Kings worshipping Christ -- THIS earth or NEW earth?

[nwink]

Psalm 72:11 "Yes, all kings shall fall down before Him; All nations shall serve Him."

How does one tell, based on such a passage as Psalm 72, if these things are referring to events to take place in THIS earth or in the NEW earth? (When I've heard people deal with this text, they often seem to appeal to their overall eschatology rather than the specifics details of the text.)

 

[Jack K]

If you're asking whether Psalm 72 is strong evidence for either a post-mil or an a-mil/pre-mil eschatology... that seems like a lot to ask of this one psalm, especially since it is, on its basic surface level, pretty obviously about Solomon and the kings of Israel. Of course, we know that by extension it also prefigures Christ. But I would expect any expositor to bring his understanding of the rest of Scripture into his interpretation of this passage. We let Scripture interpret Scripture. There's nothing wrong with that. After all, it is only due to the rest of Scripture that we even know it's about Christ at all.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hello Nathan,

Psalm 2, in part, reads,

The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers take counsel together,
against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,
Let us break their bands asunder,
and cast away their cords from us.
He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh:
the Lord shall have them in derision.
Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath,
and vex them in his sore displeasure​

This likely pertains to all the ages before the second coming of Christ. There will always be kings who oppose Him. Revelation 16:14 speaks of kings being deceived by Satan's emissaries into going to war against God at the very end. Rev 17:12-14 shows another view of these same kings rising up against the Lamb. The same with Rev 19:18-19. So certainly "all kings" and "all nations" are not serving Him in this age. They rage against Him even unto His second coming.

In Rev 21:22-26 we see all kings and all nations serving and worshipping God and the Lamb in the City of God in the eternal state:

And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.​

I would say this understanding is text and not eschatology-driven.

 

[MW]

How does one tell, based on such a passage as Psalm 72, if these things are referring to events to take place in THIS earth or in the NEW earth?

So far as inspired prophecy is concerned, distinctions like this are always post-factum. The reason is, inspired prophecy is self-fulfilling; it inspires hope in the fulfilment, and this operates under gracious providence to bring it to fulfilment. If the church stopped hoping for the subjection of kings, it would not witness as it should to the kings of the earth, and subsequently there would be no means to bring them to subjection. The new earth is not the creation of something from nothing, but the consummation of God's work of grace throughout history. The consummate vision presupposes historical fulfilment.

 

[a mere housewife]

I read Isaiah 60 this morning:

Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee.
For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.
Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.
The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the Lord.
All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.
Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?
Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the Lord thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.
And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.
Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.
For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted. . . .

The first three verses reminded me of the star that the wise men from the East followed, bringing gifts to worship the infant Christ. Surely the church does continue throughout history, simply by being a city of people born from above, to be a light that draws the nations?

 

[Peairtach]

Certainly there have already been kings and rulers that have served Christ from the heart over the last almost 2,000 years, as there have been kings and rulers that have opposed Him.

All have done His providential bidding, although I doubt this text is referring to that.

Other Psalms indicate a process of bringing the nations and their rulers under His subjection, so we don't find that the whole world is immediately converted to Christ, when the Apostles preach the Gospel in the first century.

That was not God's plan.

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2

 

[R Harris]

There is tremendous disagreement on how the kings passages of Scripture - not just Revelation - should be treated. The interpretation will always be predicated upon one's presuppositions about eschatology, the Church's involvement in government and politics, the scope of Christ's redemptive work, and what the proper Christian worldview should be.

The Isaiah 60 passage mentioned above is critical to the proper interpretation of Revelation 21 and 22 in my opinion. It has been the common interpretation of Dispensationalists and others that chapters 21 and 22 are POST the great white throne judgment of chapter 20. But simply because 21 and 22 follow 20 does not automatically describe John's thought with regard to timing. (After all, chapter 12 actually goes BACK in time to describe the dragon's (satan's) attempt to destroy Christ through Herod; and then when that failed along with his failure to rid Christ by the cross, the dragon then goes off to wage war against the saints of the Church.)

Revelation 22:2 talks of the leaves of the tree given for the healing of the nations. If everything has been restored to perfection in chapter 21, what further need is there of healing?? Postmils of the the last two centuries (such as Fairbarn) interpreted the leaves to be the proclamation of the gospel. Christ as white horse rider in chapter 19, with the sword coming out of his mouth, is the conquering of the nations through the proclamation of the gospel to all nations.

