Joseph Thorburn on God’s affliction of specific persons

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Reformed Covenanter

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There is a purpose in affliction, in each, in all affliction, in the nature of it, in the extent of it, in the duration of it. It does not follow because an individual, or a family, have been afflicted, that they have been sinners above all others. … But it may be fairly concluded by others that they have something to learn — it may be inferred by themselves. They may not know it. They may require to come to God to be instructed in the matter. They may require to come saying, Shew me, Lord, why thou contendest with me!

But I believe it has been admitted by all sufferers, not merely that they required the discipline of affliction, speaking generally, but that they needed that peculiar and special affliction, to accomplish a certain and now ascertained end — an end which was indicated by the affliction wherewith they had been visited. Not that they would allege that no other discipline could have produced this effect, but they perceive a wisdom in that which is employed of the Lord.

For the reference, see Joseph Thorburn on God’s affliction of specific persons.
 
I think we spiritualize illness too much.

One person gets cancer; another does not. We must also read Ecclesiastes where Solomon tells us that time and chance happen to us all under the sun.

Sometimes you simply get malaria because you live in a swamp. It is the price of living there, not because God is particularly trying to single me out to teach me something.
 
Well, the malaria may not be for your sake, but for the sake of another. It may not be for any particular sin on your part, but for some other observer to learn from. Either way, holy use is to be made of it. And -after all- we can agree that sickness is due to sin generally, because it would not otherwise exist apart from plunging into sin by our father Adam. That's not spiritualizing too much, but making a proper use of all things God sends our way, whether it be perceived advancement, or perceived diminishing.
 
Well, the malaria may not be for your sake, but for the sake of another. It may not be for any particular sin on your part, but for some other observer to learn from. Either way, holy use is to be made of it. And -after all- we can agree that sickness is due to sin generally, because it would not otherwise exist apart from plunging into sin by our father Adam. That's not spiritualizing too much, but making a proper use of all things God sends our way, whether it be perceived advancement, or perceived diminishing.
Ok. I did have somebody seriously ask me if my illness was due to some hidden sin on my part. I hope they don't find the bodies.
 
I think we spiritualize illness too much.

One person gets cancer; another does not. We must also read Ecclesiastes where Solomon tells us that time and chance happen to us all under the sun.

Sometimes you simply get malaria because you live in a swamp. It is the price of living there, not because God is particularly trying to single me out to teach me something.

I guess my first response would be. Then, do you think that there are things that happen to us that are not included in the set of "all things" that Paul teaches are good for a believer? (Romans 8:28)
 
I guess my first response would be. Then, do you think that there are things that happen to us that are not included in the set of "all things" that Paul teaches are good for a believer? (Romans 8:28)
I have seen something else under the sun: The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and chance happen to them all. Moreover, no man knows when his hour will come: As fish are caught in a cruel net, or birds are taken in a snare, so men are trapped by evil times that fall unexpectedly upon them.

If God teaches every person who suffers a lessen, then we usually cannot understand these lessons. Illness and suffering strike us inexplicably and seemingly by chance, so we must balance our view of divine sovereignty with the reality that, though God is sovereign and plans all things, we don't know why. And we are usually not given the reason in this life.

Pastorally, it is also not wise to go on and on about God planning your suffering to a person in extreme duress. To tell him God is teaching him a lesson is not what a person in extreme pain wants or needs to hear. Even Job's friends sat and wept with him for 7 days before they began to torment him with their theology.

I just got out of a period of extreme severe and chronic pain for a year. And the Calvinists were the most annoying people to talk to....utterly predictable in their 3 or 4 platitudes (often said smugly).

“Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish”
 
If God teaches every person who suffers a lessen, then we usually cannot understand these lessons. Illness and suffering strike us inexplicably and seemingly by chance, so we must balance our view of divine sovereignty with the reality that, though God is sovereign and plans all things, we don't know why. And we are usually not given the reason in this life.

I don't know that I disagree with much of anything you just said. I was only responding to what I thought might be a belief that things really do happen by chance, and thus God is not all that involved. I probably just misunderstood you.

I would counsel you to try not to grow bitter or too cynical about the stupidity of people who "counseled" you. I agree that we often do not know what God is doing and why. Sometimes he lets us in on it in this life, and sometimes he doesn't. In Job, he never did find out the backstory of how his suffering came about. But he did come to know the Lord profoundly due to his suffering and by God's reproof of him for complaining about it.

Job suffered innocently. God himself said as much. But there was a point to it all.
As I'm sure you know, the Bible itself has a brief commentary on the meaning of the entire book of Job.

James 5:11 ESV
Behold, we consider those blessed who remained steadfast. You have heard of the steadfastness of Job, and you have seen the purpose of the Lord, how the Lord is compassionate and merciful.

I do feel bad for how you've suffered physically, mentally, and at the hands of men. And I don't claim to know why this is happening to you. I would never suggest that I knew. But I do know there was a gracious reason for it all.

Ed
 
Though Job did suffer innocently (I guess that’s the right way to say it?) yet his suffering did bring something in Job out into the open through the discourses, and upon that (which God in his wisdom had of course planned) God was ready to have a word to say to him about it. So perhaps you could say that Ecclesiastes, with its point about time and chance, is shedding light on one point and from one perspective about our sufferings, while Job sheds another important light, and the two don’t contradict each other.

Durham’s Lectures on Job is a brilliant gold mine for this (just used it through Job and it made me cry, that’s always a good sign). The book of Job even includes those dumb Calvinists giving their wrong-headed two cents and only adding to Job’s misery. Yet in spite of their wounding Job with their words, God does, at the end, use the results of all of it to have his own solemn word to speak to his beloved Job, and that’s what results in the greatest blessing Job has ever yet had. Seeing God more as he truly is.
 
I have seen something else under the sun: The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and chance happen to them all. Moreover, no man knows when his hour will come: As fish are caught in a cruel net, or birds are taken in a snare, so men are trapped by evil times that fall unexpectedly upon them.

If God teaches every person who suffers a lessen, then we usually cannot understand these lessons. Illness and suffering strike us inexplicably and seemingly by chance, so we must balance our view of divine sovereignty with the reality that, though God is sovereign and plans all things, we don't know why. And we are usually not given the reason in this life.

Pastorally, it is also not wise to go on and on about God planning your suffering to a person in extreme duress. To tell him God is teaching him a lesson is not what a person in extreme pain wants or needs to hear. Even Job's friends sat and wept with him for 7 days before they began to torment him with their theology.

I just got out of a period of extreme severe and chronic pain for a year. And the Calvinists were the most annoying people to talk to....utterly predictable in their 3 or 4 platitudes (often said smugly).

“Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish”
You have demonstrated one of the reasons God may afflict a person. So that you may understand how to comfort someone else who suffers the same. (2 Cor. 1:4) You have experienced what they experience, and know what may or may not bring them comfort.
 
You have demonstrated one of the reasons God may afflict a person. So that you may understand how to comfort someone else who suffers the same. (2 Cor. 1:4) You have experienced what they experience, and know what may or may not bring them comfort.
Good point.

But some people suffer and die alone with nobody to comfort.
 
Ecclesiastes has been a dear comfort to me. Sadly, so often I cannot find reason or make sense of my circumstances. I could probably try to force some lessons into some of my events in life, but so often they seem so meaningless. I really just try to focus on character growth through my troubles.
 
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