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Discussion in 'Music' started by Seeking_Thy_Kingdom, Oct 25, 2019.
If he really became Christian he'd switch from rap to bluegrass, that's all I'm sayin'...
Hollywood seems to have its own version of God/Jesus/Christianity. He has started his own worship services, and the choir dresses like it's a Kanye cult. His wife's family all claim to be Christian, and yet they still lead immoral, immodest, proligate lives.
What about his clothing brand Yeezy? It is derived from his name Yeezus which is a take on Jesus, and he has pronounced himself "god" in the past.
Elvis was king, so him merely saying Jesus is king doesn't mean much. Now, if he renounced his Yeezy brand, claimed Jesus is God and Lord, left Hollywood and his extravagant lifestyle, I might be a little more optimistic. Those in Hollywood know they need to constantly reinvent themselves.
God can save Kanye, but I'm not convinced this is the real deal. There is a vast difference between true Christianity and spirituality. Why is Kanye drawing the masses to himself (exclusive, invite-only) instead of a true, biblically ordered church? Why is he selling his Sunday Services (trying to trademark this) merchandise at astronomical prices? Why isn't Adam Tyson more concerned about ministering to those in his own church on the Lord's day rather than traveling the country to perform at Kanye events? Who is following up with the throngs of people that are supposedly being led to Christ?
In the meantime, much discernment is needed before you run out to buy his new album.
I hope his conversion is genuine so PB can start scrutinizing his theology!
I have a question for everyone:
Is it a sin to doubt a profession of sin and repentance?
I ask this because he clearly makes this on the album and his current pastor also backs up his testimony on the Apologia interview.
If we judge someone’s current justification based on a persons past, public or private, then we are all damned.
I think it is wise and prudent to see if the life matches the profession, and this may require time to see genuine fruit. He was "always a Christian" but had some type of conversion because he didn't like the color his hair was dyed at Coachella? Also, his children are now saved because they were all baptized in Armenia recently. Why didn't Adam Tyson discourage this? Satan masquerades as an angel of light and can/does speak right things.
Why is Adam Tyson not discouraging these Sunday Services and rather encouraging Kanye to attend a biblical church? Holding to Calvinism does not make a true and faithful pastor. I don't know Mr. Tyson, but I do question his motives for hobnobbing with Hollywood. The world (Hollywood) is more apt to have a negative influence on a Christian than the other way around. Who is being saved at these services and where is their fruit? Many celebrities who have attended and seem to enjoy the services have publicly criticized the Christian faith they were brought up with (Katy Perry, Brad Pitt). They prefer spirituality over true Christianity.
Time will tell if a true work has been wrought in his heart. Do we really think Hollywood is going to tolerate true Christianity? I'll be waiting and watching.
All this fuss about Kanye and people skeptical of his conversion is not difficult to understand, however I think we owe him a benefit of the doubt. I found this article by J. A. Medders particularly helpful. Especially as he compares this to Augustine's account of the conversion of Victorinus - a celebrity teacher of his day.
"If you wonder what to think about Kanye’s conversion, or the next time a celebrity, professes faith in Christ, look to Augustine. Don’t roll your eyes. Don’t get cynical. Get biblical. Rejoice. Be patient. Praise God. Celebrate fruit. Pray for your family members. May Kanye, you, and me, may we all be useful to the Lord, ready for good works."
Yes, let's do to him as we would want done to us.
The Reformed distinction between the visible and the invisible church is helpful in relation to cases like this one. There is no need for me to personally decide whether or not such and such a person is regenerate. In the long run, by their fruits, you will know them. In the meantime, we exercise the judgment of charity and cautiously hope for the best.
There is nothing in this album to convince me his profession, such as it is, is of true saving faith and I find it astonishing people are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. How many musicians have claimed Christian faith and promoted Christian themes in their work and yet were not Christians? If he is converted the fruit will follow. A hip hop album is not that fruit.
That being said from a cultural point of view it is certainly good that a musician of his fame has released an album called Jesus is King. Already the Satanic left has gone into a meltdown over it so that is very good. Why we then need to go further (than presently warranted) and start embracing Kanye West as a Christian brother is strange to me. I see no evidence of true conversion.