So - as Isaiah and other prophets proclaimed and the NT (especially Revelation) profess - kings will be converted to Christ, they will bring their glory into the Church (Revelation 21:24), and they will become nursing fathers and mothers to the Church (Isaiah 49:23). Those which do not do these things in this present age will perish (Isaiah 60:12; Psalm 2:10-12).

THIS is why we pray for kings and all those in authority (I Timothy 2:1-6). We pray for their conversion, their new creature position causing them to care for and help nurture the Church to fulfill its mission. When those things happen, we can then live the peaceful and quiet lives which Paul speaks of.

 

[Peairtach]

Clearly the Lord doesn't want us to be able to "chart it", AFAICS ( as far as I can see).

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[Jerusalem Blade]

Hello Randy,

You said, “Revelation 22:2 talks of the leaves of the tree given for the healing of the nations. If everything has been restored to perfection in chapter 21, what further need is there of healing??”

You seem to be reading 22 as if it were chronologically after 21, when it is but a further look into – a continuation of – the vision commenced in 21. When we first get into the eternal state on New Earth with new resurrection bodies, who is to say there will be no further “healing” – say as in the attuning of our senses and our perceptions to the new realm of glory we are in?

You also say,

“It has been the common interpretation of Dispensationalists and others that chapters 21 and 22 are POST the great white throne judgment of chapter 20. But simply because 21 and 22 follow 20 does not automatically describe John's thought with regard to timing.” (bold emphasis added)​

This “and others” of yours no doubt refers to amils, seeming to lump us into the Dispensational chronological approach to the visions of the Apocalypse. We (the amils) certainly do not have this approach! However, the text itself makes chronological delineations with respect to Rev 20, its white throne judgment and the consigning of those not written in the book of life to the lake of fire, and then, in Rev 21, we see the lot of the blessed now given to live on the New Earth (whereon Heaven and God also are), of which it is said,

“the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.” (Rev 21:3-5)​

The Scripture itself marks the transition into the eternal state of the blessed. This is that of which Jesus spoke in Matt 25:34, “Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world”. The nations and kings of the earth spoken of in Rev 21:24, walking in the light of God’s and the Lamb’s glory emanating throughout the City are likewise in the wondrous eternal state.

Can you show me anything in the visions given in Revelation 21 or 22 which, apart from the mere superimposition of a postmil schema, of itself speaks of a time before the commencement of the eternal state?

I should think such a view as you are suggesting would prove fatal to the credibility of postmillennialism.

 

[R Harris]

Wow, Steve, not sure where even to begin with your assertions, but will try.

1. No, postmil does not collapse simply because of my assertions of Rev. 21 and 22. In fact, in postmil works I have read/studied, maybe 5%
or so deal with this particular issue in Rev. 21/22.
2. By saying "and others" I really did not have any particular person or group of people in mind. I just know that there are people who have
eschatological positions outside of Dispensational premil who would have their view of this matter. So no, I was not trying to take a dig at
anyone.
3. I provided a few examples, as did others, of portions of Scripture that point to the temporal interpretation of Rev 21/22. Isaiah chapters
60 and 65 are prime examples. Regardless of how one wants to interpret the language of these chapters as literal or otherwise, the
context of many of the verses in those chapters point to temporal events and things. You really have to be biased to deny that the
language poses a problem to the eternal state view. In fact, when Peter talks about the new heavens and the new earth and the
elements being burned up (II Peter 3), the greek word for "elements" really refers to the particular things of the temple worship. I have
yet to see that term being applied in a different context. if there is, I would appreciate someone showing me.
4. When the verb in Rev. 21:24 is in the future tense (shall bring), I have to wonder. Since in the eternal state there is no future from a
chronological time perspective, you have to wonder why the verb form is the way it is.
5. Not sure how you can contend that healing still occurs in the glorified, eternal state. After the final judgment, what is there left? The
saints will be in glorified bodies, saints are in the very presence of the Lord and the Lamb where sin cannot exist. We are changed in
the twinkling of any eye at the return of Christ (I Cor. 15), there is no hint of a gradual process occurring of sin or decay being eliminated -
it happens in an instant. In the eternal state, no kings exist (I Cor 15: 21-27), no repentance exists, everything in heaven is glorified.
So, the healing has to be explained in some other manner.

Until these issues are convincingly explained otherwise, I am where I am at in my position by default. This is my view of eschatology; I have arrived at postmil more from a process of elimination of positions/statements that cannot be rather than by an overwhelming majority of explicit texts, although I think there are plenty for postmil. Still, postmil has problems, but I believe fewer problems than the other eschatological positions.

