Jesus helping people get drunk??

[Scott Shahan]

I get together with some guys from church on Saturday mornings and we read the greek NT at a local coffee shop and today we were reading John 2. And the discussion has raised an issue with me about alcohol and getting drunk at the wedding party. I just don't like thinking that Jesus is getting people drunk at the wedding party, I think it is an assumtion. I know that God hates sin and drunkeness is sin. Some of the guys didn't have a problem with the people at the wedding party getting drunk off of the wine that Jesus made... I have a hard time in my thinking that Jesus is "aiding" people in their sin of drunkeness. It just doesn't sit right with me. I want to think about the story that people drank the wine at the wedding party and no one got drunk but enjoyed themselves. I am just wrestling with this, the idea that "hey we ran out of booze and we need more to drink to get drunk so Jesus get us more wine to get drunk on doesn't sit right with me... just thinking out loud... I know the Scripture isn't against drinking alcohol just opposed to drunkeness. ~ Shalom

 

[buggy]

Coming from a prohibitionist background in my teenage days, I can think of one verse that can help you:

“Woe to him who makes his neighbors drink— you pour out your wrath and make them drunk, in order to gaze at their nakedness!" - Habakkuk 2:15

Incidentally, this verse is used by prohibitionists to teach that Jesus cannot have made wine at the wedding party (but grape juice) because if He made wine, then (according to the prohibitionists) He would have sinned by making them drunk, and if He sinned He cannot be the Saviour.

However, notice the words behind: in order to gaze at their nakedness. What is God condemning here? He is not condemning the very act of giving wine to others, but rather the intentions behind it - to give so much alcohol to make them drunk AND then "gaze at their nakedness". Picture a nightclub where some men purposely make women drunk so that they can do "things" to her when she has lost her awareness (due to intoxication).

Such evil intentions are what God condemns. But that certainly is not what Jesus intended - He did this miracle to prove His divinity. It is not what that goes in which is sinful, but rather all evil things come from the heart of men (Mark 7:18-23).

Hope this can help.

 

[ericfromcowtown]

Does it say that people were getting drunk off the wine? I think that you need to make a distinction between enjoying a glass or two of wine and drunkenness. I would have to assume that if aiding others to become drunk is a sin, and if Jesus never sinned, that the wedding guests enjoyed wine (which "make glad the heart of man") without drunkenness.

 

[Rich Koster]

We need to apply discernment. There is a line between merry from wine and drunkenness which leads to debauchery. Just because there is a full dispenser with 5 gallons of wine or 15 gallons of beer does not mean we have to attempt to empty them solo.

 

[Poimen]

If it helps, let us note that the text does not actually say that Jesus or anyone else had the intent to make anyone else drunk nor does it say that anyone is drunk at the time of the dialogue. The master of the feast merely cites an expected custom without stating in so many words that this is happening at this moment. Of course it may have been the intent of many to be drunk but we are not led to believe that this was the intent of Jesus.

Additionally, I would look at this issue (more broadly) in the following manner: God gives food to man. Man is a glutton with his food. God blesses man and man is responsible for turning it into a curse. Though God gives the food (preceptive will) all the while knowing that man will abuse it (decretive will) man takes the blame for sinning. Wine, or any other substance that can be abused, is never sinful in and of itself. We must learn to be sanctified or 'sober minded' in these areas of Christian liberty instead of turning everything into a 'do not taste, do not touch' kind of rule. (Colossians 2:21) Otherwise we will not become mature in our sanctification and make everyone follow a man made rule that does not edify or instruct in righteousness.

 

[nicnap]

That's like saying, you drive a nice car; I stole it because you parked next to me in the parking lot. The object isn't the evil thing, people are.

 

[MarieP]

I get together with some guys from church on Saturday mornings and we read the greek NT at a local coffee shop and today we were reading John 2. And the discussion has raised an issue with me about alcohol and getting drunk at the wedding party. I just don't like thinking that Jesus is getting people drunk at the wedding party, I think it is an assumtion. I know that God hates sin and drunkeness is sin. Some of the guys didn't have a problem with the people at the wedding party getting drunk off of the wine that Jesus made... I have a hard time in my thinking that Jesus is "aiding" people in their sin of drunkeness. It just doesn't sit right with me. I want to think about the story that people drank the wine at the wedding party and no one got drunk but enjoyed themselves. I am just wrestling with this, the idea that "hey we ran out of booze and we need more to drink to get drunk so Jesus get us more wine to get drunk on doesn't sit right with me... just thinking out loud... I know the Scripture isn't against drinking alcohol just opposed to drunkeness. ~ Shalom

Did He also make the 5,0000 gluttons? Or the blind men unthankful?

