Marriage in Economic Recession

[Hebrew Student]

Hey Everyone!

There has been something heavily on my mind recently that I thought it might be good to get out in writing, and discuss. It was rekindled by the recent controversy over the national debt, and the thread "Incentive to marry." It was difficult to know whether to post this in the "family" section, or in a section dealing with economics, so, I guess the thread can be moved around if it is not appropriate here.

We all know that the economy stinks right now, and that it will only get worse before it gets better. I have been wondering what this might do to singles and marriage. For example, someone graduates with a masters or Phd, and has $100,000.00 worth of debt. They are going to be paying around $1,000.00 a month on loans. However, they are having difficulty finding work, and, simply because of the fact that they cannot find work, they end up defaulting on their loans. Bankruptcy is no way out because student loans cannot be discharged due to bankruptcy.

However, many people in such a situation are in their late twenties, and would like to be married. The problem is that they cannot marry, because they could never afford to take care of a spouse and [possibly] children. This would especially affect the men, as most of the jobs that have been lost in this economic mess are jobs that are dominated by men.

This creates a devastating problem. Even though men and women are not going to be able to marry, the problem is that God created romantic love between a man and a woman. It is normal and very good according to the book of Genesis. However, what will happen when men and women cannot express their feelings for one another, simply because of the fact that they cannot afford it? Consider, for example, the fact that, if you are in the kind of economic problems described above, you will not even be able to afford to ask someone out on a date. You will most likely still be living with your parents, which is even more unattractive. Keep in mind, at this point we are not even talking about marriage; we are talking about simply getting a relationship off the ground!

However, even marriage becomes a problem. Let us say that such a person *does* end up finding a job, and let us say that they make around $30,000.00 a year. Now, they will only make $18,000.00 a year, because they have to pay off loans. How will they be able to get married and support a spouse and [possibly] children on that salary?

The point is that the high cost of education, and the bad economy could create a deadly combination that may end up making marriage economically impossible. However, that would have devastating consequences, as men and women were made to be attracted to one another. What happens when a couple is interested in one another, and they know that they could never afford to marry? You can say that you should try to keep them apart so that they are not tempted, but the problem is that this attraction is normal and natural, and fighting it is fighting against something that is normal and natural. Eventually, this could very dangerously lead to fornication, or worse, children who are born from fornication, and no one who can afford to take care of them.

The only other solution I have heard is that families might start living two or three generations together. The problem with this is simply age. Eventually, the older members of the family are not going to be able to work simply because their bodies are not what they were when they were younger. If this happens, the income that those people produce will not be there.

It is a problem that is all too real, as I have seen it affect many people in my circles, and it would be interesting to hear some thoughts on the matter.

God Bless,
Adam

 

[Wayne]

First, easiest solution is "Don't incur $100,000 in debt."

In the past, school loans of that caliber were incurred mostly by med and law students and their future earnings made repayment feasible.

I think you'll find the general wisdom offered here on the PB will be against incurring debt, and especially debt of that stature, particularly if your
intended profession is in academia. If you intend to go into the ministry, then that much debt becomes singularly laughable. (and no offense intended)

 

[Hebrew Student]

Wayne,

That is great in theory [and I agree], but it is not the current state of affairs. The vast majority of people I know who get advanced degrees do have that kind of debt, and that is the problem.

You are correct that it used to be only medical students and law students that had that kind of debt, but no more. The cost of college has gone up so much since then, and, when most of the people my age entered school, there were very few other options available.

Thankfully, there are no online programs that can help you get bachelors degrees for cheap, but they are too little too late to help people already caught in this situation.

God Bless,
Adam

 

[Sviata Nich]

The point is that the high cost of education, and the bad economy could create a deadly combination that may end up making marriage economically impossible....
The only other solution I have heard is that families might start living two or three generations together.The problem with this is simply age. Eventually, the older members of the family are not going to be able to work simply because their bodies are not what they were when they were younger. If this happens, the income that those people produce will not be there.

