Lets Make a List of amillennial/Preterist Authors and Preachers...?

Discussion in 'Revelation & Eschatology' started by Parker234, Jun 23, 2010.

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  1. Parker234

    Parker234 Puritan Board Freshman

    I am reading a book by Craig R. Koester entitled Revelation and the End of All Things, which is an amil/preterist commentary on the book of Revelation. I'm not finished with it yet, but it has been a profoundly helpful book, since I lean towards that millenial view.

    What other authors and preachers out there espouse an Amil/Preterist eschatology? (Is it necessary for me to clarify that I'm talking about partial preterism?)

    Here are the authors and pastors that I know of:
    Craig R. Koester (obviously!)
    Jay E. Adams
    Gene Cook, Jr. (Host of The Narrow Mind)
  2. Curt

    Curt Puritan Board Graduate

    The late, Great Planet....
  3. CIT

    CIT Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    Gentry and DeMar are both preteristic. I think Gentry is postmil though
  4. MLCOPE2

    MLCOPE2 Puritan Board Junior

    I'm an amil/p.p. but I'm not a preacher and I don't write books... yet. Does that help?
  5. Parker234

    Parker234 Puritan Board Freshman

    Michael, you've got spirit, and I think we should make you an honorary addition to the list.
  6. tcalbrecht

    tcalbrecht Puritan Board Junior

    I believe RC Sproul and Jay Adams should be on the list.
  7. kainos01

    kainos01 Puritan Board Senior

    Pretty sure Sproul is Post-Mil, along the lines of Keith Mathison.
  8. MLCOPE2

    MLCOPE2 Puritan Board Junior

    Thank you. It's about time my greatness is recognized. :lol:
  9. Parker234

    Parker234 Puritan Board Freshman

    We'd probably have more Revelation commentaries by now, if Sproul was Amil/P.P.!
  10. TomVols

    TomVols Puritan Board Freshman

    Kim Riddlebarger
  11. dane_g87

    dane_g87 Puritan Board Freshman

    Yeah Kim Riddlebarger is great, he's an amillennarian. His books: "A Case for Amillennialism" and "Man of Sin."

    Here's a list of amillennial scholars/theologians I came across:
    Louis Berkhof
    Anthony Hoekema
    John Murray
    Vern Poythress
    Geerhardus Vos
    Greg Beale
    J. I. Packer
    B. B. Warfield
    Oswald T. Allis
    Robert B. Strimple
    Martin Luther
    John Calvin
    A.W. Pink
    Tim Conway
    David White
  12. CNJ

    CNJ Puritan Board Senior

    Dane, I appreciate your testimony in your recent blog. Calvin didn't write on Revelation and I don't know if amil or postmil can claim him, although both camps try to.

    I spent over a year studying eschatology and blogged about it on Millennial Dreams as NewKidontheBlogg. In that blog I wrote about books I read. I loved Richard Belcher's A Journey in Grace and was so anxious to read his A Journey in Eschatology, thinking he would lead me logically to a viewpoint. I had read Riddlebarger, but when I read Jay Adam's book, I Will Tell Thee the Mystery, I was finally satisfied with his realized millennialism or amil preterist view. I am done studying it now and on to other discoveries.

    Adam, there is an amil historical view such as in William Hendrikson's More Than Conquerors. So this book can be added to your list.
  13. Jared

    Jared Puritan Board Freshman

    Sam Storms is Amil.

    Most of the Puritans were post-mil I believe. I know that Jonathan Edwards was.
  14. DMcFadden

    DMcFadden Puritanboard Commissioner

    R.C. has been just about everything eschatologically . . . except dispensational!

    He was most impressed with Gentry last time I checked.
  15. Parker234

    Parker234 Puritan Board Freshman

    For anyone interested, I've started doing a review of Koester's Amil-Preterist commentary of Revelation. I've finished the first two parts, but it'll probably be a ten-part review, because I'm carefully considering his arguments and interpretations.

    The review is at:
    Bring The Books
  16. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

    Preterist and Partial Preterist are two different positions. Preterists are cultic and do not believe some things that are essential to Christianity in my opinion. If Preterists are correct Christ has returned in 70 a.d. already for the last time. I believe there needs to be a major distinction here.
  17. Parker234

    Parker234 Puritan Board Freshman

    You're right, Martin.

    However, Partial Preterists (and I am one) resent the need to make the distinction. If I were a Full Preterist, I wouldn't be able to affirm the Westminster Standards or the 3 Forms of Unity.