---------- Post added at 05:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:57 PM ----------

Does it say that people were getting drunk off the wine? I think that you need to make a distinction between enjoying a glass or two of wine and drunkenness. I would have to assume that if aiding others to become drunk is a sin, and if Jesus never sinned, that the wedding guests enjoyed wine (which "make glad the heart of man") without drunkenness.

But even if some chose to make what was supposed to be a blessing into a curse by getting drunk, that would have been their own fault, and not that of Christ, right?

---------- Post added at 06:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:59 PM ----------

If it helps, let us note that the text does not actually say that Jesus or anyone else had the intent to make anyone else drunk nor does it say that anyone is drunk at the time of the dialogue. The master of the feast merely cites an expected custom without stating in so many words that this is happening at this moment. Of course it may have been the intent of many to be drunk but we are not led to believe that this was the intent of Jesus.

Additionally, I would look at this issue (more broadly) in the following manner: God gives food to man. Man is a glutton with his food. God blesses man and man is responsible for turning it into a curse. Though God gives the food (preceptive will) all the while knowing that man will abuse it (decretive will) man takes the blame for sinning. Wine, or any other substance that can be abused, is never sinful in and of itself. We must learn to be sanctified or 'sober minded' in these areas of Christian liberty instead of turning everything into a 'do not taste, do not touch' kind of rule. (Colossians 2:21) Otherwise we will not become mature in our sanctification and make everyone follow a man made rule that does not edify or instruct in righteousness.

LOL, I answered before reading your post...get outta my head brother ;-)

 

[Kevin]

Scott, I am more concerned about the practice of evaluating scripture according to what seems right to us, then I am about how much people drank at weddings 2000 years ago

For what it's worth most of these dilemmas are false, because we project modern ideas about drinking back into the past.

 

[Jack K]

Did Jesus help the blind man to sin if he gave him sight and then later the man used that sight to lust after a woman? Did Jesus help some of the 5,000 to sin if he fed them and some of them overate to the point of gluttony?

Jesus gives good things even to sinful people. He gives good things even when we sometime use his gifts to do bad things. And aren't you glad he does?

The point that there's a difference between using wine to loosen up and become merry and using it for total drunkenness is a good point. But even more fundamental is that Christ continues to bless us even though we are undeserving and often mishandle those blessings in some way. I imagine it's very possible some at the wedding misused what Jesus gave them. But let's not let the fact that this particular blessing involved wine, which evokes strong reactions in American church culture, obscure a larger truth.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

You guys might not have access to this but this is the best article on this topic of alcohol I know of.

http://www.puritanboard.com/f39/best-article-i-have-read-alcohol-7813/

 

[Andres]

Forgive ahead of time, because I am going completely off memory since I am at work and without access to my commentaries. I am thinking that it was in a Leon Morris commentary on the gospel of John that I read something to the effect of social implications in providing wine for guests at the wedding party. The family was perhaps not wealthy enough to have enough wine for all the guests and this would have been a sore spot to begin the couples marriage. Essentially by providing wine, Jesus was saving the couple from shame and humiliation and possibly even debt if they had to have someone else supply more wine. Therefore, the purpose of our Lord's provision of wine was to help the couple, not to get the guests plastered.

 

[JennyG]

Scott, I understand your discomfort with that passage - in the same way it has always been a big stumbling block to my daughter. As a student she witnesses an awful lot of drunkenness, and loathes it. I think the only possible answer is as Eric said:

Does it say that people were getting drunk off the wine? ..... I would have to assume that if aiding others to become drunk is a sin, and if Jesus never sinned, that the wedding guests enjoyed wine (which "make glad the heart of man") without drunkenness.

 

[Glenn Ferrell]

Remember: Wedding feasts in that day might last a week. An adequate supply of wine was essential for the celebration. That did not mean they drank excessively in a single meal or day. Secondly, with the large quantity of wine made by Jesus, it is likely a good amount remained at the end of the feast. This, the couple could have sold, and thus had a sum of money to start the marriage, much like the widow miraculously provided for by Elisha.

 

[PresbyDane]

Well Jesus makes wine, but hey God also causes cannabis to grow and we will not impute any foul motives to him on that account.
There is a dimension of human accountability that we must infer to this.
Everything that is good, can be abused, that is a fact.
Case in point being the gospel itself, after having given the gospel Paul anticipates this question "Well should we go and sin some more, so that the grace can grow?"
We humans will always find ways to abuse the good gifts of God, the best of which after salvation being life itself.
So if we reason that God should not give us things we can abuse, he should not give us life in the first place, because as sinners we are ALL bound to abuse it and thus sin against God.

 

[chbrooking]

You guys might not have access to this but this is the best article on this topic of alcohol I know of.

http://www.puritanboard.com/f39/best-article-i-have-read-alcohol-7813/

I don't have access. But the dialog box doesn't explain what the requirements are or tell me what to do about it. What is this forum, and how do I see if I might qualify? Thanks.