Hope that helps to clarify my statements at least somewhat.

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hello Randy,

To respond to your points one at a time:

1. 1 out of 20 postmil works you have studied deal with the issue of Rev 21/22? That’s not much of a percentage! To assert that Revelation 21 and 22 are not post the white throne judgment borders on the bizarre. At this point your statement is glaringly true:

The interpretation will always be predicated upon one's presuppositions about eschatology, the Church's involvement in government and politics, the scope of Christ's redemptive work, and what the proper Christian worldview should be.​

The view that Rev 21 and 22 pertain to the present age – postmil-style – is anything but text-driven. You try to use the OT to explicate the NT, a hermeneutic method exactly backward from its proper use. I had asked you above,

Can you show me anything in the visions given in Revelation 21 or 22 which, apart from the mere superimposition of a postmil schema, of itself speaks of a time before the commencement of the eternal state?​

And you didn’t. You instead go to Isaiah 60, concerning which you opined, “The Isaiah 60 passage mentioned above is critical to the proper interpretation of Revelation 21 and 22 in my opinion.” Have you ever heard Augustine’s saying, “In the Old Testament the New Testament is concealed; in the New Testament the Old Testament is revealed”? At any rate, let’s look at Isaiah 60, from the perspective of saints illumined by the advent of Christ and the increased light NT Scriptures have cast on the Old, and not seeking to use the faint light of the OT to determine what the New plainly reveals.

For those following this discussion, you can check your Bibles, as I’m not going to post the whole of Isa 60 here. In Isa 60:3 it is written, “And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.” Just above in verses 1 and 2, it says,

“Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee”​

Of what is this speaking? It is written of Zion – or the House of God – upon whom the LORD, Jehovah, shines with His glory, and His glory fills the house, the New Testament church. And without the house: “darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people”. In Isaiah 2:1-3 we have the same image: in the New Testament age the LORD’s house shall be established “and all nations shall flow unto it”. Not all nations to a man, but out of all nations men shall seek the God of Jacob. You may dispute this view as well, Randy, but such it is.

Paul in Romans 15 talks of this phenomenon – the Gentiles (kings not excluded) coming to Christ in the Gospel age, as in verse 12: “And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust”. The four previous verses speak on the same wise.

When Mary and Joseph brought the baby Jesus to the temple in Jerusalem, and the aged Simeon saw Jesus, that which he testified of Him was this saying, “mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel” (Luke 2:30-32). This is no different than what we see in the beginning of Isaiah 60.

When, in verses 10 and 11 (of chap 60), we read of Zion, “kings shall minister unto thee,” and “their kings may be brought” into her open gates, does this not speak of those kings and rulers which, during the NT church age, were granted faith in the Saviour of the world, and brought kingly gifts to the house of the King of kings? The Scriptures speak of only two ages (Matthew 12:32; Galatians 1:4; Mark 10:29,30; Luke 20:34,35; Titus 2:11-13), why posit a third age, a “golden” one, between this present age and the eternal “age” to come?

In verses 18 through 22 (of Isa 60) we see a breaking through the scenes of Zion’s glory in the present age intimations of the eternal age just mentioned. Concerning verses 19-21,

The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the Lord shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.

Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself:for the Lord shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.

Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.​

Of this passage E.J. Young says in his commentary, The Book of Isaiah,

Isaiah returns to the thoughts with which he had begun this chapter, namely that Zion will be light, majestically unfolding this thought, and, as Delitzsch says, opening it up in all its eschatological depth. He sees the future salvation in its fulness, including both the New Testament and the eternal state. With the first advent of Jesus Christ these prophecies received their fulfillment, but that fulfillment will not be realized to its greatest extent until sin is removed and eternity ushered in. (vol 3, p 455)​

Randy, you may assert all you will how that “Isaiah 60…is critical to the proper interpretation of Revelation 21 and 22 in my opinion”, but it is a poor hermeneutic strategy to explicate that which is open and clear by that which is veiled by reason of the lack of eschatological light which characterized the Old Testament age. There is indeed much that can be understood through discerning Old Testament texts used in the New Testament (this is the thrust of almost all of amil scholar G.K. Beale’s work!), but one should not use the unclear to exposit the clear.

2. I didn’t take it as a “dig” at amils, it is just that there are no others save historicists, for whom this is not necessarily applicable.

