Israel in scripture

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ReformedWretch

Puritan Board Doctor
More notes I have taken from Gentry's "He shall have Dominion"

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Israel in scripture:

Israel in the Old Testament is the forerunner of and the continuous with the New Covenant phase of the church which is the fruition if Israel. New Testament Christians may even call Abraham our father and the Old Covenant peoples our "œfathers".

Romans 4

16That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring--not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

1 Corinthians 10

1I want you to know, brothers,[1] that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea,

We are grafted into Israel.

Romans 11
16If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root[1] of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."

We were made ONE with Israel partaking of her promises!

Ephesians 2
11Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands-- 12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,[1] but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,

In fact, Christ chose 12 disciples in order to serve as the spiritual seed of a new Israel taking over for the 12 sons of the Old Covenant Israel. Both the names of the 12 sons and the 12 apostles are incorporated into the one City of God, the New Jerusalem.

Revelation 21
12It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed-- 13on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. 14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Terms that the Church is called in the New Testament that associates her with Israel.

-Seed of Abraham
-The Circumcision
-A royal Priesthood
-Twelve Tribes (James 1:1)
-The Temple of God

1 Peter 2
5you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6For it stands in Scripture: "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone,
a cornerstone chosen and precious,
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."
7So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, "The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,"[1]
8and "A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense."They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
9But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

1 Peter 2
10Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Titus 2
14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.




The Church is flat out referred to as the Israel of god!

Galatians 6
16And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

The ENTIRE book of Galatians speaks to the incorrect notion that there is some "œspecial" status amongst the Jews for being Jewish!

Galatians 3
26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave[1] nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


WHY would Paul believe or speak to a "œspecial section" of God´s people (The Israel of God) when he had taught this?

Galatians 6
15For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

Now we DO need to understand that the Church is NOT a "œstraight line" continuation of Israel! The church FULFILLS Israel through Christ.

2 Corinthians 1
20For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory.


Galatians 3
29And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

Romans 8
17and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Ephesians 1
23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

Colossians 2
10and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.





Scripture clearly tells of this in the Old Testament.

Jeremiah 31
31"Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah

This NEW covenant was started with the Lords Supper!

Matthew 26
28 for this is my blood of the[1] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Mark 14
24And he said to them, "This is my blood of the[1] covenant, which is poured out for many.

Luke 22
20And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.[1]

Notice here that it is NOT said that he is a minister of a second covenant or another new covenant!

2 Corinthians 3
6who has made us competent[1] to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Look at Hebrews 8 that CLEARLY speaks of the NEW covenant! There are NOT two covenants still in force here as the text clearly teaches!

Hebrews 8
1Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2a minister in the holy places, in the true tent[1] that the Lord set up, not man. 3For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. 4Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. 5They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, "See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain." 6But as it is, Christ[2] has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.
8For he finds fault with them when he says:[3] "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
9not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,
and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
11And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more."
13In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Paul PLAINLY teaches that the conversion of the Gentiles is a "œconfirming of the promises to the fathers".

Romans 15
8For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God's truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs, 9and in order that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written, "Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles,
and sing to your name."
10And again it is said, "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people."
11And again, "Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles,
and let all the peoples extol him."
12And again Isaiah says, "The root of Jesse will come,
even he who arises to rule the Gentiles;
in him will the Gentiles hope."

The preaching of the gospel is the hope of the Jews!

Acts 26
6And now I stand here on trial because of my hope in the promise made by God to our fathers, 7to which our twelve tribes hope to attain, as they earnestly worship night and day. And for this hope I am accused by Jews, O king!





Look, the promises to Israel did NOT set forth a literal, political kingdom, but a spiritual, gospel kingdom!

Acts 13
32And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers, 33this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm, "'You are my Son, today I have begotten you.'

Could it get ANY clearer at all?????

Why yes, yes it CAN get more clear!

Romans 2
28For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

The Old Testament does indeed refer to the Church.

Hosea 1
9And the LORD said, "Call his name Not My People,[1] for you are not my people, and I am not your God."[2]
10[3] Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or numbered. And in the place where it was said to them, "You are not my people," it shall be said to them, "Children[4] of the living God."

Hosea 2

23and I will sow her for myself in the land.
And I will have mercy on No Mercy,[1]
and I will say to Not My People,[2] 'You are my people';
and he shall say, 'You are my God.'"

How do we know this refers to the Church? Why Paul tells us!

Romans 9
24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,'
and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'"
26"And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,'
there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"





The "œChurch" was only a mystery to the Gentile Nations! But the Church was clearly revealed in the Old Testament however to the Jews!

Ephesians 3
3how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. 4When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. 6This mystery is[1] that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Luke 24
44Then he said to them, "These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." 45Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46and said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

The distinction between Jew and Gentile has forever been done away with! Paul points this out!

Ephesians 2
11Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands-- 12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

Colossians 3
11Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave,[1] free; but Christ is all, and in all.
 

SmokingFlax

Puritan Board Sophomore
It's amazing how many times I read those same verses and never saw the implications because my own dispensational goggles.
 

