Lutherans: Reformed or not Reformed?

[A_Wild_Boar]

Whats the deal with them? Reformed? Not Reformed? I noticed a huge lack of Lutheran posters here considering that Luther pretty much started off the whole reformation.

They seem very "Romish" but then again so was Luther.

Anyways, are there differing types of Lutheran churches, kind of like Baptists and PResbyterians? Or are Lutherans all pretty much the same?

Thanks in advance for any insight one may provide.



Title edited by puritansailor

 

[turmeric]

They believe in con-substantiation, I'm not sure how that works, but the body & blood at communion really are the body & blood, but also really bread & wine. Things that make ya go hmmm!

 

[cih1355]

Lutherans believe in the total depravity of man and unconditional election. They believe that one cannot choose their own spiritual birth. They believe that regeneration precedes faith. They deny that Jesus died for only the elect.

Lutherans believe that baptism is more than just water; It is water combined with the word of God. They believe that when an infant is baptized, the word of God comes to that infant and that infant is given saving faith by God. The faith that God gives you must be nurtured by His word or else it will die.

Lutherans do not follow the regulative principle of worship. They believe that worship consists of what is commanded by God plus anything not explicitly forbidden.

If you go to a Lutheran worship service, you would see the minister wearing a robe, candles, genuflecting before the altar, people kneeling as they partake in the Lord's Supper, etc. There is plenty of responsive readings in Lutheran worship services.

Some Lutheran churches are evangelical and some affirm liberal theology. For example, the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod is an evangelical church. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America is not really evangelical. It is liberal Protestant.

 

[jfschultz]

[quote:fe772ff126][i:fe772ff126]Originally posted by A_Wild_Boar[/i:fe772ff126]
Whats the deal with them? Reformed? Not Reformed? I noticed a huge lack of Lutheran posters here considering that Luther pretty much started off the whole reformation.[/quote:fe772ff126]

Probably because they are honest.

[quote:fe772ff126][i:fe772ff126]From the register page[/i:fe772ff126]
We believe an orthodox systematic approach to Biblical Truth can be found adequately expressed in either the Westminster Confession of Faith, (A Reformed Document) and the Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689 (A Particular Baptist Document). Joinee's must embrace and appreciate the tenets set forth here in one of these documents.[/quote:fe772ff126]

 

[Me Died Blue]

[quote:29c3fda370][i:29c3fda370]Originally posted by cih1355[/i:29c3fda370]
Lutherans believe in the total depravity of man and unconditional election. They believe that one cannot choose their own spiritual birth. They believe that regeneration precedes faith. They deny that Jesus died for only the elect. [/quote:29c3fda370]

Actually, from what I've heard, Lutherans for the most part don't believe [i:29c3fda370]any[/i:29c3fda370] of the doctrines of grace. Ever since Melanchthon, Luther's successor, retreated to the semi-Pelagian mindset, the Lutheran church has followed in his footsteps. Really, it's a shame that it's still called Lutheranism, especially since most American evangelicals today probably think it quite accurately represents what Luther believed and taught, which could not be further from the truth. It would be much more accurate and historically honest if it had been re-named Melanchthonianism a long time ago.

Chris

[Edited on 3-4-2004 by Me Died Blue]

 

[exscentric]

Years ago they thought the bread/wine turned to the body and blood on the way down.

Speaking of them, and evangelical lutheran that had given some members the boot were sued by the members and the courts told them that they had no right to determine who was or wasn't a member, that the members owned the church thus no leadership could determine such things.

 

[smhbbag]

so Me Died Blue, am i hearing you right that they accept T, U, and I - but not L and P from TULIP??

which brings me to a few questions on their theology:

1) is every single one of the elect saved?
2) if yes, then some baptized infants will fall away (because they are non-elect), yet these non-elect will have saving faith at one point in their lives??? uzzled:

if i am reading you right at all, this seems like one very convoluted and self-contradicting theological system.

[Edited on 3-4-2004 by smhbbag]

 

[Me Died Blue]

Jeremy, did you mean to ask Curt that? The point I was trying to make is that they don't believe [i:c6ef94de41]any[/i:c6ef94de41] of the doctrines of grace, from what I've heard from Lutherans themselves as well as secondary sources.

