Kirk Cameron and Ray COmfort to be on ABC's Nightline

Discussion in 'Entertainment and Humor' started by ReformedWretch, Mar 16, 2006.

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  1. john_Mark

    john_Mark Puritan Board Freshman

    So if I am reading correctly the answer to question two is a no or probably not. Question number one nor three were answered. Question three isn't much different from what they are preaching and is a loose paraphrase of Acts 2:38.

    If I unpack what you are saying I get this: You're not necessarily questioning whether or not C&C are Christians, but you are concerned that they are preaching an Arminian Gospel which is false. Given that they are preaching a Gospel they believe which you say is false so in essence you are questioning their position in Christ. Yes?

    Or to state it more simply.

    Arminianism's Gospel can't save,
    C&C believe an arminian gospel,
    Therefore C&C aren't saved.


    I'm not really concerned with JWs since these two men are not JWs. Even if they were Mormon I would be concerned with Mormonism and still not with JWs.

    I agree there are much better people to endorse, however, I don't know of any that do street evangelism in this way.
  2. Scott Bushey

    Scott Bushey Puritanboard Commissioner

    Trying to pigeon-hole me? :cool:
    God saves Arminians; they do not remain in the error. Arminianism is heresy and those whom hold to it are heretics. Heresy damns. If Comfort et. al. are believing and holding to an Arminian god, they are in trouble. God only knows........

    Correct. However, God can use the elements of his truth to even save in a distorted gospel presentation.

    If the shoe fits........Jesus said, you will know a tree by it's fruit.

    This is the problem. Who told them to do what they are doing? Are they ordained, called to preach the gospel?

    Oh and by the way, the JW's can be and must be considered in this context. They preach repentance, acceptance, Christ is the truth etc. The Arminian god is no less the god they worship.......

    Have you read Matt's paper on Arminianism?

    [Edited on 3-18-2006 by Scott Bushey]
  3. john_Mark

    john_Mark Puritan Board Freshman

    No offense, but as I see it if anyone is pigeon-holing anyone it's you doing it to yourself. Based on everything you said C&C do not show fruits of being born again at this time so we shouldn't count them among the brethren. Although, if they truly are Christians in time they will not remain in error and will become Reformed. After reading this thread a friend of mine mentioned, "I guess Adrian Rogers is not in heaven either." I digress.

    You keep trying to shift the arguement to JWs or Mormons, etc. which doesn't matter. Heresies are addressed in different contexts rather than as a lump sum. If not then why not just right one apologetics book against a particular group and use it for every group? Voila...done! Anyways, this gets us off track.

    I don't believe they are ordained, no. This also isn't the main issue though. I suppose it better that I never defend my faith nor share the Gospel either. No more lay-apologetics, etc.

    No, I haven't read Matt's paper on Arminianism. Maybe I will...we'll see.

    Anyways.....I need to go to my office now....later.
  4. Scott Bushey

    Scott Bushey Puritanboard Commissioner

    No, I said that IF they are holding to an Arminian premise, then they are yet to be regenerated. Only God knows that. I have never spoken to either of them on the subject.


    I know nothing of A. Rogers, but as I have said, if he held to an Arminian premise..........It can't be both ways. You see, if it is both ways, none of us would be able to 'judge a tree by it's fruit'. The statement by Christ would be fruitless. We would have to take the premise to it's furthest conclussion which ultimately lead us into universalism.

    Wrong! God does not grade on a curve; error is error. A little cancer is no better than a lot. The JW's are in error and so are the RC's. Arminianism is heresy and it damns no less than what the RC's believe or the JW's. Sort of like Christian does not a Christian make.

    Thats been done. Have you read Turretin's book "Justification"?

    There is a diffence between giving a reason for the hope that is in you and what they are doing..........ask your pastor.