3. You said, “the context of many of the verses in those chapters [Isaiah 60 and 65] point to temporal events and things. You really have to be biased to deny that the language poses a problem to the eternal state view.” You continue in this sort of vein in your points 4 and 5 also. I think you have an inadequate view of the eternal state. You don’t think there will be material things, such as homes, trees, fruit, work in the eternal state? You don’t think there will be a chronological order to things, as in intervals between actions, words, events, etc? What do you make of Revelation 8:1, “And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour”?

Although it is written “that there should be time no longer” (Rev 10:6), this refers to time as we who are bound within it know. There will be measurement of duration, as the language of Revelation clearly shows, using past, present, and future indicators, yet it will be time in eternity, a thing quite unlike anything we know here in this life.

You say,

when Peter talks about the new heavens and the new earth and the elements being burned up (II Peter 3), the greek word for "elements" really refers to the particular things of the temple worship. I have yet to see that term being applied in a different context. if there is, I would appreciate someone showing me.​

You are referring to the word stoicheion [SIZE=+1]stoiceion[/SIZE] (pl. stoicheia [SIZE=+1]stoiceia[/SIZE]), which, in 2 Peter 3:10, 12, does not have the meaning you indicate. In Galatians it does not have the meaning it does in 2 Peter. This may be what has confused you. From a couple of Greek dictionaries:

A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature / BAGD 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] Ed., p. 769a:
​

“elemental substances. the basic elements from which everything in the natural world is made, and of which it is composed..., to disappear in the world conflagration at the end of time 2 Pt 3:10, 12.”​

The Complete Word Study Dictionary, New Testament, Spiros Zodhiates, p 1314:

“Among the ancient Greek philosophers, it designated the four basic and essential elements of which the universe consisted, namely, earth, water, air, and fire. In 2 Pet. 3:10, 12 the word carries this meaning.”​

I really do not believe one can annul the clear statements that “the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up” (2 Pet 3:10), and that, “we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness” (2 Pet 3:13), which is the same “new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and first earth were passed away” we are given to hear of in Rev 21:1. One can’t cram those sayings into a postmil golden period on earth prior to the second coming.

4. I have already discussed this above.

5. You have said, “In the eternal state, no kings exist (I Cor 15: 21-27)”. What then do you make of Luke 19:17, “And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities”, or Matthew 25:21, “His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord”, or Revelation 5:9, 10, “Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth”?

With regard to healing (and I wish, Randy, we could just sit over a cup of coffee and talk about these things – it would be so much simpler), it is not a matter of sin or decay or sickness, for indeed those things are done away with! I hope you do not think that our state – when glorified – is one of absolute perfection and development. Only God has these qualities. For us, the wonder of an eternity with Him is that He is unfathomable, of infinite depth of heart, ever fresh and new, always new glories and wonders to manifest in and from Him, and we shall grow as He reveals Himself and works in our beings, enlarging us, making us new. We will never be bored or weary on this everlasting honeymoon with our spiritual husband and King.

So to envision the phrase, “the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations” as some sort of fresh attuning of our beings to new glories or modes of perception (the Greek word for “healing” there is therapeia) is not far-fetched. The truth of the matter is that there will be wonders beyond our present ken, and we limit the gifts of God with our present feeble imaginations.

What do you make of this saying in both Rev 7:17 and 21:4 “and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes”? Can it be that some profoundly tortured and traumatized souls may be so thoroughly shattered upon arrival in Heaven that God Himself will draw near to so comfort them? No doubt He will comfort us all, but some of our brethren – and sisters – have been diabolically abused. It’s too tidy to say that our being “glorified” zaps us into happiness; I can envision some care being given to us in the transition. In any case, if the vision given John says that the leaves of the tree of life are for healing of some sort (without positing sin or decay or illness), there are some things we just do not know now, yet the word of God is true.

I will be glad to try to answer any objections or questions you may have with regard to the amillennial (or present millennium) school.

 

[Peairtach]

Remember that with the resurrection, ascension and pouring out of the Holy Spirit by Christ, to baptise His true people into Himself, the new creation is here in principle, so to a certain extent the new creation partakes of the "already......not yet". See e.g. II Corinthians 5:17 and Galatians 6:15.

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[RamistThomist]

One thing we need to consider, eschatological presuppositions aside, is that kings on this earth have confessed Christ at one time or another.

So there.

 

[Mushroom]

Deluverbosity alert!

 

[Jerusalem Blade]

Hi Brad! Not sure what your meaning is – I don't think it would be we shouldn't have extended discussions on topics of interest if we speak with substance and not froth.