Matt Maher is Roman Catholic???

[Hemustincrease]

How about Steven Curtis Chapman, Keith and Kristen Getty (who actually refused to allow the PCUSA to use their song "In Christ Alone" because the denomination wanted to change the words to fit their unorthodox view of the atonement), Christ Rice, Tripp Lee, Flame, Shai Linne, Timothy Brindle, Cross Movement, Lacrae, etc...?

"In July 2012, the Gettys joined Townend and Roman Catholic Matt Maher on NewsongCafe on WorshipTogether.com. They played and discussed “The Power of the Cross,” which was co-written by Getty-Townend. The 10-minute program promoted ecumenical unity, with Maher/Townend/Getty entirely one in the spirit through the music. Major doctrinal differences are so meaningless that they are not even mentioned. Spiritual abominations such as papal supremacy, the mass, infant baptism, baptismal regeneration, and Mariolatry were entirely ignored. Jude 3 was despised and Romans 16:17 completely disobeyed for the sake of building the one-world church through contemporary Christian music."

I’m keeping well clear of anything which tends towards promoting the kind of ‘unity’ our Lord abhors. There is no ‘baby’ to throw out so far as CCM is concerned (in my opinion). There is only mucky bathwater.

 

[Hamalas]

How about Steven Curtis Chapman, Keith and Kristen Getty (who actually refused to allow the PCUSA to use their song "In Christ Alone" because the denomination wanted to change the words to fit their unorthodox view of the atonement), Christ Rice, Tripp Lee, Flame, Shai Linne, Timothy Brindle, Cross Movement, Lacrae, etc...?

"In July 2012, the Gettys joined Townend and Roman Catholic Matt Maher on NewsongCafe on WorshipTogether.com. They played and discussed “The Power of the Cross,” which was co-written by Getty-Townend. The 10-minute program promoted ecumenical unity, with Maher/Townend/Getty entirely one in the spirit through the music. Major doctrinal differences are so meaningless that they are not even mentioned. Spiritual abominations such as papal supremacy, the mass, infant baptism, baptismal regeneration, and Mariolatry were entirely ignored. Jude 3 was despised and Romans 16:17 completely disobeyed for the sake of building the one-world church through contemporary Christian music."

I’m keeping well clear of anything which tends towards promoting the kind of ‘unity’ our Lord abhors. There is no ‘baby’ to throw out so far as CCM is concerned (in my opinion). There is only mucky bathwater.

Jo, I'm not interested in being the advocate for CCM as a movement or for CCM artists individually. However, the teaching of Scripture require a higher standard of proof than the "guilt-by-association" and "genetic fallacy" arguments I'm reading here. If there are particular artists who need to be called out, by all means lets do so. If the movement as a whole has tendencies or a history that should be of concern as Jeri so rightly pointed out, then let's talk about that! But to make a blanket statement condemning all CCM artists as closet-Roman-Catholic-Charismatic-Universalists is neither fair nor wise. The ruminations of the fundamentalist Baptist Bob Jones Brother Cloud aside, I think a more nuanced and even handed approach is required.

Also, you picked one couple off of my list. What of the other artists I mentioned? Are they all closet papists as well? I also wonder what "joining hands with so and so" actually means. If we want to talk about statements of doctrine then by all means lets address that. But if joining hands simply means attending the same conference, working with, or having a conversation with Roman Catholics, Charismatics etc... then there are many more godly Pastors and theologians who must be condemned. I guess John Piper should be viewed as a false teacher because he *gasp* has Charismatic friends. I suppose we should excommunicate our brother on the PB who recently preached at a liberal Episcopalian service as a means of proclaiming the gospel in a dark place.

I'm not trying to be argumentative or to paint you in a dark light. But I do want to suggest that taking these views to their logical conclusions brings us someplace we don't want to go. Just a few thoughts.

 

[Rom]

Not to mention that the quote in question calls "infant baptism" a "Spiritual abomination", so you might as well lump us Presbyterians into outer darkness as well

Jo, do you cast these stones at people who sing or listen to Hymns? If so, you may want to check out some of the writers of those hymns and their theology as well. You may be shocked.

 

[Hemustincrease]

But to make a blanket statement condemning all CCM artists as closet-Roman-Catholic-Charismatic-Universalists is neither fair nor wise.

Ben, I believe I have already answered Rom and Joshua with regards to this.

As to being ‘even handed’........what exactly do you mean by that? If something is heavily weighted in one direction, what would you suggest I put on the scales to even it all out a bit?