    I suggest you read it.
  5. ReformedWretch

    ReformedWretch Puritan Board Doctor

    All this and I miised it! Was it on? How did they do? Anything sad or embarassing?
  6. Scott Bushey

    Scott Bushey Puritanboard Commissioner

  7. believer

    believer Puritan Board Freshman

    after reading that ................I'm convinced........they're on their way to Hell.....:um:
  8. ReformedWretch

    ReformedWretch Puritan Board Doctor

    I don't believe they are going to Hell. I do believe they are in error and stand in danger of judgment if they teach error. For years I taught Arminian error to others with great zeal. I mean no harm at all! In fact I was convinced I was doing God's work. I am now convinced that I actually lead others astray. What I mean to do does nothing to make up for that. I know that no one will go to Hell that God wants to save, but I didn't do what I meant to do.

    I actually assured several of their salvation because they said the "sinners prayer".:chained:
  9. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    What about the Indonesians (or...replace with any newly evangelized people-group) who have never heard of the five points and have barely heard of the name of Christ?

    They do not know any of these theological categories. They know that they are sinners and that Christ is the savior.

    Would you deny that they lack a vital Christianity even though they study the Bible free from hundreds of years of scholastic Christianity and an experienced Christian "lingo"?

    They pray, they go out and tell their neighbors, they do works of mercy and charity with only the small light that they possess.

    What are you doing with your light?

    Would you not desire that Ray Comfort and KC go and help these people...and if not, would you be willing to go instead?

    And why are the Arminians beating many of you precise-dot-your-theologocial-I's-just-right-or-else-I-will-condemn-you Calvinists!

    I believe in the Five Points and the Five Solas without apology. But give me an evangelistic Arminianism over a dead orthodoxy any day!

    Let us bring people to Christ, not necessarily Geneva. A presentation of the Gospel need not be a presentation of TULIP.

    The Gospel is, indeed, fairly simple.
  10. Scott Bushey

    Scott Bushey Puritanboard Commissioner

    I believe you are missing the point. Dead orthodoxy saves; Arminianism damns, period. No one is questioning C&C's eternal position. The issue has been that we the reformed have better alternatives to endorse and suggest.
  11. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    DEAD orthodoxy saves?

    Christ saves, even through the errors of men. Most Arminians pray for conversion like Calvinists. Lord, please save me. Many trust in Christ in a saving manner.

    EVERY Arminian Christian that I know at least gives lip service to "Grace Alone." They speak of the Lord saving them. Sadly, they are inconsistent. But they are not heretics, but brothers possessing less light.

    I see the point you are making: Let us support "our own". Amen to your point, as long as it comes in an irenic package that prays for these brothers instead of counting them as heretics on the same level as Arians.

    Let us be happy for God's blessings upon all sorts of Christians who are preaching Christ savingly.

    And by "savingly" I mean that they preach our sin and our need and Christ's mercy received through faith to save us.

    Let us not say, "well...they state that God saves us solely due to grace but let us ask them if regeneration precedes conversion or not to see if their Gospel is really The True Gospel or Not."

    I do endorse sound men. Also, however, if a growing believer takes a liking to Ray Comfort or Kirk Cameron, I encourage them and point out the good things that they ARE saying. Why pour cold water on their warm zeal? They are learning much and are discovering much and there is room for gentle and gradual correction instead of shooting down every doctrinal deviation that comes down the pike.

    I would rather phrase it this way, however, so that I do not appear to condemn the good work that makes up a large part of their ministry.

    Instead of :

    "Thanks be to God for the good that they do do. God bless their efforts and sanctify them further. Thank you for their zeal and use them despite themselves. More fully reveal Yourself to them and give them continued strength.
  12. Scott Bushey

    Scott Bushey Puritanboard Commissioner

    Trevor, please. You know what I mean! Orthodoxy implies that someone has truth. We are not talking about someone who has tradition.

    I've said that a number of times in this thread; have you read that?

    I understand; however, they don't hold to Gods sovereignty over the situation as you or I do. Their gospel is synergistic. Men, then God.......

    This is an assertion you cannot prove, and based upon their theology, that could be challenged.

    Was Arminius a Christian or a heretic?

    I don't believe anyone called C&C heretics. We did say though that Arminianism is heresy and those whom die holding to such a notion will perish.

