issue hits blogosphere- Democrats asked to leave Baptist church

[rmwilliamsjr]

i don't think i have ever seen the instanteous volume of comments that this has provoked in the last few hours.

Religion and Politics Clash
Religion and politics clash over a local church's declaration that Democrats are not welcome.

East Waynesville Baptist asked nine members to leave. Now 40 more have left the church in protest. Former members say Pastor Chan Chandler gave them the ultimatum, saying if they didn't support George Bush, they should resign or repent. The minister declined an interview with News 13. But he did say "the actions were not politically motivated." There are questions about whether the bi-laws were followed when the members were thrown out.

(posted at 7:30am, 5/6/05)

http://www.wlos.com/


i saw it first at:
http://www.livejournal.com/community/ljdemocrats/

followed a link to:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3604552#3604716
where the comments are being added faster than my software will reload the page.

there are several blog search tools that ought to record this volume.
the response will end up a news story in itself.

akin to the traffic that discussed whether Kerry ought to be allowed communion as he didn't opposed abortion.

i bet the big story will be the response, not the action itself *grin*.
....

[Edited on 5-6-2005 by rmwilliamsjr]

[Edited on 5-6-2005 by rmwilliamsjr]

 

[RamistThomist]

Next,
Civil Religion, what a joke!

 

[Formerly At Enmity]

Zoinks!!! my fam started a Baptist church so i'm more than aware of the general goofiness that can occur but this is truly mind-boggling...the good thing is that it gave me a reason to do this...

 

[sastark]

While I can't agree with the reported quote from the pastor ("If you didn't vote for Bush, then repent") I wonder what people's opinions are of bringing under discipline (which is basically what this pastor did) members who consistantly vote Democrat.

Please note - I'm not asking if we should discipline members who do NOT vote Republican - I think there are other ways to vote and still have a clear conscience before God. I'm asking specifically about members who always vote Democrat.

 

[crhoades]

And it's not even election time!

To generate some heat and hopefully some light, here are a couple excerpts from the DNC Platform: Link

Let there be no mistake: what America needs are public schools that compete with one another and are held accountable for results, not private school vouchers that drain resources from public schools and hand over the public's hard-earned tax dollars to private schools with no accountability.

CHOICE

The Democratic Party stands behind the right of every woman to choose, consistent with Roe v. Wade, and regardless of ability to pay. We believe it is a fundamental constitutional liberty that individual Americans - not government - can best take responsibility for making the most difficult and intensely personal decisions regarding reproduction. This year's Supreme Court rulings show to us all that eliminating a woman's right to choose is only one justice away. That's why the stakes in this election are as high as ever.

Our goal is to make abortion less necessary and more rare, not more difficult and more dangerous. We support contraceptive research, family planning, comprehensive family life education, and policies that support healthy childbearing. The abortion rate is dropping. Now we must continue to support efforts to reduce unintended pregnancies, and we call on all Americans to take personal responsibility to meet this important goal.

The Democratic Party is a party of inclusion. We respect the individual conscience of each American on this difficult issue, and we welcome all our members to participate at every level of our party. This is why we are proud to put into our platform the very words which Republicans refused to let Bob Dole put into their 1996 platform and which they refused to even consider putting in their platform in 2000: "While the party remains steadfast in its commitment to advancing its historic principles and ideals, we also recognize that members of our party have deeply held and sometimes differing views on issues of personal conscience like abortion and capital punishment. We view this diversity of views as a source of strength, not as a sign of weakness, and we welcome into our ranks all Americans who may hold differing positions on these and other issues. Recognizing that tolerance is a virtue, we are committed to resolving our differences in a spirit of civility, hope and mutual respect."

 

[JohnV]

Interesting, Chris, the way you put those two together. Between the lines we can see that the responsibility before birth is on the mother, whether or not she wants the child, without accountability; but after that it becomes a matter of public accountability and personal responsibility is seen as non-accounting.

The question is whether or not political presuasions come under the realm of Church discipline, considering our present political ethos. To put this also into a Canadian context, we have a bit of a curious situation here in Canada. The Liberal Party is in trouble over the Sponsorship scandal, and so has put the same-sex proposition on the backburner. So they might be saved from an impending problem: with Ratzinger in the RCC White House (sorry, U.S. brothers, no offence intended) we just might see Martin & Co. put out of the church (because they are Catholics), not just out of office. It's a possibility.