High debt and hard economic times might force people do abandon some of the West's Hollywood wedding ideas and be more practical. If people don't spend $5,000 dollars on their wedding day, another $5,000 on their honeymoon, and then expect cars, lavish vacations, and a house with a year or two of being married, I don't think it would be economically impossible. If people really love one another and want to honour God, they will find a way to make it work (or perhaps the better way to say that would be God will find a way to make it work).

Two or three generations living together is common around my neighborhood among immigrants and I don't think there's any real downside. A household could potentially have 2-4 incomes, AND does not have to pay for nursing/retirement homes or daycare. And more importantly, the families often seem to be closer to one another than the "traditional" Canadian families in the neighborhood.

 

[Mushroom]

If one sells himself into indentured servitude, why would he be surprised to find himself living the life of a slave?

You pays your money and you takes your choice.

 

[Skyler]

I would tend to agree with the aforementioned sentiments about a debt load of that magnitude.

I'd also like to point out that although marriage does impose additional expenses, having a committed partner who is willing to work with you in raising you out of the financial hole you've dug, help manage your household wisely, etc., can multiply your efforts far beyond what you could do on your own. I'm not married, so take my perspective with a grain of salt, but it seems to me that as a general rule you're better off with a trustworthy helpmeet than without one.

Also, 97% of millionaires are married.

Just a thought.

 

[Hebrew Student]

Brad,

Actually, indentured servitude would be preferable to what we have. The problem is that there is no work, period. When you have a collapsing economy, it is not a matter of not *wanting* to work, but not being *able* to work.

In fact, that was one of the major points of the legal system of indentured servitude in the Hebrew Bible. It provided a means by which family life could continue, even in the face of debt. Slaves could still get married, and have a family, and yet, still have a means to take care of their debt.

The problem is, what we have now is a situation where, because of the impersonal nature of the system, there is very little chance for a person to get work to pay off his debt.

Also, no one is *surprised* at this. I think a lot of people could see it coming with the huge cost of education, and the inability for these debts to be expunged by bankruptcy. The issue I am raising is how is one to deal with all of this when it is such a harsh reality.

God Bless,
Adam

 

[Skyler]

I'd also like to point out that the economic recession doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be stuck in a low-paying job. If you're a hard worker and self-disciplined--things that tend to be improved by marriage, incidentally--there are lots of opportunities out there with great income potential. Very few people are, so companies out there practically salivate when they run across someone who is.

 

[Hebrew Student]

Sviata Nich and Skyler,

Your posts are interesting. First, I didn't think about the fact that there is no necessity for social security and welfare as people get old, and so, money can be saved in the long run.

Secondly, it is helpful to think of marriage as a way to help people out of their financial hole. Of course, this is going to mean that people are going to have to make sacrifices. In a recession, the likelihood that you are going to marry a millionaire is going to be very low, and the likelihood that you are going to marry someone without financial difficulty even lower.

Still, I think this might end up being a blessing in disguise. It will force us to sacrifice some of the things we want, and really focus on what we can do for God and others. In that sense, it might do our self-centered American culture some good.

Also, I think the big thing right now is for people to get a chance. I know I am almost done with my Masters degree, and trying to find people to give you a chance in teaching or research is very tough. They want to go with people who have the most experience, or who have the Phd. There are times when getting a chance in this economy is rough, and, if economists are right, will become even rougher.

God Bless,
Adam

 

[Skyler]

The problem is, what we have now is a situation where, because of the impersonal nature of the system, there is very little chance for a person to get work to pay off his debt.

Honestly, I think that's more a perception created by the media. The problem isn't a shortage of jobs so much as it is a shortage of good workers. America is full of people who are half-hearted workers, who "do their time" and then run when Friday's over. Those kind of workers are a drain on any company. It's a wonder they can manage to stay afloat, let alone do enough business to hire more people! What companies need are workers who work hard, are self-disciplined, and committed to the success of the company. Those kind of people are extraordinarily rare, and companies practically salivate when they find one.

---------- Post added at 03:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:36 PM ----------

Oh, and I wasn't saying you marry a millionaire! I was saying the people who become millionaires are almost inevitably married, because there's something about that close relationship that's necessary for that kind of success.

