John 3; Water and Spirit

Discussion in 'The Gospels & Acts' started by WrittenFromUtopia, Sep 13, 2005.

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  1. Scott

    Scott Puritan Board Graduate

    martin: Not going to respond to whole article. A couple of points:

    [1] John 3 does not have to be interpreted absolutely, as if no salvation w/o baptism. Jesus says many things that are qualified elsewhere.
    [2] Baptism is more than an outward washing. The spirit channels His grace through it.
    [3] Viewing John 3 as referring to baptism is consistent with many other passages (Titus 3 is just 1). A few examples:

    "¢ Eph. 5:25-27: "œHusbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless."
    "¢ Mark:16:15-16: He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."
    "¢ 1 Peter 3. "In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God."

    There are many more
  2. Brian

    Brian Puritan Board Freshman

    Overview of John\'s Gospel

    John 1
    Jesus as Logos is creator God - Gensis 1
    John the Baptist confirms Christ - Isaiah and Malachi
    Jesus begins the New Israel by calling twelve disciples (tribes)

    John 2
    Jesus manifests His glory by renewing creation (water to wine) and produces faith
    Jesus cleanses the temple, restores true worship

    John 3
    Jesus instructs Israel (in Nicodemus) to become His true seed in the Spirit
    John the Baptist, the best man, identifies Jesus as the groom, so...

    John 4
    Jesus meets a woman at a well (cf. Abraham's servant, Jacob, Moses, Elijah), discusses marriage with her, and all the while is preparing her to become a part of His bride - the Church
    Jesus manifests His glory (by giving life to the sick) and creates faith

    John 5
    Jesus asserts He is greater than angels and Lord of the Sabbath
    Jesus asserts He is greater than Moses and is God's true ambassador, His true federal representative

    John 6
    Jesus asserts sovereignty over matter
    Jesus fulfills the Passover and manna as the bread of life, affirms Eucharist
    Jesus asserts sovereignty over man; effectual call
    Jesus calls the disciples; does not let them leave

    John 7
    The Feast of Tabernacles (remembering the Wilderness wandering and rest) is the scene for Christ to proclaim He is living water (the rock from which the water springs) and that His works and teaching are lawful and able to be judged
    The people are divided concerning who He is, just like...

    John 8
    Abraham and Satan's seed are blinded by truth
    Untruth and lies attempt to trap Jesus with adulterous woman
    But the truth sets her and Jesus free, who is from the Father and is true

    John 9
    The light of Jesus and the darkness of the world/Pharisees collide in one blind man

    John 10
    In light of Pharisees who excommunicate blind man, Jesus is contrasted as true and good shepherd. He fulfills Jeremiah 23 as the shepherd who relieves the flock of the wicked evil shepherds (false prophets)
    Jesus affirms unity with the Father
    Jesus creates faith

    John 11
    Jesus conquers the last enemy in Lazarus

    John 12
    Jesus is anointed for His work, and goes to Jerusalem to be killed (like all the prophets)

    John 13
    Jesus serves himself to His bride by washing her feet and in the Last Supper
    Jesus the Law-giver gives the New Commandment

    And the Passion races to its conclusion...

    What do you think? I realize this doesn't hold to the Book of Signs/of Glory distinction as tightly, but I think this has other strengths. It would be helpful if someone would analyze this from the perspective of the Decalogue. Epochally, Creation, Eden, Fall, Patriarchs, Sinai, Wandering, Prophets are all firmly representated. Anyone see Kingdom emphasized? Does this help/hurt my thoughts on John 3 as covenant seed?

  3. Steve Owen

    Steve Owen Puritan Board Sophomore

    For an old Testament link to John 3:13, try Prov 30:4.

    The Lord Jesus Christ is the answer to Agur's riddle.


  4. Steve Owen

    Steve Owen Puritan Board Sophomore

    Hello Scott,
    You wrote:-
    I agree with you that baptism is not necessary for salvation, but a new birth most certainly is. Look at the text again:-

    "Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God."

    The Lord Jesus uses this 'Amen, Amen' formula to lay stress on His words. I think it is dangerous to imagine that you can water the force of this statement down.

    If this about baptism, then 'most assuredly,' baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. But as I tried to show in my article, I don't think it is about baptism.

    Grace & Peace,


    [Edited on 9-16-2005 by Martin Marprelate]
  5. Scott

    Scott Puritan Board Graduate

    Martin: I understand what you are saying but think we see that sort of thing elsewhere. For example, in Matt. 5:17-19 Jesus strongly affirms the jots and tittles of the Mosaic Law. Yet, elsewhere he and the apostles indicate that the ceremonial laws (as distinguished from say, the ceremonial, law) are gone (eg. Col. 2).
  6. Brian

    Brian Puritan Board Freshman


    Thanks man! I appreciate the link to Proverbs. I just wonder if Proverbs isn't alluding to/relying on Deuteronomy 30:12 - 14; Paul then uses this in Romans 10.

    Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?'
    Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?'
    Deu 30:14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.

    (Paul understands v. 13 to read "down into the abyss.")

    Thanks for the hookup,
  7. Steve Owen

    Steve Owen Puritan Board Sophomore

    Well, I suppose it depends when you think 'all' will be 'fulfilled.'

    John 19:30. 'Tetelestai!'- 'It is finished!'

  8. biblelighthouse

    biblelighthouse Puritan Board Junior

    Good stuff, Martin! That is a good find. :book2:

    Thank you for sharing!
  9. Steve Owen

    Steve Owen Puritan Board Sophomore

  10. Scott

    Scott Puritan Board Graduate

    Martin: I was giving an example that I thought would be taken for granted, as it is a standard reformed view. Even if you don't agree with that, there are many other examples.
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