Chris

 

[smhbbag]

yea Me Died, i meant Curt (Cih1355), i don't know how i got that confused. sorry bout that.

i've been working on my homework for 5 hours now, took a break for some puritanboard, and now i'm just proving how fried my brain is. :no:

and in my experience, i've never met any lutherans (out of like the 5 i've talked to about such things) who would even give lip-service to any of the five points. i've never heard of any of them being remotely reformed (or, ironically, LUTHERan)

[Edited on 3-4-2004 by smhbbag]

 

[Puritan Sailor]

[quote:87b66fcf2a][i:87b66fcf2a]Originally posted by A_Wild_Boar[/i:87b66fcf2a]
Whats the deal with them? Reformed? Not Reformed? I noticed a huge lack of Lutheran posters here considering that Luther pretty much started off the whole reformation.

They seem very "Romish" but then again so was Luther.

Anyways, are there differing types of Lutheran churches, kind of like Baptists and PResbyterians? Or are Lutherans all pretty much the same?

Thanks in advance for any insight one may provide. [/quote:87b66fcf2a]
The Lutherans have gone through the same battles that the Presbyterians and Baptists have gone through the last 200 years. They have splintered and regrouped etc. like the rest. The larger Lutheran denominations are usually liberal. The only conservative ones I know of are the Missouri Synod and the Wisconsin Synod. They profess at least to hold to the Book of Concord and are suppose to be the "Luther" lutherans but most are Arminian to my knowledge. There have been conservatives in the past who were basically like Luther in soteriology (i.e Walther, Hengstenberg, Lenski, etc. ) and can be read with profit.

 

[ChristianasJourney]

Lutherans....

Hmmm. Isn't that what you get when a Baptist marries a Catholic?



(From one whose ancestry is weighted down with Lutheran missionaries, ministers, and school teachers.)

 

[cih1355]

[quote:41220f414a][i:41220f414a]Originally posted by smhbbag[/i:41220f414a]
so Me Died Blue, am i hearing you right that they accept T, U, and I - but not L and P from TULIP??

which brings me to a few questions on their theology:

1) is every single one of the elect saved?
2) if yes, then some baptized infants will fall away (because they are non-elect), yet these non-elect will have saving faith at one point in their lives??? uzzled:

if i am reading you right at all, this seems like one very convoluted and self-contradicting theological system.

[Edited on 3-4-2004 by smhbbag] [/quote:41220f414a]

They accept T, U, and part of I.

Lutherans believe that grace is irresistible if you are an infant. This explains why they believe that every baptized infant has saving faith. However, if you are not an infant, then grace is resistable.

Lutherans believe that people were chosen unconditionally to receive salvation, but it is up to us to keep it. This does not make sense, but that is what they claim to believe.

[Edited on 3-4-2004 by cih1355]

 

[cih1355]

Here is the link to the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod's website that affirms unconditional election:

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=576

Here is a link to the Formula of Concord. Articles I and II affirm the total depravity of man.

http://www.spread-the-word.info/creeds/concord.htm




[Edited on 3-4-2004 by cih1355]

 

[raderag]

[quote:2d226ae8b7][i:2d226ae8b7]Originally posted by puritansailor[/i:2d226ae8b7]
[quote:2d226ae8b7][i:2d226ae8b7]Originally posted by A_Wild_Boar[/i:2d226ae8b7]
Whats the deal with them? Reformed? Not Reformed? I noticed a huge lack of Lutheran posters here considering that Luther pretty much started off the whole reformation.

They seem very "Romish" but then again so was Luther.

Anyways, are there differing types of Lutheran churches, kind of like Baptists and PResbyterians? Or are Lutherans all pretty much the same?

Thanks in advance for any insight one may provide. [/quote:2d226ae8b7]
The Lutherans have gone through the same battles that the Presbyterians and Baptists have gone through the last 200 years. They have splintered and regrouped etc. like the rest. The larger Lutheran denominations are usually liberal. The only conservative ones I know of are the Missouri Synod and the Wisconsin Synod. They profess at least to hold to the Book of Concord and are suppose to be the "Luther" lutherans but most are Arminian to my knowledge. There have been conservatives in the past who were basically like Luther in soteriology (i.e Walther, Hengstenberg, Lenski, etc. ) and can be read with profit. [/quote:2d226ae8b7]

Lutherans are certainly not Arminian. They believe in Total Depravity, unconditional election, and imputation of righteousness.