 

[TimV]

What happens when a couple is interested in one another, and they know that they could never afford to marry?

That's a summation of your argument, and the "death in the pot" (the poison gourd, remember?)

Can God make a rock too heavy for Himself to move? There is no answer, since the very question is sinful.

Just do it. If you've found a girl that you love and who loves you just do it. Seedtime and harvest will continue to the end.

My ex walked out on us leaving me with 6 kids at home. We were all in construction, and this was 3 years ago when the construction bubble burst. Two are now married, and all are doing well. I've been making more than ever in my life.

So don't let the doom and gloomers get you down. At my age (I guess that's the reason, or that I'm too picky) I sometimes despair that I'll ever find a woman that I love and who loves me. I'm currently blessed with a lady that is showing interest, but I'll tell you that as soon as that combo occurs, specifically that I want her and she wants me, I'm married.

I had seven kids, and even in construction I wouldn't have it any other way. It will work. It's worked for 6,000 years, and there's nothing new under the sun. Nothing. People will be marrying and giving in marriage until the end, just like they'll be harvesting.

 

[Hebrew Student]

Skyler,

No, what I am saying is that singles today tend to want someone who, not only who is a strong Christian that are attracted to, but has a perfect financial record, is a millionare, etc. That simply is unsustainable in a bad economy; it is apple pie in the sky by and by.

Also, I think what I meant by an impersonal system is who is going to give you a chance in a bad economy. When someone looks at your work history, and they see at most only minor part time jobs that you had to get your way through college, and you don't have any experience teaching yet because you just got out of college with a masters or Phd, it causes problems. My sister is a wonderful graphic designer, and she even has a two year degree in web design as well. She keeps getting turned down because she doesn't have experience. So, you need experience to get a job, and a job to get experience.

I agree, once you are in, work hard, and a company should value that. The problem is waiting for doors to open when you have debt hanging over you.

God Bless,
Adam

 

[py3ak]

Also, I think what I meant by an impersonal system is who is going to give you a chance in a bad economy. When someone looks at your work history, and they see at most only minor part time jobs that you had to get your way through college, and you don't have any experience teaching yet because you just got out of college with a masters or Phd, it causes problems. My sister is a wonderful graphic designer, and she even has a two year degree in web design as well. She keeps getting turned down because she doesn't have experience. So, you need experience to get a job, and a job to get experience.

The solution to this is often temp jobs or internships. Such jobs may not do much to alleviate financial pain right away; but then again, not working at all does even less. Here is an article that compiles some different stories of how people got gainful employment after long periods out of work. It emerges that there are no easy ways, but there are ways.

 

[Hebrew Student]

TimV,

That is something I have been thinking about. Not only the fact that singles are going to have to go back to the bear bones, and not seek out mister or miss perfect, but I have had many people at Trinity tell me that they are getting married, and just trusting in God to provide a means for them. I guess that what I am seeing is that the issue might be more psychological then rational. We may not be able to come up with all the answers arithmetically, but there are times when trust in God's design is preferable to arithmetic certainty.

God Bless,
Adam

 

[Edward]

Too many folks have bought into the myths of higher education. There are always going to be clogged drains and short circuits. The idea that someone who partied through 5 years at 'state U' has more status than someone who spent a year in a vocational program and a couple of more in an apprenticeship is a false one.

The higher education bubble may be getting ready to pop.

 

[TimV]

We may not be able to come up with all the answers arithmetically, but there are times when trust in God's design is preferable to arithmetic certainty.

I've always thought you wise for your age, and that proves it.

 

[Skyler]

Yeah... I see what you're saying.

I guess I have trouble relating personally, because I did tutoring and lab assisting through college and didn't have any trouble getting into teaching. (That was electrical engineering technology, though, and I didn't end up staying there.) But let me just say this--one thing I've picked up from marketing is that most people say "no" four times before they say "yes". Don't be afraid to call people in the college/university in question several times after they refuse you. (Maybe not right after they hang up, but don't wait for months.) Be persistent, keep asking; sooner or later, they'll clue in to your persistence and hire you.