 

[SemperEruditio]

I get together with some guys from church on Saturday mornings and we read the greek NT at a local coffee shop and today we were reading John 2. And the discussion has raised an issue with me about alcohol and getting drunk at the wedding party. I just don't like thinking that Jesus is getting people drunk at the wedding party, I think it is an assumtion. I know that God hates sin and drunkeness is sin. Some of the guys didn't have a problem with the people at the wedding party getting drunk off of the wine that Jesus made... I have a hard time in my thinking that Jesus is "aiding" people in their sin of drunkeness. It just doesn't sit right with me. I want to think about the story that people drank the wine at the wedding party and no one got drunk but enjoyed themselves. I am just wrestling with this, the idea that "hey we ran out of booze and we need more to drink to get drunk so Jesus get us more wine to get drunk on doesn't sit right with me... just thinking out loud... I know the Scripture isn't against drinking alcohol just opposed to drunkeness. ~ Shalom

Next time, blame Mary not Jesus. He was just listening to his momma

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

You guys might not have access to this but this is the best article on this topic of alcohol I know of.

http://www.puritanboard.com/f39/best-article-i-have-read-alcohol-7813/

I don't have access. But the dialog box doesn't explain what the requirements are or tell me what to do about it. What is this forum, and how do I see if I might qualify? Thanks.

Click on the Control Panel in the upper right section of the page.

God down the left side of it and you will see My Settings. Under that tab you will see permission groups. Click on that and join the Pub. You will need to read the rules on each of the additional forums you can voluntarily join. FYI, I believe new members need at least 25 posts before they can have access to that area of the board.

 

[Scott Shahan]

LOL!! that's hilarious Frank! Its been so long since ive posted I cant find the smilies anymore??? I've been thinking of Romans 14:21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. So thinking about this verse I don't think anyone at the wedding party was led to stumble into drunkeness. Do you think this verse in Romans can apply to this wedding party? Jesus would know if anyone at the wedding party had a weakness to wine, right? just thinking it out loud...... I just cant wrap my head around Jesus supplying the booze at the party and people falling into the sin of drunkeness because of it. No way would Jesus cause someone to stumble into sin. The Scripture doesnt say anyone at the wedding party got drunk. So these guys I was with on Saturday assuming that people get drunk at wedding parties, well its an assumtion. its eisegesis!!!! God isn't helping people get drunk at the wedding party!! No that isn't how I am going to read that nor think about John 2.

---------- Post added at 02:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:46 PM ----------

Daniel, I like your thinking about this and it is how I think about it also. ~ Shalom

If it helps, let us note that the text does not actually say that Jesus or anyone else had the intent to make anyone else drunk nor does it say that anyone is drunk at the time of the dialogue. The master of the feast merely cites an expected custom without stating in so many words that this is happening at this moment. Of course it may have been the intent of many to be drunk but we are not led to believe that this was the intent of Jesus.

Additionally, I would look at this issue (more broadly) in the following manner: God gives food to man. Man is a glutton with his food. God blesses man and man is responsible for turning it into a curse. Though God gives the food (preceptive will) all the while knowing that man will abuse it (decretive will) man takes the blame for sinning. Wine, or any other substance that can be abused, is never sinful in and of itself. We must learn to be sanctified or 'sober minded' in these areas of Christian liberty instead of turning everything into a 'do not taste, do not touch' kind of rule. (Colossians 2:21) Otherwise we will not become mature in our sanctification and make everyone follow a man made rule that does not edify or instruct in righteousness.

 

[Kevin]

Scott, I would question the assuption that Rom 14:21 means "commit any sin" by stumble. In the context of the passage it seems clear that Paul has something akin to Destruction in mind.

To cause a brother to "stumble" requires a much higher bar then you are suggesting, in my opinion.

 

[KMK]

Scott, I would question the assuption that Rom 14:21 means "commit any sin" by stumble. In the context of the passage it seems clear that Paul has something akin to Destruction in mind.

To cause a brother to "stumble" requires a much higher bar then you are suggesting, in my opinion.

Yes, the context of Rom 14:21 has to do with 'strong' or 'weak' convictions about worship practices not about sin in general. This sin Rom 14 would be for a stronger brother to bind the conscience of a weaker brother.

 

[Scott Shahan]

Ive been talking with pastors and I am thinking differently about this now. Theologically I am ok with or if people at the wedding party were possibly getting "drunk" on the wine that Jesus made. God can decree things that He hates. The WCF has changed my thinking on this, I was narrow in how i was thinking about John 2. The pastors that I read greek with on Saturdays I now know why they can be ok if possibly people were getting drunk with the wine.
WCF - I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions; yet has He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.