I don't have time to keep interacting with the threads, Bill, but for me anyway, the main thing is, what does the Bible teach us about God's plan for the conversion of souls. The current evangelical thinking and subsequent practice about this is way out of line with what Scripture teaches (that's the proposition) and a corrective would call for strong assertions and statements. God in his mercy saves people even in our disorderly thinking and practice (Arminianism, charismaticism, individualism, and on and on) but we should seek to understand his prescribed ways and pray for times of reform. We should seek to recover the higher, Reformed view of the church and our practice in lay witnessing should simply reflect this higher view of the church.Based on what some are saying on the two threads, Salvation is impossible unless it occurs under the preaching of an ordained reformed minister.