 

[Andres]

Just do it. If you've found a girl that you love and who loves you just do it. Seedtime and harvest will continue to the end.

I'm with Tim here. God is our provider. Anybody who looks to anything else for provision will be disappointed. My wife and I have lots of student loan debt. But I don't care. Aside from Christ, she and my soon to be born child are my everything. I'd work 3 minimum wage jobs if that's what it took to support my family. And we plan on having several more kids, Lord willing. I anticipate times being tight, but oh well. God will meet all our needs and that's sufficient for me.

 

[Hebrew Student]

py3ak,

Thanks, I will take a look at that link.

Skyler,

Yes, that is what many people have said. I suppose for me personally, what is difficult is almost being done with my masters program, knowing the economy is collapsing, and that I have seen very few teaching jobs for someone in my position. I have a friend who is working on his doctorate in Semitics at Trinity, and he told me that it is difficult to tell. Some people with masters degrees have good jobs, and some people with doctorates and loads of debt are looking for work. I have resorted to applying to department stores, and places like Taco Bell. It is a very humbling experience, as to have four years of graduate education, and not be able to do anything better than that is disheartening.

However, you are certainly right that persistence is a virtue. I think maybe one of the things that people who are in our position may need in the coming months is encouragement in exactly that regard.

God Bless,
Adam

 

[Scott1]

A few comments to the many thoughts here, below:

Hey Everyone!

There has been something heavily on my mind recently that I thought it might be good to get out in writing, and discuss. It was rekindled by the recent controversy over the national debt, and the thread "Incentive to marry." It was difficult to know whether to post this in the "family" section, or in a section dealing with economics, so, I guess the thread can be moved around if it is not appropriate here.

We all know that the economy stinks right now, and that it will only get worse before it gets better. I have been wondering what this might do to singles and marriage. For example, someone graduates with a masters or Phd, and has $100,000.00 worth of debt. They are going to be paying around $1,000.00 a month on loans. However, they are having difficulty finding work, and, simply because of the fact that they cannot find work, they end up defaulting on their loans. Bankruptcy is no way out because student loans cannot be discharged due to bankruptcy.

The biblical implications- there is no "bankruptcy," in the Kingdom of God, you still owe the money, and must repay it. Only a comment on this pragmatic, but not biblical reasoning.

However, many people in such a situation are in their late twenties, and would like to be married. The problem is that they cannot marry, because they could never afford to take care of a spouse and [possibly] children.

I suppose there is some biblical truth here, but it's not the whole story. One "can" marry with lots of deficiencies, and, in the scheme of things the extra $1,000 a month is not even that big of one.

In one sense, many people cannot afford to have children, net economic loss, too expensive, esp. with college or if sickly,

but this is not biblical thinking.

It's not even practical thinking because there is a lot more to it.

This would especially affect the men, as most of the jobs that have been lost in this economic mess are jobs that are dominated by men.

This creates a devastating problem. Even though men and women are not going to be able to marry,

don't accept the premise at all. If there is a big war, and men have to go off to war, does it mean men (and women) can't marry. It didn't work that way in World War II (or any other war).

the problem is that God created romantic love between a man and a woman. It is normal and very good according to the book of Genesis.

Even more than that, it's the only legitimate way to continue the human race, an ordinary way to provide a holy seed, etc.

However, what will happen when men and women cannot express their feelings for one another, simply because of the fact that they cannot afford it?

Being married, I can honestly look back and say, if it is God's plan (which is the norm, not in every single case, but it is the norm), a man can't afford NOT to be married.

Consider, for example, the fact that, if you are in the kind of economic problems described above, you will not even be able to afford to ask someone out on a date.

(McDonald's has the $1 menu, and if that stops you can make it at home.

You can afford it.


You will most likely still be living with your parents, which is even more unattractive. Keep in mind, at this point we are not even talking about marriage; we are talking about simply getting a relationship off the ground!

There's a country western song that rings true:

"Love will get you through times of no money, more than
Money will get you through times of no love.

You'd be surprised what you can do in love, and surprised what you can't buy with (lots of) money.

