Luther and the Jews

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Contra_Mundum said:
I think it's hard to make a good case that some relatively meek or peacenik Jews, Torah observant and quite serious about trying to be personally holy and against sin as the Law defined it, who are not inclined to persecuting the church, are "satanic assemblies" by a biblical definition that all of us (in this discussion) can agree upon.
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That's not most Jews, though (I realize the irony as I have a Jew as my avatar). Most of them are culturally Jewish but agnostic in belief.
 
Though I think Revelation 2-3's epithet was directed against the Jews at that time, who were persecuting the church.
 
I don't think it is an understatement to say that even the most non religious so called Jews have an animosity against christians and an outright hatred of Christ. YouTube is full of their venomous hatred. I don't normally start off evangelistic conversations by telling people they are under Gods judgment and influenced by Satan but I do think that. The goal of evangelism is to bring them out of darkness (Satans control) and into light.
 
BG said:
I don't think it is an understatement to say that even the most non religious so called Jews have an animosity against christians and an outright hatred of Christ. YouTube is full of their venomous hatred. I don't normally start off evangelistic conversations by telling people they are under Gods judgment and influenced by Satan but I do think that. The goal of evangelism is to bring them out of darkness (Satans control) and into light.
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I don't know. We worship in a temple and always have opportunities to speak with the Jews. I've never felt hated or even unliked. Just my opinion though.
 
Contra_Mundum said:
Bill,
If you believe that is the truest description of all false religion, then is that how you describe your witnessing targets when talking to them? "Hey, you know you're worshipping Satan, right?" I'm going to guess you don't. Safe bet.

OK, so this description we were given in Rev. 2&3: was that intended by the Holy Spirit to be the most essential and accurate description of every false religion? Of all Jewish synagogue worship? Or was it a particular epithet? I think so.

Is all false religion ultimately connected with the father of lies? I'll grant it. I think idolaters end up serving demons, even though they seldom aim at such service. But there is a great variety in the level of direct/indirect demonic influence.

I think it's hard to make a good case that some relatively meek or peacenik Jews, Torah observant and quite serious about trying to be personally holy and against sin as the Law defined it, who are not inclined to persecuting the church, are "satanic assemblies" by a biblical definition that all of us (in this discussion) can agree upon.

Our Confession speaks of some churches that have so degenerated the best description of them is: they've become "synagogues of Satan." That's a borrowing of the description from its original setting. It was particularly applicable to the irreformable, corrupt, and murderous (Jn.8:44; cf. 1Jn.3:12) Roman communion, which sought the literal destruction of gospel churches.

We should decide, with judicious care, which religious companies deserve such a name; and which are just wrong, which are (thankfully) not as bad as they could be, which are pathetic, and which are ridiculous. We should be glad Satan doesn't have the kind of limitless power that would let him free to make every false way an unholy temple, and every unbeliever a Gadarene demoniac.
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There are varying degrees within most religions, and churches, of how "satanic" their belief systems really would be. the averageMuslim would bea peaceful and sincere, but deluded individual in regards to salvation, but the Radical Islamist such as Isis have crossed over into being really satanically motivated and controlled.
Same way with Jewish groups, as many jews just been taught that the Christians have prosecuted them badly over years as being labeled as Christ killers, but most of them just once again spiritual ignorant and in the dark.
So that label of "Synagogoue of Satan" should be reserved only towards those religions and even churches that have pretty much totally ignored and active against Christianity in a manner that would be revealing really is satanically motivated and empowered..
 
BayouHuguenot said:
Though I think Revelation 2-3's epithet was directed against the Jews at that time, who were persecuting the church.
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I think that it would be against a group such as the Pharisees who were really spiritual blind and incited against Jesus due to having the father the devil behind their attacks upon Him . Not directed towards the jews who were not doing that to Him or his church at this time.
 
the Jews faced the Holocaust, which to many of them was done under Hitler, who was claimed as a good Christian by some, and they also saw the Church of Rome pretty much turning a blind eye to it. They also have experienced severe trials and tribulations under so called Christians and churches as being Christ Killers, so that might explain much of what you have been seeing.
 
Dachaser said:
I think that it would be against a group such as the Pharisees who were really spiritual blind and incited against Jesus due to having the father the devil behind their attacks upon Him . Not directed towards the jews who were not doing that to Him or his church at this time.
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But all of Judaism received a covenantal death sentence. And the Pharisees wouldn't have been operative in Asia Minor, as they were a Jewish ruling body.
 
BayouHuguenot said:
Your post said "we worship" in a temple.
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That is correct. We as a church rent the temple from the Jewish and use their temple as our building. They are very kind to us. As well, a Jewish couple I work with will regularly worship at Christian services. We love each other and they know I am a devout Christian.
 
Ryan&Amber2013 said:
That is correct. We as a church rent the temple from the Jewish and use their temple as our building. They are very kind to us. As well, a Jewish couple I work with will regularly worship at Christian services. We love each other and they know I am a devout Christian.
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I see. That makes sense.
 
BayouHuguenot said:
But all of Judaism received a covenantal death sentence. And the Pharisees wouldn't have been operative in Asia Minor, as they were a Jewish ruling body.
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ALL religions in the world received a death sentence after the Cross of Christ, as the Christian one is the only true one, but does not mean that automatically all Jewish groups/temple assemblies fall under that one being of Satan.
 
Dachaser said:
ALL religions in the world received a death sentence after the Cross of Christ, as the Christian one is the only true one, but does not mean that automatically all Jewish groups/temple assemblies fall under that one being of Satan.
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Israel was God's bride in the Old Covenant. Because she became a whore, God divorced her and destroyed the Temple.

I didn't say all Jews today were synagogue of Satan.
 
