Scott Bushey
Puritanboard Commissioner
Why is it an assault if I say it is 'express' authority? Are they not your oversight and will they not answer to God for that leadership, given it be biblically correct or heterodox?
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You're probably speaking to Scott, but I would say that lay members don't need to worry about that? My opinion is that they should witness as the Biblical examples of lay witness and testimony describe. There is no force of ministerial authority with that; there is the power to overcome by "the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony."As a member of a local church I recognize the role and authority of the pastor and elders. When I share the word of God with someone am I doing so under their authority? Maybe their passive authority, but certainly not their express authority.
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My opinion is that they should witness as the Biblical examples of lay witness and testimony describe.
It's interesting to me, I haven't found a systematic theology that deals with evangelism, including lay evangelism. Does anyone know of one?
Perg, you haven't read the thread so you're bringing up things that have already been discussed (including the instructive witness and testimony of both of those Bible persons.) You can charactize this as a bunch of legalists crying "irregular" but it isn't fair to do so.Across the world are many testimonies of people finding the Scriptures and believing through reading them even without an ordained minister around. These then tell others and some of them believe. I've even heard of small groups forming and even churches founded this way.
When we look at cases like this we should shout, "Praise God!" Instead of shouting, "Irregular, Irregular!" or saying that is cannot be so because no ordained minister was involved.
Jeri,
It is also strange that a paedobaptist who lacks a single instance of an infant being baptized would doubt that a layman may be the instrument through which a person may believe due to a lack of an explicit Scripture witness. (and of course you are ignoring the woman at the well and the demoniac and other implicit cases).
Why is it an assault if I say it is 'express' authority? Are they not your oversight and will they not answer to God for that leadership, given it be biblically correct or heterodox?
I am very discouraged and I really wish more ordained men were out witnessing on the streets. Every other Thursday I try to go out witnessing with a friend to our downtown area. He cancelled last minute tonight, and I was by myself. People were with their families trying to have a good time and I felt like a weirdo. I was so uncomfortable and started to think that I didn't belong here, but rather, men who do this as a profession should be. I started to grow bitter, sadly.
Sorry Perg, I've gotten confused about the threads- I don't know if you've read the original thread, that one is where a lot of discussion took place about the issues you e mentioned.Jeri,
I've read the whole thread.
Your position leads to people diminishing the witness of regular Christians, as if their witness lacks power. Or as if we should not hope that any witness is effective unless it be from an ordained person.
Moderator Note:Ryan wrote:
Earl,
Is it possible that someone on their death bed can be converted through hearing the gospel without an ordained minister?
Yes or no, please.
Thankfully, none of this is true so far as what any of us has said and testified to on this thread! I and I am sure everyone else who is trying to get at what the Scriptures teach are enthusiastic about witnessing and sharing what Christ has done. I pray for opportunities. The nature of this conversation has unfortunately resulted in a lot of misunderstandings. (Last statement edited to sound more charitable. )I have seen course materials on "lay-evangelism" and it is never about preparing a sermon or administering the sacraments or exercising ecclesiastical authority but is always about improving one's witness. BUT...many Reformed still choke on the term "evangelism" when used in conjunction with lay-people.
I believe it has a net effect of muting the witness and sharing of the gospel by people in the pews. If we ask why there are so many Arminians and so few confessional Presbyterians about, this might be one reason. The more Truly Reformed you get the more of a stickler you become about witnessing until it dries up the enthusiasm of many.
Ryan,I am very discouraged and I really wish more ordained men were out witnessing on the streets. Every other Thursday I try to go out witnessing with a friend to our downtown area. He cancelled last minute tonight, and I was by myself. People were with their families trying to have a good time and I felt like a weirdo. I was so uncomfortable and started to think that I didn't belong here, but rather, men who do this as a profession should be. I started to grow bitter, sadly.
If this is the question .... I look at the bottom right of the text box, click 'quote' first, then 'reply', and your text/screen name appears . I reply under that and there you go. There is also a multi quote option which is self intuitive if you try it a time or two.Patrick,
Thanks for the assistance.
How do I do that, exactly?
If this is the question .... I look at the bottom right of the text box, click 'quote' first, then 'reply', and your text/screen name appears . I reply under that and there you go.
Yes, if someone reads the preaching in the bible.
Earl, I'm thankful to are able to witness to people in the hospital.
Some follow-up questions if I may. You said:
1. Does any portion of the Bible count as preaching or only certain portions?
2. If someone speaks of biblical doctrines without reading scripture, can the person on their deathbed be saved?
3. Since you a) count at least some portion of the Bible as preaching, b) permit this to come through the mouth of the lay-person, c) do you believe in vicarious preaching through laypeople?