I am currently listening to a rather interesting discussion on the subject on the Red Elephants channel on BitChute. I cannot leave a link to the specific episode here because, regretfully, the presenter has a second commandment violation in the background. While it mentions the album in the title, the discussion focuses more on Kanye West's attitude to moral issues such as p0rnography, fornication, and addictions. (Yes, I know that outwardly reforming one's morality does not equate to a true conversion, but his observations are worth hearing.)
As for the album itself, I have not listened to it nor do I ever intend to do so. I have never listened to any of his music before and have no interest in starting now. Sorry, but I only listen to uninspired hymns for the purpose of making political satire.
Gonna leave this interview here.
He's been leading Sunday services for seven months, but the conversion took place after the services had begun. And just because he has money, doesn't mean he's not doing this for more money.
I've had people both on PB and FB question whether I'm saved or not because I support Socialism. Yet I get attacked for questioning a celebrities conversion? I am simply questioning it and pleading for Christians to tread cautiously, I'm not saying outright that he is not a Christian. The Bible says you shall know a tree by it's fruit, therefore we can judge a person's motives! Are you suggesting that Jesus contradicted the ninth commandment?
I agree that the world is watching, that is why I say that we must be slow to declare someone to be a "Christian". If Kanye turns out to be a liar and does something really stupid, the world will say "see, that's how Christians are!" He is a well known famous person, therefore to the world he is now the spokesperson for all Christians. I pray that he is truly saved, but if he isn't than his fall will effect all of us.
I see your caution, and I agree. After all, Brian Welch is back in with Korn. Brittany Spears professed at one time in her career, and it never bore fruit. Snoop Dogg has been mentioned already. The verdict will be in with long-term fruits. Though, I also fear the effects of unwarranted skepticism which I've made known, more from a fear of speaking wrongly of a true work of the Spirit.
Closed for the Lord's Day by request of the thread author.
Sunday Service at The Forum in LA for those interested, although I would argue it violates the 1st commandment.
He also has a shop selling his Sunday Service merchandise for a lot of money. I'm not linking because it violates the 2nd commandment.
Above Perg mentioned bluegrass. I can remember as a kid in the early 1980's country/bluegrass singer Ricky Skaggs became a Christian and started giving testimonies at his concerts much to offense of his fan base.
Best case scenario with Kanye is that he's in some sort of cage stage. The best thing he could do is to chill out, learn his faith and dial down the personality part. He needs to stop publicly rebuking his wife.
Why is this astonishing? Have you not followed this thread? There is a pastor—a Calvinist, no less—who has spent hours and days with West in person, speaking with him about the gospel, who says that as far as he can tell, West is making a genuine profession.
You don't even know this man. I think it is perfectly fair to trust the testimony of the pastor above mentioned.
In all fairness, we don't know either of these men. I think of the former Calvinistic pastor Doug Phillips who deceived many good men. My point is, it is prudent to wait and see if he bears evidence of fruit meet with repentance.
I question why this pastor would participate in such an event and wear a lanyard with Kanye's blue album disc around his neck.
Why isn't Kanye and family attending a biblical local church? Would Kanye or any of these people involved be interested in sitting quietly listening to a sermon more than 12 min., not dancing or chanting, not being the center of attention, etc. every Lord's Day?
I have followed this thread including the worrying things said about this pastor. I don't know why his being a calvnist- apparently- means Kanye is truly converted? I know nothing about this pastor. Why would I trust his judgment?
I find it astonishing that Reformed folk would have such a low bar for accepting someone's "profession" of Christianity as true. Are we so desperate for any cultural validation that we'll accept anyone who offers the slightest suggestion of Christian faith as a true believer? There is nothing on this album which illustrates even a cursory understanding of the Bible's teachings on Regeneration, Justification, Sanctification or Election, let alone what would be requisite for acceptance as a member in a truly Reformed church. There isn't even anything which I would identify as a fully Biblical understanding of repentance. I do not accept a vague claim of "faith" (what does Kanye understand by saving faith? Please direct me to where he explains his understanding) as proof of conversion and neither do the Reformed confessions.
On the other hand fans are being asked to pay £23 for a ticket to see the accompanying documentary at IMAX cinemas and apparently Kanye West only appears in the film for 7 minutes! Is such money-grubbing consistent with Christian piety? If Kenneth Copeland did the same thing he'd be rightly condemned.
