argument undermines the essential oneness of the Covenant community, it forgets that we are sojourners and pilgrims here on earth, that our citizenship is in heaven, not a particular earthly country, and that the real division is between believers and unbelievers. For instance, in reminding Christians that they were sojourners "just passing through" earth on the way to heaven, Peter states:
"having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation."
Those, "gentiles" would have been their fellow countrymen, and yet he separates Christians from them. The church is the primary bond.
To see proof that we really are one in every sense with our fellow believers, regardless of ethnicity, just read the words of Paul in Ephesians 2:11-22. The middle wall of separation is gone, God has built one man from the two, they were aliens, but now they are fellow citizens of the same country and one holy temple without gaps, dividing walls, and separations:
Frankly, also I'd say in our country, finding a strong, godly, orthodox Christian mate is hard enough. Further limiting that dwindling field for the sake of racial pride is just silly. Would you really rather your child married a a marginally pious antinomian pentecostal because they were American Caucasian than a strong godly Reformed Asian? I know I wouldn't.
Personally, I had the heartbreaking experience of watching a beautiful sister in Christ marry an unbelieving State Trooper, because her Christian mother liked him, knew his family, and because as she put it, "I just haven't met any strong Christian black men and I'm tired of waiting." I said to her, "But you KNOW and FELLOWSHIP with strong Christian single men who work at this company!" Her answer was, "But they're all white, my church and my family, would never approve of that." She she took the marriage "they approved of" telling herself that he sometimes went to church and might become a Christian, and after the honeymoon period faded found herself treated poorly and cheated on by the person her people were proud of. So much for the fruits of obeying the dictates of "ethnic pride".
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Thomas2007
Puritan Board Sophomore
I've got to prepare for my lesson tomorrow evening - it will take me the rest of the day and evening, so I'll have to take this up and discuss it next week.
Anton Bruckner
Puritan Board Professor
its the ethnic food that did him in. try some dhall, and some lamb curry
Gloria
Puritan Board Sophomore
Ohhh, this'll be a fun thread to watch... especially as a "miscegenator" myself.
I thought and said the sammmmmme thing although I'm not a "miscegenator."
Anton Bruckner
Puritan Board Professor
as long as a christian is not marrying an unbeliever we should all mind our own business and wish them a prosperous future.
Reformed Covenanter
Cancelled Commissioner
Precisely; the only absolute requirement is that people marry "in the Lord", other things are matters of prudence.
raekwon
Puritan Board Junior
Sounds like a great reason to start looking elsewhere!
Zenas
Snow Miser
Nothing ever got solved by running away. I love the community and the people in my church. One day, I hope to be on the session and there are several men who are fairly to solidly grounded who will probably be on whether I am or not, and they would probably not frown on this type of thing either.
As a side note: My fiance' and I are both fine with adopting an Asian child and I definately want to adopt an Asian girl due to China's history for treatment of females, but I would like to be open to the idea of adopting a little black boy or girl as well or instead. She's not so hot on this issue though; not because she thinks it's wrong to do, but out of fear of the child being an outcast and difficult to marry off. There just aren't that many black Reformed men and women in the area. Almost all black folks are members of COGIC churches, which make my skin crawl and I'm not entirely sure they are churches of the Lord. She also fears they will be mocked for having white parents and rejected by white kids and black kids. I can see her point, but I'm not sensitive to the issue. My outlook is "nuts" to everyone else and if someone doesn't like it, tough. People already won't like us for serving the Lord, but should we really pile up racial tension on them? That and we'd probably cause huge problems in our church due to the above mentioned elders. What do ya'll think?
As a side note: My fiance' and I are both fine with adopting an Asian child and I definately want to adopt an Asian girl due to China's history for treatment of females, but I would like to be open to the idea of adopting a little black boy or girl as well or instead. She's not so hot on this issue though; not because she thinks it's wrong to do, but out of fear of the child being an outcast and difficult to marry off. There just aren't that many black Reformed men and women in the area. Almost all black folks are members of COGIC churches, which make my skin crawl and I'm not entirely sure they are churches of the Lord. She also fears they will be mocked for having white parents and rejected by white kids and black kids. I can see her point, but I'm not sensitive to the issue. My outlook is "nuts" to everyone else and if someone doesn't like it, tough. People already won't like us for serving the Lord, but should we really pile up racial tension on them? That and we'd probably cause huge problems in our church due to the above mentioned elders. What do ya'll think?