However, even marriage becomes a problem. Let us say that such a person *does* end up finding a job, and let us say that they make around $30,000.00 a year. Now, they will only make $18,000.00 a year, because they have to pay off loans. How will they be able to get married and support a spouse and [possibly] children on that salary?

There are biblical principles involving debt, that one violates to one's own consequence.

Debt with no way to repay is really presumption on God, and w are not to presume.

The point is that the high cost of education, and the bad economy could create a deadly combination that may end up making marriage economically impossible.

Not any more impossible than a drought making food economically impossible. This linear analysis leaves out lots of factors, human being will do what they need to to survive.

However, that would have devastating consequences, as men and women were made to be attracted to one another. What happens when a couple is interested in one another, and they know that they could never afford to marry? You can say that you should try to keep them apart so that they are not tempted, but the problem is that this attraction is normal and natural, and fighting it is fighting against something that is normal and natural. Eventually, this could very dangerously lead to fornication, or worse, children who are born from fornication, and no one who can afford to take care of them.

The only other solution I have heard is that families might start living two or three generations together. The problem with this is simply age. Eventually, the older members of the family are not going to be able to work simply because their bodies are not what they were when they were younger. If this happens, the income that those people produce will not be there.

It is a problem that is all too real, as I have seen it affect many people in my circles, and it would be interesting to hear some thoughts on the matter.

God Bless,
Adam

Before untangling all the other worries listed, here's a suggestion: go find an older person who lived through the Great Depression. Ask them how they survived. Did they quit eating? Did they get married? Did everyone stay at home?

Then, approach this whole issue with an appreciation for the incredible opportunities you have in this country.

Ask God to help you live within your own means, to the end of His Honor and His Glory.

And thank God for them.

 

[Notthemama1984]

You would be surprised at how much you can do with 18 grand a year.

 

[Kim G]

If you want to get married, get married. Your spouse is an asset, not a liability.

I speak from experience. I married my husband when he was 21, living with his parents, no job, and still had two years of school left. I had just graduated and had a low-paying job and a small apartment. We had no internet or cable, only one car with minimum insurance, no health insurance, cheapest phone plan with no texting, etc. We were so careful with our money that when he graduated from school, we had no debt. It took him four months after graduation to find a job. When he started working, I quit work because I was 6 months pregnant. He made less money than I had been. Now, two years later, he still makes less than I did, and I'm 6 months pregnant with baby number two, and we bought a home five months ago. Apart from our mortgage (which is cheaper than our rent was), we have no debt because we live within our means.

I laugh when people say two people can't live on what we make. We feel financially blessed and probably have more than many people at our small church. My husband doesn't support us--God supports us. Right now, he uses my husband's hard work to do it. But God is not bound to work that way.

Marriage is awesome. A family is a blessing. No one should miss out just because of money. Being poor with someone you love is so much better than being poor alone.

Edit: I should mention that I grew up in a wealthy family. The Lord blessed my father financially. I think the Lord gave that to me as a child so I would know that money doesn't make people any happier. I'm satisfied with where I am now.

 

[Hebrew Student]

Scott1,

There are couple of thoughts I have to what you have written.

I think for most of the people I have talked to, the education *was* the means by which they were going to pay back their debt. It is much easier to have a doctorate, be an full time professor at a major university, and make $70,000.00 a year if you are going to pay back student loan debt. In fact, in talking to the generation just before me, that is exactly what most of them did-take out the loans, and then pay them back once they got their job after college. The problem is that no one foresaw the economic collapse. As I mentioned, that has made it hard even for people with doctorates to get jobs. Also, one thing that I have seen the previous generation all say is that they never dreamed that the price of education would be what it is today. Many of them speak of paying off their student loan debt in two years, and are astonished to hear the amount of time it will take to pay of some of the debt for advanced degrees today.

I think what I am finding, as we probe deeper and deeper into these things, is that the debt situation in America seems to not be problematic at the student loan level alone; it is problematic all around. I guess what I was thinking about bankruptcy is that it is ridiculous to say to one set of people with debt, "You don't have to pay it back if you can't," and at the same time say to the other set of people, "You must pay it back even if you can't." One wonders if some of our economic trouble might be cause by this kind of thinking.