It has been argued that he is a neophyte and is still learning. Well let him continue to learn, let us wait and see if he bears fruit. Until then we do not accept his profession as true. No church rightly ordered by Scripture and the Confessions would accept as a member someone in Kanye West's situation. It would be irresponsible in the extreme.
However, as I have already said, as a cultural phenomenom there are positives here which are not reliant on Kanye being converted or us accepting him as such. To go any further is unwarranted from the evidence we have so far.
I would ask what these "effects of unwarranted skepticism" are? Where would we see these effects? In your church? Not in my church. Which church does Kanye attend? What session has oversight over him? That is the only place that I can see such effects actually playing out but it would be worse for that church to accept him based on the weakest of evidence than to ask him to wait before becoming a member. But since he seems to have started his own church he won't need to worry about such things as right order and discipline.
Time will tell. I've made my concerns known. I will let it rest there. And should we, and let the fruits bear themselves out.
I agree: we should wait. I am not one of the ones advocating we accept his profession as valid right here, right now. I, along with a couple others, have cautioned waiting and have been criticised.
Exactly! I don't know him, I don't know his pastor. Why would I accept their claims? If a stranger walked into your church and asked to become a member and the session refused him would you say to them: "You don't even know this man! Let him sit at the table."? I certainly hope not.
The only people for whom this question has a real practical implication is the session which has oversight over him. They are the ones who are to make the decision whether he be accepted as a member. Who is this session? Which congregation is Kanye attending regularly on the Lord's Day?
I also find it rather amusing that one of the strongest evidences of piety on the album is in his song commending businesses closing on the Sabbath which, based on a recent thread, is a notion ridiculed by some on this forum. Funny how things work out like that.
So far then you and I really do agree.
The difference that I'm perceiving is that I'm not choosing to rule against his profession at this moment, as I fully expect a new Christian to act childish, though I would have serious questions if they don't grow out of it. I am suspending judgment one way or the other. My perception is that you think we definitively pronounce he is still unconverted. I don't find that to be helpful either for reasons I gave already. But if I misunderstood I apologize now for it.
It behooves us to keep much in mind what the scriptures say including warnings such as those in Jude, deceiving spirits, and many others. It is best not to ignore what is being shown to us and not checking discernment at the door. There is nothing that prevents one from praying for Kanye.
If I say I believe he is unconverted I speak as much from an ecclesiastical position as from personal impression. It really makes no practical difference either way to me if he is or not because he is not in any way affiliated with my denomination. My personal impression is that he is not converted but I am more immediately concerned by the rush to accept his conversion as real by Reformed Christians based on the scantiest of evidence. The question really is: would Kanye West, at this moment, be accepted as a member in any of our churches? I think I can say quite categorically that he would not be accepted, at this moment, as a member in my church. I would be concerned if he would in any of the churches represented on this forum.
Exactly. Being sceptical of one's conversion is not to pronounce an anathema upon them. I would hope Kanye West would be converted (if he is not already).
So, are you saying that the bar that validates a person's conversion is understanding (even in a cursory sense) the doctrine of election, for instance, or being eligible for membership in a "truly Reformed" church?
We all agree that the broadly evangelical are deficient in their faith; yet most of us (I think!) would still grant the possibility that they have been converted. I think that it is safe to say that this is the camp in which Kanye would be aligned (his Calvinist pastor/friend notwithstanding). Do we still judge him according to the precepts of a "truly Reformed" church? Or do we extend the possibility that he may be included among the converted - yet broadly evangelical - Christian community?
I know *absolutely* nothing about Kanye or his profession, so I am only affording charity to one who claims to be a Christian. I agree with those who have said that his fruit will demonstrate his sincerity. I just wonder if you are setting the bar a bit high for a (potential) new convert.
I am surprised this is being compared to a session receiving members. Apples and star fruit. Nobody is arguing here that West is in fact regenerate. All I, for one, am simply trying to say is that we have just as valid grounds for assuming the veracity if his profession as not. And we should avoid making either pronouncement, positive or negative, at this point.
I am not debating this further, certainly not with someone who will throw insulting stones at everyone in this forum, like accusing them of having a “low bar” theologically and such, but then cry foul the moment he is opposed.