    I understand the need for the distinction though. Full Preterists are the ones who should have to add the qualifier to their name, since they're the heretics.
  18. Peairtach

    Peairtach Puritan Board Doctor

    Johnnie Murray and B.B. Warfield were/are postmil. They may have been amil-postmils, but that makes them essentially postmil.

    Greg Bahnsen was a preterist postmil. He did a series of about 70 lectures on Revelation which I have on tape, and which Professor Van Til, and more importantly, I myself, found helpful.

    Bahnsen was less preterist than Gentry who puts everything from chapter 5 to 19 into the first century and makes Babylon first century Jerusalem. Bahnsen believed it was Rome.

    I believe Bahnsen was an amil-postmil like most modern postmils.

    I'm more of a historical preterist (or a pretero-historico-idealo-futurist) in that although I believe the events of Revelation start in the first century, before the destruction of Jerusalem, some events, like the end of civil/pagan persecution and ecclesiastical persecution (Beasts 1 and 2) and the downfall of apostate Christianity (Babylon) have yet to happen.

    The Kingdom-Millennium is a process in history directed from Heaven. The leavening of three measures of meal. The display and defeat of Christ's enemies.
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2010
  19. Parker234

    Parker234 Puritan Board Freshman

    You've piqued my interest, Richard. I'm not familiar with the idea of an amil-postmil would believe.
  20. Jerusalem Blade

    Jerusalem Blade Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    You'll want to add to the list:

    Dennis E. Johnson
    William Hendriksen
    Simon Kistemaker
    and Arturo Azurdia (81 MP3 sermons on Revelation, and a former student of Johnson)

    G.K. Beale (mentioned earlier) is one of the best,
    and Vern Poythress (also mentioned earlier) — his little book is excellent.
    Likewise Riddlebarger's, The Man of Sin.

    These are all partial preterist in that they acknowledge John the apostle wrote to the 1st century churches about 1st century political and spiritual realities, especially Rome — the then present embodiment of harlot Babylon, as well the beast from the sea (antichristian persecuting government).

    I should also mention David J. Engelsma (of the Protestant Reformed Church), an ardent defender of Reformed Amillennialism.

    I would venture to say that what Richard calls an "amil-postmil" is, as he himself expresses, "essentially postmil", and not amil at all.

    All these amil writers / preachers see the political forces and spiritual dynamics John (actually the Lord Jesus) addressed directly in the 1st century continued in principle and in reality through the centuries and into our own 21st. There is a present Babylon seducing the world and persecuting the saints today, and also beasts from the sea and from the land. All these amil teachers see an intense escalation of activity from these three antichristian forces as the very end becomes imminent. Some detailed discussion of these things here, and also here.

    I'm very interested, Adam, to read your reviews of Koester, with whom I'm not familiar.
  21. Peairtach

    Peairtach Puritan Board Doctor

    A lot of modern postmils are amil in the sense that they believe the Millennium began in the first century with Christ's (i.e. the God-Man's) Kingdom. But unlike proper amils, they believe that the Bible teaches that the Kingdom will make progress until it fills the whole Earth, and all nations as nations will acknowledge Christ as Lord and Saviour.

    Some of the older postmils tended to indicate that the Millennium would start at some point in the future such that e.g.

    (a) I believe, the Devil was bound in the future for many older postmils.

    Amils and postmil-amils believe that the Devil was bound in the first century as mentioned in the Gospels. I tend to take from Revelation 20 and subsequent history that the Devil's binding started in the first century but hasn't yet reached its full extent.

    (b)I believe, the first symbolical or spiritual resurrection was in the future for many older postmils.

    Amils and postmil-amils believe that this started in the first century with people being resurrected to newness of life in Christ, with Christians (including those to be martyred) reigning on Earth with Christ, and with Christians (including those martyred) reigning in Heaven with Christ. Beheading was a common means of execution for the first century martyrs e.g. the Apostle Paul. It is a resurrection that includes both Earth and Heaven, as it happens for the individual on earth when they are regenerated, and when they go to Heaven (through martyrdom or otherwise) Christ says that in fact they never die, because rather than experiencing the Second Death, physical death for believers is just a transition to a higher state of life and reigning with Christ.