BayouHuguenot said:
I don't think I said that. Jewish opposition to Christians is more subtle and institutional. They do their damage via the p8rn industry, the Media, the Supreme Court, etc.
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I would see the Jewish persons in those areas much more into secularizing the culture, not so much anti christian!
 
There is no neutrality you either love Christ or you hate Christ there is no middle ground!
 
BG said:
There is no neutrality you either love Christ or you hate Christ there is no middle ground!
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true, but there are levels to being against Jesus, as one can against Him in the sense of being ignorant of Him, not knowing the scriptures, and there can be being against him as in denying His claims, and then by being almost energized by Satan to be against Him and His people, as Isis is today.
 
BayouHuguenot said:
I'm fairly certain they are targeting what they see as the Christian roots of our society. I doubt they are targeting Buddhists or Hindus.
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Maybe, but still see them targeting more the overall worldview of there being no God, and that morals and attitudes should be changed based upon more of a subjective measuring system .
 
Dachaser said:
Maybe, but still see them targeting more the overall worldview of there being no God, and that morals and attitudes should be changed based upon more of a subjective measuring system .
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Which is evil. Though their p8rn industry is a continuation of themes found within their Talmud.
 
Dachaser said:
true, but there are levels to being against Jesus, as one can against Him in the sense of being ignorant of Him, not knowing the scriptures, and there can be being against him as in denying His claims, and then by being almost energized by Satan to be against Him and His people, as Isis is today.
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All unbelievers are at enmity with God. Even the "good" citizen who helps the old lady across the road, gives to charity, etc., does these things with the wrong motives, never for the glory of God. Yes, unbelievers hate God with every breath they draw. Their indifference or ignorance is but one of the more odious forms of hate for the first book, creation, testifies that God is.
 
Is this the type of language that people feel is anti-Semitic from Luther?

"Now I am going home, and perhaps I will never preach to you again, and I have blessed you and prayed you to stay always close to God's Word ... I see the Jews are still among you. Now we have to deal with them in a Christian manner and try to bring them to the Christian faith that they may receive the true Messiah who is their flesh and blood and of the seed of Abraham—though I am afraid Jewish blood has got watery and wild these days. Yet they must be invited to turn to the Messiah and be baptized in him ... If not then we must not suffer them to remain for they daily abuse and blaspheme Christ. I must not, you must not be a partaker of the sins of others. God knows I have enough to do with sins of my own, but if they will give up usury and receive Christ we will willingly receive them as our brethren . . . but if they call Mary a whore and Jesus her bastard still we must exercise Christian love towards them that they may be converted and receive our Lord . . . this I tell you as your Landeskind not to be partakers of the sins of others. If they turn from their blasphemies we must gladly forgive them, but if not we must not suffer them to remain!"[WA. 51. 195-6 as cited in: Gordon Rupp, Martin Luther and the Jews (London: The Council of Christians and Jews, 1972), 21].
 
OPC'n said:
Is this the type of language that people feel is anti-Semitic from Luther?

"Now I am going home, and perhaps I will never preach to you again, and I have blessed you and prayed you to stay always close to God's Word ... I see the Jews are still among you. Now we have to deal with them in a Christian manner and try to bring them to the Christian faith that they may receive the true Messiah who is their flesh and blood and of the seed of Abraham—though I am afraid Jewish blood has got watery and wild these days. Yet they must be invited to turn to the Messiah and be baptized in him ... If not then we must not suffer them to remain for they daily abuse and blaspheme Christ. I must not, you must not be a partaker of the sins of others. God knows I have enough to do with sins of my own, but if they will give up usury and receive Christ we will willingly receive them as our brethren . . . but if they call Mary a whore and Jesus her bastard still we must exercise Christian love towards them that they may be converted and receive our Lord . . . this I tell you as your Landeskind not to be partakers of the sins of others. If they turn from their blasphemies we must gladly forgive them, but if not we must not suffer them to remain!"[WA. 51. 195-6 as cited in: Gordon Rupp, Martin Luther and the Jews (London: The Council of Christians and Jews, 1972), 21].
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How many Jews today actually call Mary a Whore and see Jesus as being a false Messiah, as many of them are secular, and jews just by birthright, and not by theology?
 
Ask Mr. Religion said:
All unbelievers are at enmity with God. Even the "good" citizen who helps the old lady across the road, gives to charity, etc., does these things with the wrong motives, never for the glory of God. Yes, unbelievers hate God with every breath they draw. Their indifference or ignorance is but one of the more odious forms of hate for the first book, creation, testifies that God is.
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That is indeed the truth, but there are vary degrees of opposition to Jesus though in different religions, as many say Muslims and Jews would see Him as either a prophet or a teacher, but not as true messiah, while others have a real hatred towards Him.
 
Dachaser said:
That is indeed the truth, but there are vary degrees of opposition to Jesus though in different religions, as many say Muslims and Jews would see Him as either a prophet or a teacher, but not as true messiah, while others have a real hatred towards Him.
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Not sure how this makes any difference in what I have posted, David.

One cannot be a "little" pregnant.
One cannot hate God a little and have God wink at their "little" hatred. ;)

Muslims and Jews hate God, for if they loved Him they would be worshipping He Who is revealed in Scripture.
 
Ask Mr. Religion said:
Not sure how this makes any difference in what I have posted, David.

One cannot be a "little" pregnant.
One cannot hate God a little and have God wink at their "little" hatred. ;)

Muslims and Jews hate God, for if they loved Him they would be worshipping He Who is revealed in Scripture.
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Many Muslims though honor Jesus, at least in their own minds as a prophet, so they would be deluded and wrong, but not outright evil like isis is.
 
People either love the living and true God or hate him. There is no middle ground. The idea that there are very nice respectable people somewhere in the middle is a fallacy.
 
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