All the other artists you mentioned, along with any other you could bring up, can be easily researched by us all. It isn’t without significance that I am yet to come across a website of any CCM band/artist etc which plainly presents the Gospel and/or clearly stands against false teaching. I could be a JW, a Catholic, a Mormon, a Charismatic or even a Muslim and visit their sites without feeling any or much offense. Perhaps the response to that would be “well, we don’t all present the Gospel in our workplaces etc, so why should they?” or something similar. However, they are claiming to be working ‘for Christ’ and ‘for the Gospel’ so surely they must make it very, very clear exactly what they believe and what ‘Gospel’ and which ‘Christ’ it is they are serving!

 

[Hemustincrease]

Jo, do you cast these stones at people who sing or listen to Hymns? If so, you may want to check out some of the writers of those hymns and their theology as well. You may be shocked.

Ouch!

I don’t believe I have cast any stones in this thread and to be honest, I find your comment a tad hurtful.

This thread is about CCM, Matt Maher in particular. I am not ignorant with regards to the theology of hymn writers outside of CCM, however that is not up for discussion on this thread.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

Jo, you are stout-hearted and I appreciate it, and know these brothers do too! I didn't mean to stir things up again, if I did. It is fair to point to the history of the CCM movement, look at the doctrine and theology of each writer and artist (both within and without CCM), and ponder together what it all means in the light of God's prescriptive word. I'm learning to care about these things while at the same time taking care to make the purity of the church and the church's singing together a matter of prayer, and to trust the great Head of the church with it. And sometimes comment. David Cloud may not be the best resource to point people to—he's good at pointing out problems with CCM, but I don't think he has biblical solutions. I know the Lord, through his providential dealings and through the prayers and efforts and willingness of his people, will sort it all out. I do understand and share the concerns you've mentioned. I do believe, as many others have said, that music has been instrumental (historically) in periods of downgrade in the church.

 

[Hemustincrease]

Jo, you are stout-hearted and I appreciate it, and know these brothers do too! I didn't mean to stir things up again, if I did. It is fair to point to the history of the CCM movement, look at the doctrine and theology of each writer and artist (both within and without CCM), and ponder together what it all means in the light of God's prescriptive word. I'm learning to care about these things while at the same time taking care to make the purity of the church and the church's singing together a matter of prayer, and to trust the great Head of the church with it. And sometimes comment. David Cloud may not be the best resource to point people to—he's good at pointing out problems with CCM, but I don't think he has biblical solutions. I know the Lord, through his providential dealings and through the prayers and efforts and willingness of his people, will sort it all out. I do understand and share the concerns you've mentioned. I do believe, as many others have said, that music has been instrumental (historically) in periods of downgrade in the church.

I agree with you, insofar as David Cloud is concerned, but he appears to be the only cut and pastable resource out there on this subject (that I have found at any rate). He has so thoroughly examined the matter and documented those findings (of which I find very little to disagree with him on) that he has become somewhat of a ‘go to’ resource for me. Reformed men have of course spoken/written about CCM, but I have so far found that they either point their readers to David Cloud for the specifics (whilst noting his lack of Calvinistic beliefs) or speak far more generally, perhaps with an expectation that their readers truly ought to be able to discern the difference between the holy and the profane without them needing to spell it out for them. I’m just surmising of course.

The history of the movement is indeed essential to understand. I absolutely agree with that. Anything ‘false’ needs to be uprooted rather than pruned to look pretty and if we don’t know the history, we cannot really expect to be able to properly discern the present fruit of it. Examining the doctrine and theology of each artist however, is somewhat easier said than done. Websites certainly don’t provide answers to even the most basic questions and examining lyrics alone cannot count as an examination of ‘fruit’ which is how our Lord said we would “know them”. There is one thing to be said in defense of David Cloud.........nobody leaves his website left wondering what it is he actually believes.

 

[Ken_lamb]

Reformed Rap Artist Shai Linne and Scott Anioli have been engaging in a musical analysis and debate of what constitutes God honoring music. I have found it both a little polarizing but also informative. There are moments when I think they are starting to come together in mutual understanding and then others when I think it sounds redundant like a broken record. If you at all interested, you might at least appreciate the analysis.
http://religiousaffections.org/arti...t-christian-rap-with-shai-linne-introduction/

The connectivity of links is weird but here are the other posts.

http://religiousaffections.org/?s=Shai+Linne&submit=Search

 

[Jeri Tanner]

Reformed Rap Artist Shai Linne and Scott Anioli have been engaging in a musical analysis and debate of what constitutes God honoring music. I have found it both a little polarizing but also informative. There are moments when I think they are starting to come together in mutual understanding and then others when I think it sounds redundant like a broken record. If you at all interested, you might at least appreciate the analysis.
Discussion about Christian rap with Shai Linne: Introduction | Conservative Christianity, Worship, Culture, Aesthetics – Religious Affections Ministries

The connectivity of links is weird but here are the other posts.