ReformedWretch

Puritan Board Doctor
I know the feeling, but I take comfort in this, the minute someone showed me this I believed it! My problem was that I had never seen it on my own nor had it ever been pointed out to me.

It's almost like it was hidden from me! But yet the minute I was presented with it my eyes were opened! It was quite the experience!
 

Anton Bruckner

Puritan Board Professor
Houseparent, I don't want to side track your thread, or to make you proud or anything, but from reading your posts here and on raptureready, I think you have the passion and knowledge with regards to Preterism and debating the Dispensationalists.

I don't want to see all your posts go to waste, so I suggest you start writing a book.

You can literally churn out volumes on this subject. So I hope you get cracking soon.

The sad thing I realize while you are debating on raptureready is that as soon as a thread gets worn out and goes to the bottom, there goes all your writings.
 

turmeric

Megerator
Okay, preterists, try this one,

Jeremiah 33:14-end of chapter

I get it about Christ the Son of David, the Branch of Righteousness, but what about God's promise to continue the Levitical priesthood? Before you say "that's Jesus too" remember that the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews spends a lot of time pointing out that Jesus is not a priest after the order of Levi, but the order of Melchizedek.

PS. I'm looking for a Dispensational-free explanation, my mind is open.
 

turmeric

Megerator
You seem dismissive but haven't answered the question. What do you mean? They don't have someone now, nor do they sacrifice. What part of always don't you see? If not now, when? And what about Melchizedek? Christ ISN'T a Levite, the author of Hebrews says He's not.
 

ReformedWretch

Puritan Board Doctor
Thanks Keon, but it was Paul here who got me rolling and Kenneth Gentry who keeps me going! (I mean other than the Lord of course who used both these men in my life).

I would LOVE to write a simple, easy to understand book on this subject for those, like me, who had never even heard this view before. You know, sort of like "The end times for dummies".:D
 

Anton Bruckner

Puritan Board Professor
I suggest you start cracking. I'm serious dude. I know a lot of people that need to hear that stuff.

Preterism has the stereotype of being the view of arrogant snobby intellectual christians, where as Dispensationalism has the view of being the perspective of the realistic christian. That needs to change.

And since you have that ability thanks to Paul and Kenneth, it wouldn't hurt to write. The worse thing that can happen is that you finish the book and few read it. But even in that, there will be great good since you will be able to to refine your views.
 

ReformedWretch

Puritan Board Doctor
Preterism has the stereotype of being the view of arrogant snobby intellectual christians, where as Dispensationalism has the view of being the perspective of the realistic christian. That needs to change.

Well that is an intresting take!

And it may explain how I went 34 years without ever hearing of it!
 

DeafPosttrib

Inactive User
Meg,

Jeremiah 31:31-34 already has been fulfilled by Jesus Christ through calvary 2,000 years ago as it refer to Hebrews 8:10-13. The old covenant already vanish away by Calvary 2,000 years according to Hebrews 8:13. Now, we are under the new covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 do not saying anything about 'a thousand years'. It speaks of prophecy of the new covenant with Israel, already fulfilled through Calvary according to Hebrews 8:10-13.
 

DeafPosttrib

Inactive User
OOOPS!!! Wrong verse as what Meg said. Excuse me.

But, Jer. 33:14 does discuss about the covenant with Israel is samiliar with Jer. 31:31-34 clearly.
 

Anton Bruckner

Puritan Board Professor
Originally posted by OS_X
Or..... you could really be arrogant......
maybe, but I doubt it. People misinterpret arrogant to be holding on to your position without compromise.

This is what both the Preterists and the Dispensationalists does, its just that the Preterists seems to be more diligent in studying the scriptures, and the historical context as opposed to newspapers.

A preterist usually has to study, First Century History in detail in relation to the Roman Empire and Israel. They have to study the emperors as well as the mindset of the Jewish people in relation to their writings.

A dispensationalist just has to study the newspapers and force current events to fit their model.

A dispensationalists look forward to Damascus becoming ruinous, a Preterists examines History and finds that Damascus became ruinous by Tiglath Plesner.

[Edited on 12-1-2004 by Slippery]
 

D. Paul

Puritan Board Sophomore
Help me.

Care is needed to avoid equating the spiritual seed of Abraham with Israel. Nowhere in all of scripture are believers referred to as the "œnew Israel" as Covenant Theology asserts. The term "œIsrael" always refers to the physical offspring of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob¾not the church. Even the "Israel of God" (Gal_6:16) refers to that portion of the physical offspring of Jacob which has faith in God.

This is a quote from Tony Garland of http://www.SpiritAndTruth.org

Maybe I am simply too dense, but is this a consistent statement regarding CT?
Houseparent (Adam) The battle I mentioned to you in the other thread stems from teachings from Les Feldick (familiar?) but I cannot seem to get a handle on this. Is it enough to see "The Church" as the continuation of Israel? That I can do. But is this what the above statement is saying?
 