On the other hand, the Canadian public has beed faced with two very unwanted possibilities: either re-elect a corrupt Liberal government, or elect a Conservative government which will try to re-introduce a form of morality again, but with big business the driving force behind it. The latter is seen as a step backwards; the former is seen as continuing the Status Quo, even if it is corrupt.

But what are the churches doing? Is someone's own political views an indifferent matter to the Church? If someone from the Church votes Liberal in the next election, is that person not defying his own creed? The Liberals are both internally corrupt and outwardly bent on immorality. Is is not, like Seth said, a matter of discipline in the Church?

 

[Bladestunner316]

Where does it say in Holy Writ you must vote for Bush or anyone specifically? And if you dont your excomunicated?

Blade

 

[rmwilliamsjr]

i understand that when i study something it becomes a driving force and i see it reflected everywhere. so forgive me a little for this analogy.

i'm working on my sunday school classes on the american civil war.
several topics are related to both the abortion issue and the bigger issue of enforcing church discipline.

one is the Presbyterian ideal that the Church and State are distinct. interpenetrating, overlapping jurisdictions, yes, but still distinct things. a common thread in how Presbyterians handled slavery, especially in the South was to label it either socio-political and hence outside the realm of the Church or as adiaphoria-things not essential where Christian conscience would decide on an individual basis, not a church wide one.

This 'allergy' to political declarations is a distinctive that i have seen up close in both the OPC and PCA. A quick study of Machen and his stance on prohibition would show this as well, there are things that are moral issues but not church stances.

It was the abolitionists that 'moralized' the slavery debate, both the desire for peace and unity in the church and the complexity of the issue kept Presbyterians from tackling it for several generations.

now what does this have to do with either abortion or church discipline?
in many ways, the conservative church in america over the last 25 years has repudiated these two ideas: adiaphoria and no-political-pronouncements and has firmly embraced the opposite, partisan political involvement, even to the point that to most of my secular friends Christianity=Republican, and they are not at all surprised at this news item.

i would be curious if any one knows of an extended study of how abortion was politized. especially studies that would compare it to either prohibition or the issues of slavery.

tia

...

 

[RamistThomist]

Ok, I was picking at NeoCons earlier. Here I comment on the moronism of Dems:

Let there be no mistake: what America needs are public schools that compete with one another and are held accountable for results, not private school vouchers that drain resources from public schools and hand over the public's hard-earned tax dollars to private schools with no accountability.

They finally realize that little Johnny can't read. It reminds me of an old folk song,

How many times can a man turn his head and pretend he just doesn't see?

 

[JohnV]

What d'ya mean "old"? That was written when I was a kid.

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

I read about that song once in a sociology textbook, John!

 

[JohnV]

Whoa!

OK, that's it. If I'm so old, then why can't I remember bobby socks, the seam up the back of her hose, and sock hops?

Oh, wait, I do remember those.

OK, what about Red Skelton jokes: Why is he skipping? Because his doctor told him to take his medicine on day and skip a day: this is his day to skip. OK, so maybe I'm a little old. But a sociology book? I miss my cacoon.

 

[turmeric]

Boy, you have NO idea what it was like...we had to walk forty miles through the snow to go to school in the one-cave schoolhouse - that is, if the saber-tooth tigers weren't wandering about!

 

[Solo Christo]

Gosh, I'm glad I didn't have to go to school with you! I mean, we also had to walk to school forty miles in the snow--but at least we had newspaper to staple to our feet (for shoes that is) when we were kids. Man, you guys had it rough!

 

[turmeric]

 

[RamistThomist]

Originally posted by turmeric
Boy, you have NO idea what it was like...we had to walk forty miles through the snow to go to school in the one-cave schoolhouse - that is, if the saber-tooth tigers weren't wandering about!

I actually did run to school in the snow I few times (about 3.5 miles).

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Minister resigns

Looks like the guy resigned and is moving on.Christianity Today reports resignation

 

[Anton Bruckner]

I'm glad I'm not in that church. That Church exemplifies what Christian Liberty is. Makes me scared of what woud happen if the reins of the country get turned over to ultra conservatives like the Pat Robertson types. It will be nothing more than religious tyrrany, like how the Pharisees held sway over 1st century Jerusalem.