Search: Shai Linne | Conservative Christianity, Worship, Culture, Aesthetics – Religious Affections Ministries

Yes, I saw the debates publicized but have never had the mental toughness to read them; I believe to do so might bring on anxiety. I appreciate both men and actually appreciate Shai Linne's music. I never understood whether their debate concerned what is appropriate for congregational singing, or if it concerned the appropriateness of the rap genre in general.

 

[Ken_lamb]

That's a very good point. I don't know that Shai Linne makes any attempt to lead worship with his music on Sunday, though from Scott's initial comments that sparked the debate, I understood him to be speaking broadly of music in general, not just worship music.

 

[Free Christian]

One thing that once concerned me with peoples songs they had written was once in a church I was attending I found out that the church was paying royalties for the singing, using the particular song or songs, in their church. They were paying yearly royalties for the use of them. Paying to sing a song to God did not sit right me. Meaning that some of my offerings were being used for that. How widespread this is I wonder?

 

[JML]

One thing that once concerned me with peoples songs they had written was once in a church I was attending I found out that the church was paying royalties for the singing, using the particular song or songs, in their church. They were paying yearly royalties for the use of them. Paying to sing a song to God did not sit right me. Meaning that some of my offerings were being used for that. How widespread this is I wonder?

Very common here in the States. It is called Christian Copyright Licensing International (CCLI). Churches that sing modern CCM music are required to pay for it.

 

[Free Christian]

Paying to worship God. Now I understand paying to rent a hall or such, but in doing so one could rent it for anything. Paying for the power used etc.
But to charge someone for singing your song when in worship to God! "Oh, excuse me you guys sing a song I wrote when you worship God, money please!"

 

[Ken_lamb]

Yeah, the commercial aspect of Christian worship is bothersome to me as well.

 

[Hamalas]

Obviously, commercialization is a massive problem (especially here in the States) but to be fair we pay for Psalters and Hymnals as well. Receiving payment for lawful work done to the glory of God is no bad thing. Imagine if I criticized Carl Trueman, R.C. Sproul, or Joel Beeke because they charged me money to learn about God by reading their books or attending a conference.

 

[Hamalas]

But to make a blanket statement condemning all CCM artists as closet-Roman-Catholic-Charismatic-Universalists is neither fair nor wise.

Ben, I believe I have already answered Rom and Joshua with regards to this.

Jo, I apologize. I had not seen that post until I went back and looked.

If you're only arguing that CCM rests on a cracked foundation and that Christians should be wary of what they hear from CCM artists then you and I are in the same boat. The only noticeable exception I've found to that rule would be among Christian Hip-Hop artists many of whom are doctrinally sound and explicitly Calvinistic. But in many ways they stand in a different culture to the typical CCM artist. There's more I could say about these things but it's late here and I should head to bed. Blessings!

 

[Ephrata]

How about Steven Curtis Chapman, Keith and Kristen Getty (who actually refused to allow the PCUSA to use their song "In Christ Alone" because the denomination wanted to change the words to fit their unorthodox view of the atonement), Christ Rice, Tripp Lee, Flame, Shai Linne, Timothy Brindle, Cross Movement, Lacrae, etc...?

I don't listen to hardly any CCM anymore either (and don't really consider myself a friend to the movement per se) but the claims made above are overstating the case. Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater or use our own anecdotal observations to harm the reputation of others.

Wait, the PCUSA wanted to change the lyrics to "In Christ Alone"? Maybe it's the late hour, but that's really kind of funny. What did they want to change it to?

(Not that there's anything funny about false or hollow doctrine. It's simply that that's one of the best modern songs sung in churches today, In my humble opinion, both musically and lyrically, and changing it just seems ridiculous.)

 

[Hamalas]

How about Steven Curtis Chapman, Keith and Kristen Getty (who actually refused to allow the PCUSA to use their song "In Christ Alone" because the denomination wanted to change the words to fit their unorthodox view of the atonement), Christ Rice, Tripp Lee, Flame, Shai Linne, Timothy Brindle, Cross Movement, Lacrae, etc...?

I don't listen to hardly any CCM anymore either (and don't really consider myself a friend to the movement per se) but the claims made above are overstating the case. Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater or use our own anecdotal observations to harm the reputation of others.

Wait, the PCUSA wanted to change the lyrics to "In Christ Alone"? Maybe it's the late hour, but that's really kind of funny. What did they want to change it to?

(Not that there's anything funny about false or hollow doctrine. It's simply that that's one of the best modern songs sung in churches today, In my humble opinion, both musically and lyrically, and changing it just seems ridiculous.)

They wanted to change the words, "And on that cross where Jesus died, the wrath of God was satisfied" to say, "And on that cross where Jesus died, the love of God was magnified". Basically they aren't comfortable with Anselm's satisfaction theory of the atonement (and often reject penal substitution) they wanted to replace it with Abelard's view to emphasize the love of God. (If that didn't make much sense you can read this short piece: Theories of the Atonement by Leon Morris). It was pretty crazy, but I'm glad the Getty's stood firm.