 

[brymaes]

This is slightly off-subject, but isn't John Warwick Montgomery a Lutheran?

 

[Gregg]

My Grandmother played the organ for many years in a small Lutheran church in Manchester Ct.

I miss her very much.

Gregg

 

[Dlouis20]

[quote:8c22d6f990][i:8c22d6f990]Originally posted by Me Died Blue[/i:8c22d6f990]
[quote:8c22d6f990][i:8c22d6f990]Originally posted by cih1355[/i:8c22d6f990]
Lutherans believe in the total depravity of man and unconditional election. They believe that one cannot choose their own spiritual birth. They believe that regeneration precedes faith. They deny that Jesus died for only the elect. [/quote:8c22d6f990]

Actually, from what I've heard, Lutherans for the most part don't believe [i:8c22d6f990]any[/i:8c22d6f990] of the doctrines of grace. Ever since Melanchthon, Luther's successor, retreated to the semi-Pelagian mindset, the Lutheran church has followed in his footsteps. Really, it's a shame that it's still called Lutheranism, especially since most American evangelicals today probably think it quite accurately represents what Luther believed and taught, which could not be further from the truth. It would be much more accurate and historically honest if it had been re-named Melanchthonianism a long time ago.

Chris

[Edited on 3-4-2004 by Me Died Blue] [/quote:8c22d6f990]

Not true at all. For example, if you read the book by C.F.W. Walthier called 'The proper distinction between Law and Gospel' he repudiates Melanchthon and what he taught toward the end of his life. This book what written in the mid to late 1800's. Walthier was a strict disciple of Luther and preached in America.

 

[mjbee]

I went to a Lutheran church---once. It was clear they believed in some weird sort of baptismal regeneration, like Catholics. I didn't go there any more.

 

[yeutter]

Luther vs the Book of Concord

If you take the time to read the entire Book of Concord you find documents like the Augsburg Confession and Luthers Catechism. Their are distinctions between what is taught therein and what the Reformed teach. But their is common ground as well. What they teach about original sin fits nicely with the Reformed doctrine of Total Depravity.

Other later documents like the Saxon Visitation Articles clearly teach a kind of Resistable grace. The Doctrine of irresistible grace is expressly rejected.

Dr. Martin Luther, the man who wrote Bondage of the Will would certainly have had problems with some of the later confessional standards of Lutheranism.

Melanthon did indeed concede to much to the free will crowd. He also carried on a warm coorespondance with Calvin. He understood the Reformed objection to the doctrine of constabulation set forth in the Augsburg Confession of 1530. He wrote a revised version in 1540 to which Calvin subscribed. It was men who subscribed to the 1540 Revised Augsburg Confession that authored the Heidelberg Catechism.

 

[alwaysreforming]

The White Horse Inn

I know I've mentioned this show a few times, but for those who would like to hear how an actual Lutheran (Missouri Synod) interacts with other Reformed, and how he engages with the topics of contemporary evangelicalism vs. reformation theology, kindly tune in to the show "The White Horse Inn."
(I listen to it at "OnePlace.com&quot

The show consists of Michael Horton; Ken Jones (Baptist), Rod Rosenbladt (Lutheran); Kim Riddlebarger (reformed); and every now and then a special guest.

This is THE BEST SHOW ever on Christian topics! I've listened to a TON of radio, and no other show even comes close!

Now as far as Lutheranism is concerned, this guy Rod Rosenbladt from the show is totally awesome! He is my favorite out of all the cast, and I'm Reformed! He packs so much into a simple sentence and can take a convoluted argument or disjointed topic and hone it down to its bare essence QUICKLY!
While maybe it could be said that he overemphasises the bread and wine (and I'm not so sure that he does), I don't think you'll find yourself disagreeing with anything.

Become a regular listener of this show; you WILL NOT be sorry! I guarantee it!