    But this is not what the Arminian is doing. The Arminian Christ is a weakling, unable to even hold his people.........

    However, the Christ of the Arminian is a synergy that is initiated by men and held together by men.

    You are missing it.

    I can do that with the Church of Christ as well. Or the Mormons (They ride their bikes all over town witnessing). I used to watch Copeland years ago. he has a lot of good things to say. Look at his theology though and you will see hell; in all it;s glory! This is just silliness. I get it, eat the meat and spit out the grissle??? Wrong. Error is viral. I would bypass endorsing them and suggest Owen, calvin, Turretin etc.

    You're looking at this in the wrong light. They are wrong, period. If I was left in my error back in high school, I would have never passed math. Would this have been right of the teacher to pass me nonetheless? Or leave me in my error?

    I prefer, God, if they are yet unregenerate, by your spirit, regenerate them, give them sight so that they may see the kingdom of God, see your truth, for your glory alone.
  13. Arch2k

    Arch2k Puritan Board Graduate

    Trevor, this is an appeal to pity. Nobody has ever said that one must be a Calvinist to be saved, and zeal counts for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING as far a justification is concerned.

    This verse suits well for most Arminian "evangelists":

    Rom 10:2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
    Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God´s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.

    Believing it.

    1. Absolutely not.
    2. Willing if God sent me...sure. Is it wrong not to want to be a missionary...absolutely not.

    Eph 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
    Eph 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

    What do you mean "beating me?" They are in no way "beating me." Evangelism is not the "chief end of man", but to glorify God in whatever you do, this is the chief end of man.

    This is commendable, but do you believe the scriptures as they condemn salvation by works as heresy? Do you believe the conclusion Dort came to naming Arminians as heretics? If not...why? Because they "evangelise"?

    You can have it! "Dead orthodoxy" is just an abusive ad hominem by the way.

    Would you take Mother Theresa over "dead orthodoxy"? How about the even better "evangelists" the Jehovah's Witnesses?

    Nobody in this discussion has sad that.

    True, but it is not the Arminian gospel.
  14. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Well brother.... You appear to slice your pie a little narrower than I do....

    I do truly see what you are trying to guard against. There is much truth in what you are saying. I say hooray for your zeal.

    But please grant that there are many sincere Arminian Christians who excel us in understanding many other points of doctrine and are far superior in practical holiness than many of us.

    Many Arminains are saved. Most believers do not even know how to define Calvinism versus Arminianism...yet they are believers, and dear ones at that.

    I, too, identify myself and label myself very narrowly as to my own beliefs. Yet, I believe in more cooperation for the sake of evangelism, missions and outreach.

    And Ray Comfort appears to get out and about and speak a basic Gospel message to many folks.... more than I suppose most of us here come into contact with (we are too busy bashing him here on the Puritan Board to go out and speak Christ to our neighbors maybe).

    I applaud him for his zeal. I even like basically everything I have heard from him so far? He speaks of sin, rightouesness, God's unwavering standard of holiness, man's depravity and God's solution in the substitutionary atonement of Christ.

    Are you comparing Ray Comfort to the Mormons? Sorry, but that seems just a little bit silly, doesn't it?

    I am sure that he has his errors. Here is a summary of Phil Johnson's review of Comfort's site, which I found very balanced and helpful:

    "Living Waters
    I couldn't quite decide whether to categorize this site under "Helpful" or "Bad Theology," so I put it here in a neutral category.

    This is the ministry of Ray Comfort, who has built his entire ministry on the strength of one message, "Hell's Best-Kept Secret."

    The message is indeed superb.

    It demonstrates how God's law is designed to make our sin appear exceedingly sinful (cf. Romans 7:13). Comfort makes excellent use of the Ten Commandments for that purpose. Indeed, the main substance of virtually all Comfort's teaching, and his central message, is all about the importance of preaching the law to sinners. I agree, and Comfort is certainly having an important ministry correcting one of the major imbalances of contemporary Christianity.