 

[Ephrata]

How about Steven Curtis Chapman, Keith and Kristen Getty (who actually refused to allow the PCUSA to use their song "In Christ Alone" because the denomination wanted to change the words to fit their unorthodox view of the atonement), Christ Rice, Tripp Lee, Flame, Shai Linne, Timothy Brindle, Cross Movement, Lacrae, etc...?

I don't listen to hardly any CCM anymore either (and don't really consider myself a friend to the movement per se) but the claims made above are overstating the case. Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater or use our own anecdotal observations to harm the reputation of others.

Wait, the PCUSA wanted to change the lyrics to "In Christ Alone"? Maybe it's the late hour, but that's really kind of funny. What did they want to change it to?

(Not that there's anything funny about false or hollow doctrine. It's simply that that's one of the best modern songs sung in churches today, In my humble opinion, both musically and lyrically, and changing it just seems ridiculous.)

They wanted to change the words, "And on that cross where Jesus died, the wrath of God was satisfied" to say, "And on that cross where Jesus died, the love of God was magnified". Basically they aren't comfortable with Anselm's satisfaction theory of the atonement (and often reject penal substitution) they wanted to replace it with Abelard's view to emphasize the love of God. (If that didn't make much sense you can read this short piece: Theories of the Atonement by Leon Morris). It was pretty crazy, but I'm glad the Getty's stood firm.

Yeah, that's one way to make the Gospel anemic. Thank God He kept them strong on the issue. Thanks for the article-- it helped clarify some other views, as well.

 

[TylerRay]

One of my favorite new songs out there is one by Matt Maher entitled "Lord, I Need You".

In case you are not familiar with it here are the words:
Lord, I come, I confess
Bowing here I find my rest
Without You I fall apart
You're the One that guides my heart

Lord, I need You, oh, I need You
Every hour I need You
My one defense, my righteousness
Oh God, how I need You

Where sin runs deep Your grace is more
Where grace is found is where You are
And where You are, Lord, I am free
Holiness is Christ in me

Lord, I need You, oh, I need You
Every hour I need You
My one defense, my righteousness
Oh God, how I need You

Teach my song to rise to You
When temptation comes my way
And when I cannot stand I'll fall on You
Jesus, You're my hope and stay

Lord, I need You, oh, I need You
Every hour I need You
My one defense, my righteousness
Oh God, how I need You

You're my one defense, my righteousness
Oh God, how I need You
My one defense, my righteousness
Oh God, how I need You

So I was shocked to find out that Matt Maher is a Roman Catholic. This does not seem like Roman Catholic doctrine to me. I think this sounds a lot like reformed doctrine. While Roman doctrine is not becoming more reformed or evangelical do you think that some individual Roman Catholics are and if so why stay Roman Catholic?

For His Glory-
Matthew

The Roman Catholic Church has always used syncretism to win proselytes. In the past, they incorporated pagan practices into their worship to win pagans. Today (in the US, etc.) they are using CCM, new translations of the Bible based on a critical text, bible studies, youth groups, and the like to win broadly evangelical professors.

 

[JSauer]

Matt Maher is a Roman Catholic?! That's disappointing. I saw his song listed along with highly orthodox bands like Casting Crowns and Third Day in the Heaven Is For Real soundtrack at Barnes & Noble and now I have lost faith in contemporary Christian music.

(This post is meant to be read in an extremely sarcastic voice)

 

[Free Christian]

Obviously, commercialization is a massive problem (especially here in the States) but to be fair we pay for Psalters and Hymnals as well. Receiving payment for lawful work done to the glory of God is no bad thing. Imagine if I criticized Carl Trueman, R.C. Sproul, or Joel Beeke because they charged me money to learn about God by reading their books or attending a conference.

Hello Ben. Do you think that buying a book to read is the same as paying not only for the book but also for each time you read it out loud? Such as is done with these songs. The song book is bought and payed for but that is not enough, a yearly payment is now required for the singing of the songs they contain!
Do you pay a fee each time you read from R.C Sproul? Or each time you read from the Bible you payed for? Yes the Psalm books I sing from were brought, why not they had to be printed, but I do not have to pay a yearly fee to sing them! Nor a fee to read my Bible! The comparison you made doesn't fit.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

Matt Maher is a Roman Catholic?! That's disappointing. I saw his song listed along with highly orthodox bands like Casting Crowns and Third Day in the Heaven Is For Real soundtrack at Barnes & Noble and now I have lost faith in contemporary Christian music.

(This post is meant to be read in an extremely sarcastic voice)

Oh, dear, I thought you were kidding, but... you were not.