Josiah
Puritan Board Senior
I agree with what you said here:
When my Wife and I first started attending our church, we noticed that many of the covenant children were adopted and were of different races. We immediately noticed that they were just as normal and well adjusted as any other kids in the church from what we had seen.
I wouldnt worry much about what others will think in church. Who knows, maybe this is exactly why you are where you are
raekwon
Puritan Board Junior
My comment was at least partly tongue-in-cheek, brother. However, I do think that it bears some serious consideration if you believe (or know) that the very shepherds of your church think in such a way. How apt would you (or any of us) be to stay if you found that your elders were, say . . . FV sympathizers? This is no less of a serious issue.
kvanlaan
Puritan Board Doctor
I was the guy described earlier (dating UN-style in highschool) but married a wonderful woman of mostly German (but, of course, some native american) extraction.
This thread is of great interest to me because our children are Caucasian (biological), Chinese, and soon Ethiopian.
Think of your average TR church (in the Dutch community) and the demographic makeup - white, white, and more white. Who are my children going to marry, if more 'traditional' attitudes prevail?
Put your backs into it, folks. I am all ears.
This thread is of great interest to me because our children are Caucasian (biological), Chinese, and soon Ethiopian.
Think of your average TR church (in the Dutch community) and the demographic makeup - white, white, and more white. Who are my children going to marry, if more 'traditional' attitudes prevail?
Put your backs into it, folks. I am all ears.
kvanlaan
Puritan Board Doctor
My wife and I were just discussing this further. We know many American-born XXXXXX (insert ethnicity here) who marry within ethnic/social background. Almost all the Chinese-Americans that we know here have married Chinese-Americans. They might date white, but they marry Chinese.
The biggest concern is for our boys. It seems like marriage of a white male to an Asian woman is fairly acceptable (and even the other way around). And marriage to a black woman seems fairly acceptable too. But a black male is another issue entirely. We've heard horror stories of peoples' behaviour towards adopted Ethiopian sons of white families, attitudes that are simply unacceptable today and which evaporated into sweetness once again when the boors in question found out that the black sons were from a white family - that somehow made them 'OK'.
The biggest concern is for our boys. It seems like marriage of a white male to an Asian woman is fairly acceptable (and even the other way around). And marriage to a black woman seems fairly acceptable too. But a black male is another issue entirely. We've heard horror stories of peoples' behaviour towards adopted Ethiopian sons of white families, attitudes that are simply unacceptable today and which evaporated into sweetness once again when the boors in question found out that the black sons were from a white family - that somehow made them 'OK'.
I thought BJU's stance on inter-racial marraige stemmed somehow from Dispensationalism. Do they see inter-racial marraige as another step toward the one-world religion/culture?
There is a branch of Christian Reconstructionists called 'kinists' who claim to be Reformed Christians. They talk like Reformers. They extol Calvin. I think they practice paedocommunion. I think they are Agrarians also. I never spent enough time at their blogs to figure out where their 'kinism' comes from. I am not going to disclose the main blog site because they should not get any more attention. Also, I think their website was hacked and destroyed by some people who were angry at their seeming 'white supremecism'.
If you really want to delve into their beliefs do so at your own risk. Just google 'kinism'.
There is a branch of Christian Reconstructionists called 'kinists' who claim to be Reformed Christians. They talk like Reformers. They extol Calvin. I think they practice paedocommunion. I think they are Agrarians also. I never spent enough time at their blogs to figure out where their 'kinism' comes from. I am not going to disclose the main blog site because they should not get any more attention. Also, I think their website was hacked and destroyed by some people who were angry at their seeming 'white supremecism'.
If you really want to delve into their beliefs do so at your own risk. Just google 'kinism'.
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