Also, what I seem to be getting is a consensus here that the nature of the attraction between man and woman is such that it is something God has designed to happen, and it should not be suppressed do to a lack of understanding as to how things are going to work out economically. Hence, asking someone out or getting married should not be suppressed just because you don't know how things are going to work out.

God Bless,
Adam

 

[TimV]

Kim, you're my hero. Seriously. You kick major league butt and laugh, just like the Proverbs 31 woman.

---------- Post added at 02:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:08 PM ----------

Also, what I seem to be getting is a consensus here that the nature of the attraction between man and woman is such that it is something God has designed to happen, and it should not be suppressed do to a lack of understanding as to how things are going to work out economically. Hence, asking someone out or getting married should not be suppressed just because you don't know how things are going to work out.

Ask her, dude.

 

[Skyler]

But don't just marry anyone. If the girl you're looking at is careless with finances and has to look up "thrifty" in a dictionary, I would strongly advise against it. Look for someone who knows what it means to skimp and save to make ends meet.

 

[Scott1]

A few more comments

Scott1,

There are couple of thoughts I have to what you have written.

I think for most of the people I have talked to, the education *was* the means

Not quite really,
the education is the means to the end of gainful employment, it's the job that pays the bills- a job more likely, but not guaranteed, to have higher pay.

The Christian has no right to demand of His Creator that if he gets a P.h.D. in "interpersonal relations," and borrows $100,000 to do that, that he immediately gets a $95,000 a year job. The degree's learning may not be practically employable, let alone help that person get along better with people.

by which they were going to pay back their debt. It is much easier to have a doctorate, be an full time professor at a major university, and make $70,000.00 a year if you are going to pay back student loan debt. In fact, in talking to the generation just before me, that is exactly what most of them did-take out the loans, and then pay them back once they got their job after college.

Some worked their way through college, worked during college, and worked before college to save some money first.

The problem is that no one foresaw the economic collapse.

Get the input of someone who lived through the Great Depression, what we have experienced, so far anyway, is very, very small hardship compared to that.

As I mentioned, that has made it hard even for people with doctorates to get jobs. Also, one thing that I have seen the previous generation all say is that they never dreamed that the price of education would be what it is today.

(Guess what's driving it up- the oversupply of cheap loans, and government money- supply and demand but that's another thread)


Many of them speak of paying off their student loan debt in two years, and are astonished to hear the amount of time it will take to pay of some of the debt for advanced degrees today.

I think what I am finding, as we probe deeper and deeper into these things, is that the debt situation in America seems to not be problematic at the student loan level alone; it is problematic all around.

Yes, there always have been (and will be) deep problems when one lives beyond one's means.


I guess what I was thinking about bankruptcy is that it is ridiculous to say to one set of people with debt, "You don't have to pay it back if you can't," and at the same time say to the other set of people, "You must pay it back even if you can't." One wonders if some of our economic trouble might be cause by this kind of thinking.

Biblically, you must pay it back, even after "bankruptcy."

Also, what I seem to be getting is a consensus here that the nature of the attraction between man and woman is such that it is something God has designed to happen, and it should not be suppressed do to a lack of understanding as to how things are going to work out economically. Hence, asking someone out or getting married should not be suppressed just because you don't know how things are going to work out.

This is too analytical, Adam.

Marriage is wonderful, because God made it so.

A man in love will climb any mountain, pay any price for it.

Pray that for you and your future spouse, that you will both trust God, not "your" income, or "the economy" for that.

God Bless,
Adam

 

[Pergamum]

If you want to get married, get married. Your spouse is an asset, not a liability.

I speak from experience. I married my husband when he was 21, living with his parents, no job, and still had two years of school left. I had just graduated and had a low-paying job and a small apartment. We had no internet or cable, only one car with minimum insurance, no health insurance, cheapest phone plan with no texting, etc. We were so careful with our money that when he graduated from school, we had no debt. It took him four months after graduation to find a job. When he started working, I quit work because I was 6 months pregnant. He made less money than I had been. Now, two years later, he still makes less than I did, and I'm 6 months pregnant with baby number two, and we bought a home five months ago. Apart from our mortgage (which is cheaper than our rent was), we have no debt because we live within our means.

