Israel and Jesus... Understanding?

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Christopher88

Puritan Board Sophomore
So I'm reading and studying more on Covenant Theology and trying to understand bits of Dispensationalism.
I'm going to post things and if you could please tell me if I am correct.

Dispensationalist believe the Jews of Israel will be saved.
Covenant theology believes Israel (Jewish people) who did not convert to Christ have gone against God's covenant and are not saved.


In other words under Dispensational theology, there is still Jews who are God's people and Christians, but both are saved?

Please explain if I am wrong or even right. Thanks.
 

Rufus

Puritan Board Junior
Most Dispensationalists probably wouldn't say Jews who are unbelievers are saved, but it is an ever increasing and more popular view espoused by some.

Edit: I was convinced that John Hagee believe that Jews are also saved because of there Jewishness, but wikipedia didn't seem to specify if that was true or not.
 

Christopher88

Puritan Board Sophomore
Most Dispensationalists probably wouldn't say Jews who are unbelievers are saved, but it is an ever increasing and more popular view espoused by some.
To add to this conversation. Why do dispensationalist believe there are two set prophecies, one for the church, one for Israel?

They strongly believe Israel is another chosen group, which would indicate to me the hold Jewish people to salvation to come. (I firmly disagree with that stance)
 

jwithnell

Moderator
Staff member
Romans 11 indicates an increase of those saved from amongst the Jews before the end of this age -- but they would be saved by faith just as all of God's people through all time.
 

Peairtach

Puritan Board Doctor
Some Covenant Theologians, believe in a future conversion of the Jews, and the more consistent ones In my humble opinion, believe there is still a special place for the Jews and some Jews (some of "Israel after the flesh" I Cor.10:18) will always constitute a part of "the Israel of God" (Gal 6:16), the Church. This is taught in Romans 11 and by many Covenant Theologians like Charles Hodge, John Murray and many of the Puritans (see "The Puritan Hope" by Iain Murray, B.o.T.)

Other Covenant Theologians, like O.Palmer Robertson, believe that there will always be a small number of Jewish believers, but that God has finished with dealing with the Jews in a particular way, and that there won't be a future Jewish conversion to spoil amillennialism.

I presume if you take the latter view you will be unlikely to see any reference to the return of Israel after the flesh to the land or to faith in the OT prophecies, whereas if you take the former view you will be more likely to see that, as at least an aspect of what's being foretold.

Dispensationalism - as opposed to Covenant Theology, which is the Reformed way of approaching Scripture - dates only from about 1830 and divides the Bible up in a strange and unwarranted way, has a "literal" approach to future prophecy even when it is indicated in Scripture that it is symbolic, gives "Israel after the flesh" a central rather than peripheral place in the New Testament, is always pre-mil, has funny ideas about "the Rapture", and is the closest thing to science fiction that evangelicalism has.

John Darby (evangelist) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Christopher88

Puritan Board Sophomore
Richard,
you made mention that some older reformers thought Jews would be part of the "chosen". However my question goes to this; can the Jewish people be saved in faith with out accepting Christ?
I do not see scriptural warrant for this belief.



As the "chosen" we are under the covenant of grace which is in Christ. Today the Jewish people have broken God's covenant by denying Christ. So why would those who have broken the final covenant be saved?

The argument is the Jewish people were God's people of the Old Covenants, but we know that the covenants pointed towards Christ.

Please continue to help me understand the role of Judaism in today's present Covenant with God. This is so far been enlightening. Thanks.

---------- Post added at 01:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:26 PM ----------

but they would be saved by faith just as all of God's people through all time.
Correct, but is faith without Christ, faith at all?

I fully agree that Judaism at one time before the resurrection of Christ was indeed the correct belief in God, but by the resurrection and denial of Christ the covenant of God was broken once more by the Jewish people. In order to enter into this Covenant first we know it is by election, but in that election it is the calling of Christ Lord. To deny Christ is to break the Covenant and the covenant breakers outcast. May God be the judge of the souls but under scripture God's word I firmly believe this to be truth until proven otherwise by scripture.
 

Peairtach

Puritan Board Doctor
Richard,
you made mention that some older reformers thought Jews would be part of the "chosen". However my question goes to this; can the Jewish people be saved in faith with out accepting Christ?
I do not see scriptural warrant for this belief.

There isn't any, and no orthodox Covenant Theologian or orthodox Dispensationalist would accept that.

Most of the Jews are cut out of the Israel of God, the Church, but are still called "natural branches" by the Apostle Paul.

Romans 11 promises that there will always be Jews in this world, and there will always be some of them that are believers in Christ. So there is always some overlap between Israel after the flesh (the Jews) and the Israel of God (the Church).

It warns against Gentile Christians "boasting against" the natural branches.

Those Gentiles who profess faith, along with their children, are engrafted into the Israel of God.

Israel after the flesh are beloved in some common grace - and also saving way for elect Jews - covenantal way because of the patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) and because our Lord is a Jew.

To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. (Romans 9:5, ESV)

As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. (Rom 11:28)
 

KMK

Administrator
Staff member
I think it is important when discussing the future of Israel to clearly define what the word 'Jew' means.

Does 'Jew' refer to those who worship Judaism as in Gal 1:13,14?
Does 'Jew' refer to those who are from the tribe of Judah from which the word is derived?
Does 'Jew' refer to those who lived in the region of Judea as in Esther 2:5,6?
Does 'Jew' refer to those who are physically related to Abraham through Jacob as in John 8:33?
Does 'Jew' refer to the invisible church as in Rev 2:9?


Dispensationalist believe the Jews of Israel will be saved.

What does the Dispensationalist mean by the word 'Jews'?

No one is saved who does not repent of Judaism and trust in Christ instead.
The thought that there will be some kind of revival in the region of Judah regardless of who lives there seems strange.
If there is a mass revival of those who are related to Judah and Jacob and Abraham it will be invisible because no one can trace their ancestry back that far any more.
If the Dispensationalist means that all of the invisible church shall be saved then I couldn't agree more.
 

JS116

Puritan Board Freshman
Spotting out what a dispensationalist REALLY believes can be tricky.You can ALWAYS tell who is one by asking do they believe Israel and the church are all grafted in to one body.My former pastor wanted to make it clear when I spoke to him that he believes Israel and the church are not the same.He said they have lots of similarities but are distinctly different.Continue to ask questions about the relation to Israel in the old testament to the gentile believers in the new testament.
 

jwithnell

Moderator
Staff member
Correct, but is faith without Christ, faith at all?
Since we are contrasting dispensationalism from covenant theology I thought it was important to note salvific faith as a continuum through time, before and after Jesus.
 
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