Mark 4/John 12/Matthew 13

[BlackCalvinist]

Hi guys!

This one's probably been tackled before.

From the local Pelagiarminian on another board I frequent:

"10 But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. 11 And He said to them, "œTo you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 so that "˜Seeing they may see and not perceive, and hearing they may hear and not understand; lest they should turn, and their sins be forgiven them.´"" Mark 4

"Christ is speaking in parables so that they will not understand and be converted, with their sins forgiven. That makes no sense in the Calvinist model. Why use parables with the totally depraved? It would be unnecessary."

We're on page 11 of the thread. I've already noted that he and others are seeking to overturn Romans 8:6-9, 1 Cor. 2:14 and a host of other passages by riding this one parallel passage in order to disprove total depravity.

What's a good response ? Time's short for me these days to really dig in myself.

Kerry

 

[Contra_Mundum]

It is incredible to me that anyone would even think of using this passage to argue against total depravity. Or even bring it up in the context of a Calvinistic discussion, it is so heavy-laden with sovereignty-in-salvation.

God uses means. No Calvinist (who knows what he's talking about) says otherwise. Men by nature ARE totally depraved/unable. That doesn't mean they are all cookie-cutter people, with the same levels of either intellect or evil. Common grace is unevenly distributed.

The Word of God is the "power of God unto salvation." The Spirit applies the Word to men ordinarily to effect the change in their heart. God alone knows what "amount" or "timing" or "portion," or whether "blunt force" or "sharp edge" of the Sword of the Spirit he may use on any given person to change them.

And he will often use the same means to soften some that he uses to harden others. Total Depravity/Inability teaches that man is unable on his own to work any Spiritual good, to believe, or to prepare himself therunto.

Jesus, as God the Son, suggests by his choice of words, that under the ordinary, common effects of the Word and the Spirit (had he spoken God's Word plainly) that the combination might have been sufficient to have converted many, many more, other things being equal. NOTICE WHAT HE DOES NOT SAY: that apart from the Word and Spirit any of these persons would have believed or even desired to believe. These men would not, could not change on their own.

The presentation of the Word of God--the saving message--is a sovereignly directed act. Jesus, in his capacity as Sovereign Lord, refuses to speak in such a way as would be sufficient to break through the barriers of ignorance and hostility to the gospel. He refuses to act sovereignly to save these people. Jesus is shutting these people out of the kingdom sovereignly. They don't have a "choice". My, how unfair.

These "totally depraved" persons are left with stories that their naturally perverted minds trifle with, missing the spiritual truth that is abundantly evident in the same parables to the disciples. "Oh, but Jesus explained them (sometimes) to the disciples!" Yes, he did on occasion. He gave them more of his Word and Spirit. Sovereignly.

"For as many who have (how did they come to have it?) they shall be given more. And he who does not have--even what he has shall be taken away from him."

 

[BlackCalvinist]

You'd be surprised the lengths folk go to.

I was about to approach it from the aspect of (specifically for his misuse of Hebrews, which I didn't post) covenantalism.

Thanks for the extra ammunition.