I laugh when people say two people can't live on what we make. We feel financially blessed and probably have more than many people at our small church. My husband doesn't support us--God supports us. Right now, he uses my husband's hard work to do it. But God is not bound to work that way.

Marriage is awesome. A family is a blessing. No one should miss out just because of money. Being poor with someone you love is so much better than being poor alone.

Edit: I should mention that I grew up in a wealthy family. The Lord blessed my father financially. I think the Lord gave that to me as a child so I would know that money doesn't make people any happier. I'm satisfied with where I am now.

AMEN.

Most Americans' "necessities" are actually conveniences.

When I graduated college I had 70 USD in my bank account only, but NO DEBT. My wife graduated nursing school with 24 K in college debt. I didn't like debt, but I liked her...ha ha...so debt repayment was our first priority.

And so we repaid this entirely our first 3 years of marriage and lived very...very cheaply (one room apartment, mattress on floor, drove a 1980 old buick car as an army officer even though privates and new enlistees were buying new, we wrapped up chicken in aluminum foil and cooked "chicken packets" with chicken and veggies by the river as we swam for dates instead of lots of restaurants. I lived on my very low 2nd LT pay even after we got promoted and our standard of living stayed fixed even though my wage increased significantly. Also, we never bought new furniture, but got them from yard sales, etc. We never used a credit card either. We used the library a lot for movies and music).

 

[LawrenceU]

Words of wisdom from my father: 'Two things that no one can every 'afford' - marriage and children.' His point? God has ordained both. He provides for both. It is our crazy Western habits that make them 'too expensive'.

 

[Grimmson]

Adam, if you don’t mind I like to say a few things to say concerning this problem. I think there are several factors that push men towards the current reality that your speaking of here Adam. The first is the sense of individualism, which separates family units. The second factor being the prolonged immaturity of men and women in their teens and twenties. The third factor being the push for a college education by family and our society. Fourth, the lack of gender roles. Fifth, later marriages and relationships. Sixth, the Church reinforcing the second and third factors.

First things first. Individualism is a major problem in the family structure and the church. There is currently a separation between the roles of one in the family and how they relate to one another. In turn placing all the stress of accomplishment on the one, instead of having in place realistic expectations and goals. In the end making it all about the individual and their wants and needs instead of looking beyond one’s self. Thus, cultivating selfishness that reinforces immaturity and a negative hardened outlook on people and life later on in their own life. The outcome producing a lack of care on children and needed care for parents later on in life. It also limits the accountability towards one another in the family relationship, which in turn cultivates the ground of divorce and continued singleness (even though the desires in that single person for a prolonged relationship exist. There is absent the idea of focusing the individual within the family structure and bring together of families to create a new family; instead the focus is bringing together two individuals for the creation of such. In this individual there is no trying by the family on what is best for the family in the long term, just what is good for the now for the one. Therefore, there must be a reversal on focus on the self and towards what is best for the overall family.

The second is the feeding of the immaturity towards teens and young adults. They need to be taught how to care for kids, both young men and women need to learn to change diapers. Also they need to learn how to cook and engage in household chores. Money earned should not been seen as just their money, but to be given as an offering towards God and used for their good of the family, instead of the focus on one’s self. Relationships should be supervised by the opposite sex by parties of the households for accountability, with respected household roles respected. Kids are not just to learn byreading their Bible and going to school, but also learning (in the case of men), household repair, soil care, automotive repair, fighting, hunting, and survival skills. Women, likewise, have a set of roles that they should learn. And if the two parties are having trouble control, these desires then they need to get married. If that means a 16 year old needs to work full time and live in his parent’s home then so be it. Visions of Disney Princess and Jackass pranks, along with the urban dream, must be thrown out the window; but instead replaced with the old hard truth of the world and relationships. I know people today would not approve of a 16 or 17 year old being married, but men and women were by far much more prepared for marriage a century ago then in today’s world. Therefore the family structure of ages past must be looked out and examined for the sake of today’s family. I know that would make relationships and family less romantic and more practical, but the practical side shows the maturity of those who are married.