 

[RamistThomist]

On one hand I rejoice when Democrats squirm, but on the other I get annoyed at NeoCon religion, which is what I see here.

 

[Poimen]

Originally posted by Slippery
I'm glad I'm not in that church. That Church exemplifies what Christian Liberty is. Makes me scared of what woud happen if the reins of the country get turned over to ultra conservatives like the Pat Robertson types. It will be nothing more than religious tyrrany, like how the Pharisees held sway over 1st century Jerusalem.

 

[Poimen]

Originally posted by Draught Horse
On one hand I rejoice when Democrats squirm, but on the other I get annoyed at NeoCon religion, which is what I see here.

Just curious: What is your definition of "NeoCon religion?"

 

[RamistThomist]

Giving religious approval to the Republican Party, no matter what it does. NeoCon religion--while having sincere Christians in it--will overlook any of the GOP's policies that contradict scripture (and the Constitution, for that matter) because we have a Christian president and he is doing what he knows best, or something like that.

 

[Puritan Sailor]

So should people who support abortion be excommunicated? Perhaps we must look at this situation as an issue based problem rather than political party affiliation.

 

[crhoades]

Originally posted by puritansailor
So should people who support abortion be excommunicated? Perhaps we must look at this situation as an issue based problem rather than political party affiliation.

Should we define "support"? I assume that by casting a vote for a candidate/party that has it on the platform would constitute support in this case.

Even the RC church tried denying mass to John Kerry...

 

[RamistThomist]

Originally posted by puritansailor
So should people who support abortion be excommunicated? Perhaps we must look at this situation as an issue based problem rather than political party affiliation.

He would have had a stronger case that way.

 

[Anton Bruckner]

Originally posted by Draught Horse
Giving religious approval to the Republican Party, no matter what it does. NeoCon religion--while having sincere Christians in it--will overlook any of the GOP's policies that contradict scripture (and the Constitution, for that matter) because we have a Christian president and he is doing what he knows best, or something like that.

the above is exactly why I was banned from Raptureready.
The motto for most evangelicals seem to be, "Bush and Republicans are Impeccable, Democrats, Liberals thoroughly evil".

Funny thing I used to think like that until realizing the real deal behind the war in Iraq. But that's another thread. Let me say, I have dumped both political parties.

 

[Larry Hughes]

Keon,

I'm with you brother. I've been a life long Ronald Reagan Republican (before conversion for me), and I've been thoroughly disgusted with the Republican party in the recent years.

I've some pretty liberal friends that are pro-environmental (the field I work in) that constantly would bring up issues about the "Christians" in the Republican Party not caring about the environment because of the pending end of the world (the Rapture/Dispensationalist garbage). So, I'd have to set an apologetic showing how that view by those Republican/Dispensatinoalist is completely contra Scripture, especially their view of environmental abuse (in the form of consumerism). Then go back on the other side and discuss the abortion issue. In the heat of it I had to begin rethinking who (party) could I support?

Then there is President Bush's and his administrations constant reference to "people of faith" which is apparently code for a pantheon of gods.

So, I'm not sure what to think of the Republicans. On the one hand we have the Democrats who are more like open sinners and the on other the Republicans who are more like false saints. Many Republicans I know feel the same way today.

Michael Horton had a great quote the other day on WHI that is somewhat relevant - it was about what a town would look like if Satan ran it? Our gut reaction is a drunken pool hall, strip joints, crime ski high, rebels, etc... But he said, "If Satan ran a town it would likely have white picket fences in every yard, well behaved children, well kept homes, law abiding citizens, every single one of which went religiously to a church every single Sunday that never REALLY preached Christ (Gospel) though His name be mentioned much and as a moral example. Pretty much Utah."

ldh

 

[Peter]

Originally posted by Slippery
Let me say, I have dumped both political parties.

But as Patrick pointed out, by reductio ad absurdum, our political views are subject to the authority of Christ and violations of Christ's will concerning politics ought to be disciplined by the Church.

[Edited on 5-12-2005 by Peter]

 

[RamistThomist]

In the heat of it I had to begin rethinking who (party) could I support?

Think third-party. Don't make any radical (if we can even call it that, given the recent betrayal) switches just yet, but it is something to consider. The Constitutional Party has the problem of a few amendments which are unbiblical and unconstitutional. Nevertheless, it seeks to protect God-given liberties.

 

[RamistThomist]

Great Horton quote, by the way.