    E.g. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (John 11:25-26, KJV)

    Postmillennial indicators in the Revelation 20 passage itself

    v.1 The angel coming down from Heaven (Christ Himself, Who is often likened to an anonymous angel Who is yet involved in history in Revelation) has the great chain of the Gospel. According to the Evangelists the binding of Satan began while Christ was on Earth and was indicated by the casting out of demons.

    vv.2-3 Satan is progressively limited in his power as the Gospel goes forth, until he is limited as much as he can be in this world.

    v.4 "I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them" indicates a reversal of "fortunes" for the martyrs and their Christian successors on Earth. As it were the souls of the martyrs reign upon Earth, as they have been vindicated by the course of history which has gone in the Christian direction. While the souls of the martyrs reign in Heaven, the Christian successors of the martyrs reign on Earth, not only spiritually but in reality, because the Devil has been fully bound and Christianity has become the dominant worldview.

    Daniel 7 is relevant here:-

    As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of days took his seat; his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire. A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened. I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time. I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed. As for me, Daniel, my spirit within me was anxious, and the visions of my head alarmed me. (Daniel 7:9-15)

    v.8 mentions Gog and Magog.
    Ezekiel 34 to 39 is an extended "commentary" on Revelation 20, with a massive resurrection of God's people, a period of peace for Israel (Jews and Gentiles who believe) under David (Christ) in the Land (the whole world is God's Land of Israel in the New Covenant), followed by the attack by God's enemies associated with the names of Gog and Magog. I believe this fits the postmil scheme best.

    See Patrick Fairbairn's excellent commentary on Ezekiel.
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2010
  22. Parker234

    Parker234 Puritan Board Freshman

    What you have just described, Richard, sounds like what I understood to be a Postmil-Preterist position. For example, Bahnsen, Gentry, and Wilson hold the view you just described, I do believe.

    But I suppose the amil element makes sense, since they understand the millennium to be something other than a literal thousand years.

    So in fact, somebody like Gentry would actually be labeled something like this: Postmil-Amil-Preterist. I'll bet we could add some more hyphens, as well, eh? ;-)
  23. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

    Cornelius P. Venema gives a rather clear history of the Postmil Amil positions along with their counterparts. He discusses the varying degrees. One thing I learned from his book on the subject is that Amillennial is a rather new term. So one might have been Amil with the label of Postmil. There are varying understandings of Postmil. Some differ on the time when Satan is bound and whether or not there is a literal 1000 years or not. Some differ on the length of the millennial reign and when it starts. My point in posting here is that there is something also called an optimistic Amil which is most likely referred to as a Postmil at one time. An Amil is also Post mill in that the return of Christ for the Church comes after the millennial reign. It doesn't happen before as a Premillennialist believes.

    I recommend this book for this topic.

    I read a years ago and gave mine away. It is an excellent book. One of my favorite ones on the subject.


    The Promise of the Future :: Cornelis P. Venema :: Contemporary Authors :: Modern Authors :: Monergism Books :: Reformed Books - Discount Prices - Free Shipping
  24. Peairtach

    Peairtach Puritan Board Doctor

    Both amil and postmil are postmil in orientation. The amils however don't see from Scripture the Gospel having quite the numbers of saved and the cultural, political, economic effects in the period from now until Jesus returns, that the postmils do.

    But if the Millennium was "realised" by AD 70 at the latest, would the Christians of that era have predicted the great number of souls and amount of cultural effects that the Gospel would already have had by AD 2010?

    The Millennium partakes of the "already......not yet" of all biblical eschatology. The Millennium was already fulfilled in the complex of First Century events, Christ's incarnation, ministry, death, resurrection, ascenscion, Pentecost, Christ's taking possession of the Earth de iure marked by the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70, but there was still much progress to be made in the Kingdom. Which is why we're sitting here at our keyboards 1,940 years later. And the Gospel hasn't lost its saving power or its ability to change the world even further than it has already.

    The postmils (or amil-postmils) are saying that in one sense the Millennium is realised, but in another sense it's not.

    By analogy with individual eschatology, in one sense your sanctification/salvation is realised the moment you believe. In another sense it is only the beginning of a process in this life until death i.e. Christ takes your soul to Himself.

    There is process and progress in the life of the individual believer and there is also process and progress in the life of the worldwide Church, in the illumination of the Holy Spirit and the application of His teaching to the maturity, effectiveness and numerical growth of the Church.

    And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love. (Ephesians 4:11-16, ESV)

    The tutelage under Moses and later under the Apostolic Administration of special gifts was the childhood of the Church. The Worldwide Church hasn't yet attained to full maturity, but is getting there with often one step forward and three steps back.
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2010
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