Third, High School and parents push for college. There is a reason for this and that reason is the reality of having a better job if you go to college. Now fault here lies with both businesses that require a college education, even though with certain job descriptions and jobs they shouldn’t, and academic over real-world experience by academic institutions. Thus promotes why people would be getting the loans; especially white males because more scholarships are given to minorities and women. Therefore you already have a bias against a certain group and can thus flood the marketplace with women who could get married; in turn taking away jobs from men. If both men and women were taking loans and get married that adds the debt.

The fourth issue is the lack of gender roles. Women are taught by their families and the society that they are equal to men in all aspects and in turn have no gender role difference. Michael Brown was just in a debate that James White looked at. And the audience praised Brown’s opponent for denying gender roles in the family. Women are not being taught that they are a different side of the same coin, but in some cases superior to men and discredit things such as the role of a mother and family life. So here we see by women a push against marriage, at least for the purpose of families and particularly children.

The fifth, the added loans and prolonged immaturity result in delayed marriages and thus having children later in life. Couple that with personal individualism this new family will not necessarily have the structure and energy in place to care for a child over the course of 18 years, with their own bodies breaking down. They would be good by helping as grandparents, but not necessarily as parents. This can multiply the doctor bills, because of children needing to see a doctor along with cancer treatments, medication, and doctor visits of the parents (which would have been less if they would have started in their late teens or early twenties).

The sixth issue is the church reinforcing the second and third factor. Youth Groups and College Groups reinforce and isolate young people from the church. Instead of teaching them scripture, theology proper, and practical theology, they instead play games with maybe a moralistic message. Also I know of young men who are in seminary, who have been called by their church to serve and are thus going to seminary. They cannot afford to pay for it so they take out loans and receive no financial support from the church that called them. And why are they going to seminary? Because that is the requirement put in place so that that young man can fulfill the calling of the church. Instead of the church providing that education itself, they outsource it to another institution that is not under that church’s supervision. And when that man graduates, he must not only provide for his family, but also payback those loans. Which in turn limits how he can do ministry. He cannot preach for nothing in some rural area and provide the level of care that they may perhaps need, so in will probably stay in an urban setting.

Also I have two more things to say about taking out loans for school. I have heard a pastor counsel with the reformed community for a student to take student loans because he could no longer afford to go. So I have seen this burden pushed within our own circles. And secondly student loans in general take away as a potential offering what can be given to God because of the debt in place. So I would suggest men not take out loans. Have married people live with the guy’s parents, so that he care for his parents later in their life and at the same time saving on rent, and work at whatever job he can find. The is no promise that a college degree will give you a job, regardless of how good of a hard worker you are. So as much as one is able, live within your means and the Church must start taking care of their own, which would include helping finding work, not necessarily by giving handouts.

Also I have one more point to make. Working three or four jobs, if that is economically necessary, is not providing for your family fully. Children need to see their father and be taught by their father. And we as men have biological limits, we cannot be working 120 out of a 144 (assuming one taking a Sunday Sabbath) and be directly teaching our children and oversee (supervise) their religious education regularly. Someone, probably including our wives, will be neglected. And I think we have enough neglected families in our churches already because the man works to much, (including many pastors).

 

[kvanlaan]

I live in a country where my cousin's salary (24 years old, high school education, electrician's apprenticeship just completed) is at least 50-75% higher than mine (BA in Int'l Business, most of a Masters degree in business leadership) and 37 years old with a second language and 15 years experience under my belt. Plumbers can make $80K a year (and twice that if they go out on their own and have people on staff) and pretty much always find work. Go figure.

We have counseled our children (as homeschooled kids) to pick up an apprenticeship as soon as they turn 16 and can enroll in the program. At 20, they will have their ticket, won't make less than $35/hr and can get into (and out of) university without any debt. Debt is burdensome. It is a ball and chain. But please don't wait until you can 'afford' to get married. The time will never come.