Puritanhead

Puritan Board Professor
I'll never understand Dominion theology... that theonomic postmil embrace-- it seems like they really stretch the dominion mandate by loading it up with inferences about subduing the world and bringing it under the law, as well as the church. Is there a succinct tract online that explains this and handles this charge or accusation? Surely they hear it all the time.
:candle:
 

tcalbrecht

Puritan Board Junior
Originally posted by Puritanhead
I'll never understand Dominion theology... that theonomic postmil embrace-- it seems like they really stretch the dominion mandate by loading it up with inferences about subduing the world and bringing it under the law, as well as the church. Is there a succinct tract online that explains this and handles this charge or accusation? Surely they hear it all the time.
:candle:

It's not called "dominion theology" except by its detractors. Christian Reconstruction; What It Is, What It Isn't

[Edited on 22-12-2004 by tcalbrecht]
 

Robin

Puritan Board Junior
Gentlemen, may we aspire to a more aerial viewpoint? Please let us remember that Christ is the Israel of God (and the Church is, only as she is tied to Christ); that the Kingdom of God is NOT the Church - though the Kingdom is in heart of the Believer where Christ reigns. There are many different senses of the word "Israel". This article below explains why mistaken views happen - as they misunderstand the eschatology of Scripture. :book2:

"The Israel of God" by Dr. Scott Clark @ Westminster...

http://public.csusm.edu/guests/rsclark/Israel.htm
 

VERITAS

Puritan Board Freshman
Originally posted by Paul manata
From Charles Provan's: The Church is the Israel of God (Rosshouse Books).

Just wanted to correct the title Paul. It's "The Church is Israel Now: The Transfer Of Conditional Privilege" by Chuck [Charles D.] Provan. Available at Chalcedon E-Store: http://www.chalcedonstore.com/page/.../category_id/c1ad628afddfec28d98fba11fbc1c13e
for $10. As Paul pointed out it is a more a compilation and comparison of Scripture verses than a typical doctrinal treatise.
 

Puritan Sailor

Puritan Board Doctor
Originally posted by Paul manata
17 For thus saith Jehovah: David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
18 neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt-offerings, and to burn meal-offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.


The Levites don't want a man to offer offerings since Christ continually offers offerings.

Just to get back to this point, Paul is right Christ has fulfilled it. You also have to remember that Jeremiah is accomadating to the people he is preaching to (this concept will also help with the other prophets too). They don't understand the NT administration yet because it's hundreds of years away. So he, in order to explain these truths, explains it in a way they will understand. Jeremiah is prophecying about a time when the people of God shall never lack a mediator before God, nor lack an atonement for sin, nor be seperate from Him; unlike the time they will be facing in the immediate future with the destruction of the Temple and the whole sacrificial system, by the Babylonians. Such a tradgedy to us seems silly, since it's just a building, but to them, it meant being cutoff from God, no communion, no atonement, no presence of God dwelling among them. Jeremiah is essentially telling them that God will not forsake them utterly but bring His people to a "better" time and administration of His grace. It's a message to give them hope for the coming Messiah, the Son of David. :2cents:
 

VERITAS

Puritan Board Freshman
Originally posted by turmeric
...what about God's promise to continue the Levitical priesthood? Before you say "that's Jesus too" remember that the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews spends a lot of time pointing out that Jesus is not a priest after the order of Levi, but the order of Melchizedek.

Hi Meg, I'm new here and have already (apparently) ticked off some folks so I'm a little reticent to point out what appears (to me) to be the obvious. Either:

1) God fulfilled His promises in Christ
or
2) He broke His promises

Since we don't believe #2 based on Scripture verses (Rom 15:8; Gal 3:15, 17) and the character of God, then barring a 3rd option (?) we must believe that these promises were fulfilled in Christ. But this is a crucial question to ask modern Jews seeing as how without Christ (or some other ancient Jew who fulfilled these promises) their god appears to have failed them.

I've argued this with them regarding the Messiah promised in Daniel 9:25ff with the prophecy of the 490 years. Verse 25 talks about the restoration of Jerusalem, and then verse 26 immediately talks about both the city and the sanctuary being destroyed (!) and then in verse 27 it says that He [the Messiah] shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease(!). Daniel 10 goes into Daniel's fast upon hearing these seemingly awful things and then the angel coming to foretell the future events leading all the way through to Herod the Great (Dan 11) and up through to the Messiah who causes many of them that sleep (cp Matt 27:52) in the dust of the earth to awaken.

Hope this helps.
--Cheri
 

VERITAS

Puritan Board Freshman
No, that's cool. :cool: Birds of a feather, ya know... I prefer for people to be direct and passionate about their beliefs. If you're gonna believe something, then by all means believe it!

I am trying to learn to be a little less rabid myself though. I was talking to a buddy the other night who was out at a restaurant with some friends, so naturally I asked where and realizing that I was close by decided to "buzz the tower." I asked if they were near a window and told him to look for me driving by. I laid on my air horn (much to the shock and displeasure of the 4-wheelers around me). He told me tonight that he had showed one of his buddies my picture that night and the guy asked why he didn't invite me to come in and eat with them. He said that he wouldn't have the two of us meet in a million years because all it would take would be one comment about religion or politics or something and he would have to take a water hose to the two of us! I wonder how many other free meals I've missed in the past because someone is afraid I might open my mouth?!?!

(And I've always thought it was the size of my truck that scared people...)
 
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