    What concerns me, however, is that he never seems to get around to preaching the gospel with the same kind of clarity and force. In all Comfort's books, tapes, and other resources, there is scarcely any mention of the doctrine of justification by faith, no thorough explanation of substitutionary atonement, and (in my view) insufficient emphasis on the meaning of the cross. This is surely a glaring deficiency and a major imbalance in a ministry devoted to evangelism."

    Phil Johnson both seems to applaud Comfort on his good points and take him to task concerning his bad points.

    I.e. it is a balanced review and not merely a diatribe against the man. Even though Johnson has reservations about Comfort, he does credit him where credit is due.

    I just want to do the same for Comfort (credit him where it is due and critique him where it is due...there is a little of both to be done).

    I rub elbows with several Reformed folks that preach to me a Gospel of "not this" or "not this". They are such "Precisionists" that they seem to find the small point of disagreement and make that the pivot point of conversation everytime they meet someone. For the sake of "being zealous for the truth" many unsaved folks get the wrong impression of Christian love and charity from these folks. So much energy is expended bashing others that it sometimes takes effort to actually find out just what they believe.

    I am sure that this does not characterize you, brother, but it is a trap that is easily fallen into?

    I, for one, have heard Ray Comfort speak basic Gospel to sinners. He presented their sin to them, God's response and the need for Christ. He stressed the need for faith, but isn't faith needed? He stressed repentance, but isn't repentance needed?

    I have watched his "Way of the Master" tv program many, many times and came away with a generally positive view of him. He did not go deeply into theology, but he presented the basics clearly, accurately (from what I saw) and with a heart for the lost.

    Good day Scott, sorry that we disagree on this one....
  15. tdowns

    tdowns Puritan Board Junior

    Good thoughts.

    I rub elbows with several Reformed folks that preach to me a Gospel of "not this" or "not this". They are such "Precisionists" that they seem to find the small point of disagreement and make that the pivot point of conversation every time they meet someone. For the sake of "being zealous for the truth" many unsaved folks get the wrong impression of Christian love and charity from these folks. So much energy is expended bashing others that it sometimes takes effort to actually find out just what they believe.

    Brother Trevor, I've seen this, and lived this and done is def. a trap all need to be wary of in my opinion.

  16. Will

    Will Inactive User

    An observation:

    Debating who will and who will not be saved seems to occupy a lot of discussion on this board.
  17. Scott Bushey

    Scott Bushey Puritanboard Commissioner

    For the tenth time, I have evaded, for the obvious, judgment at this level. I have however strongly urged that the reformed remain consistant in their theology and stick to suggesting reputable men of God for their examples to the unbeliever or weaker Christian. Error will do nothing more than perpetuate a problem that is so greatly prevalent in our age.

    Will, Your post above is not at all helpful; in fact, as I have emphasized, we are not addressing C&C personally but their theology. Their relationship with Christ is their relationship. Arminism is heresy and those whom hold to it will be damned. Arminianism was rejected at Dordt as heresy; there are many strains of this error today; whether you want to agree with that or not is irrelevent to the fact.

    For the record, it has been said on many occasion that there are individuals being saved (even) in the heretical rank and file. Those individuals abandoning the erred theology for truth and life. Do we openly reject and anathemize those groups that are enemies of Christ? We do! Do we pray for those blinded by the lies that are prevalent in these groups? Absolutely. Are we gracious to these people in person? Absolutely. As groups, we HATE these situations with the same vigor expressed in the book of Psalms:

    Psa 69:9 For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.

    It will be a personal choice on your end to decide whether or not this venue is for you; you may find it edifying. Maybe not. Since you are new here, I gracefully suggest to spend some time here before leveling charges that you cannot defend. If a subject upsets you, i.e. soteriology, covenant theology, baptism issues, you should make it a point to avoid those topics with titles that you find uneasy. There are many other general threads that you can benefit from; things that will indeed benefit your walk with Christ.


    Scott Bushey/Administrator PB

    [Edited on 3-19-2006 by Scott Bushey]
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