Isaiah 51:17 - "The cup of trembling"

[InSlaveryToChrist]

Recently I read one of the best illustrations of the agonies of the cross of Christ (here). The sermon by Andrew Bonar focuses on "the cup of God's wrath" that is seemingly experienced to a measure by both elect and unelect according to the Bible. Here are some questions that I'm struggling with at the moment:

1. Are there different types of cups of God's fury (some for elect, some for unelect; some for regenerate, some for unregenerate)?

2. Did only Christ and people in hell drink of "the [bitter] dregs of the cup of God's wrath"? The emphasis of the aforementioned sermon is this, but ironically a seemingly contradictory Isaiah 51:17 is not tackled with, which leads me to the next question.

3. In Isaiah 51:17, what is meant by the passage that says Jerusalem "hast drunk the dregs of the cup of trembling, and wrung them out"? It seems to me that there are only two viable options here: either Jerusalem refers to Christ or this particular cup is not the cup that Christ and people in hell drunk of.

4. Did Christ drink of the cup of God's wrath throughout His life and finally the dregs of it on the cross, OR only at the cross? The last option would imply that the agonies of Christ during His life outside the cross were either not propitionary toward God and His wrath, OR there was another cup He drank of also (which wouldn't make any sense to me).

I wanna settle this cup of God's wrath thing once and for all! Please, help me and shed some light to the issue!

 

[Peairtach]

Recently I read one of the best illustrations of the agonies of the cross of Christ (here). The sermon by Andrew Bonar focuses on "the cup of God's wrath" that is seemingly experienced to a measure by both elect and unelect according to the Bible. Here are some questions that I'm struggling with at the moment:

1. Are there different types of cups of God's fury (some for elect, some for unelect; some for regenerate, some for unregenerate)?

The regenerate will never be cast into Hell. Also in this life there are different ultimate divine purposes behind the suffering of the elect via-a-vis the non-elect. The elect unregenerate's sufferings are calculated to lead them to repentance, and the regenerate's sufferings to make them more holy. The non-elect's sufferings should also bring them to repentance if they made proper use of them but it is God's purpose that this shall happen only in the elect by His irresistible grace.

2. Did only Christ and people in hell drink of "the [bitter] dregs of the cup of God's wrath"? The emphasis of the aforementioned sermon is this, but ironically a seemingly contradictory Isaiah 51:17 is not tackled with, which leads me to the next question.

3. In Isaiah 51:17, what is meant by the passage that says Jerusalem "hast drunk the dregs of the cup of trembling, and wrung them out"? It seems to me that there are only two viable options here: either Jerusalem refers to Christ or this particular cup is not the cup that Christ and people in hell drunk of.

You're not dealing with discrete or strict theological categories here, but with a biblical metaphor of God's anger being like a cup that must be drunk. The metaphor must be studied in its context in each passage in which it is used to see how it is being used and what it means in that context. I haven't studied the Isaiah passage but presume that it will be talking about Jerusalem having had her fill of God's just wrath for that time and context. Now God was to be merciful and gracious to her again, and give her another gracious "opportunity" to live before Him.

4. Did Christ drink of the cup of God's wrath throughout His life and finally the dregs of it on the cross, OR only at the cross? The last option would imply that the agonies of Christ during His life outside the cross were either not propitionary toward God and His wrath, OR there was another cup He drank of also (which wouldn't make any sense to me).

Christ was the sin-bearer throughout His life, as the one "born under the law" for His people, and therefore all of His sufferings were for our sins, because He had none of His own to suffer for. But His sufferings greatly intensified at the end of His life.

I wanna settle this cup of God's wrath thing once and for all! Please, help me and shed some light to the issue!

You sometimes sound a bit (over?) anxious in your questions, Samuel, but it's probably just your style


Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

Recently I read one of the best illustrations of the agonies of the cross of Christ (here). The sermon by Andrew Bonar focuses on "the cup of God's wrath" that is seemingly experienced to a measure by both elect and unelect according to the Bible. Here are some questions that I'm struggling with at the moment:

1. Are there different types of cups of God's fury (some for elect, some for unelect; some for regenerate, some for unregenerate)?

The regenerate will never be cast into Hell. Also in this life there are different ultimate divine purposes behind the suffering of the elect via-a-vis the non-elect. The elect unregenerate's sufferings are calculated to lead them to repentance, and the regenerate's sufferings to make them more holy. The non-elect's sufferings should also bring them to repentance if they made proper use of them but it is God's purpose that this shall happen only in the elect by His irresistible grace.

2. Did only Christ and people in hell drink of "the [bitter] dregs of the cup of God's wrath"? The emphasis of the aforementioned sermon is this, but ironically a seemingly contradictory Isaiah 51:17 is not tackled with, which leads me to the next question.

3. In Isaiah 51:17, what is meant by the passage that says Jerusalem "hast drunk the dregs of the cup of trembling, and wrung them out"? It seems to me that there are only two viable options here: either Jerusalem refers to Christ or this particular cup is not the cup that Christ and people in hell drunk of.

You're not dealing with discrete or strict theological categories here, but with a biblical metaphor of God's anger being like a cup that must be drunk. The metaphor must be studied in its context in each passage in which it is used to see how it is being used and what it means in that context. I haven't studied the Isaiah passage but presume that it will be talking about Jerusalem having had her fill of God's just wrath for that time and context. Now God was to be merciful and gracious to her again, and give her another gracious "opportunity" to live before Him.

4. Did Christ drink of the cup of God's wrath throughout His life and finally the dregs of it on the cross, OR only at the cross? The last option would imply that the agonies of Christ during His life outside the cross were either not propitionary toward God and His wrath, OR there was another cup He drank of also (which wouldn't make any sense to me).

Christ was the sin-bearer throughout His life, as the one "born under the law" for His people, and therefore all of His sufferings were for our sins, because He had none of His own to suffer for. But His sufferings greatly intensified at the end of His life.

I wanna settle this cup of God's wrath thing once and for all! Please, help me and shed some light to the issue!

You sometimes sound a bit (over?) anxious in your questions, Samuel, but it's probably just your style


Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2

I am anxious most of the time I write here. Normally I'd be playing and wasting my time on computer games, but every once in a while God gives me more of His grace to study His word and regain a proper view of God that leads me to live for Him to a greater measure (which still is so little). I still am churchless, and that is a big stumbling block for me in knowing God more. I believe obedience leads to knowing God more, but I cannot do what I cannot do. I do the things that I don't want to do, wretched man that I am. In fact, a couple of days ago I didn't believe that yet. I always thought I want to sin, but I have been relying on my own eyes too much. I believe through the texts of Scripture (Romans 7) that when there is a want of unconformity to God's law in my flesh, there is also a want of conformity to God's law in my spirit (whether I realize it or not). And both war against each other.

But that aside. I'd have hoped if you could have explained the "cup" language of the Bible to me in answering my questions, but if you haven't studied it in particular, then I need to wait for someone else to respond. Of course I should (and I will) study the passages that I presented myself. It's just helpful if you can get a correct answer right from the beginning, so you don't need to come to your own untruthful conclusions about the text (which I tend to do). That said, I think I will go read some commentaries now.

Anyway, thanks for the help. Your words were not in vain.

 

[a mere housewife]

Samuel I can't answer your questions in the detail you are looking for -- but wanted to suggest: did you look at vs. 22 &23 in Isaiah 51? I love the way the next chapter opens, with the comfort of the gospel. All the prophecies of judgment, and the judgments themselves throughout the OT, prefigure, culminate in, and lead us to the cross.

I loved noticing the last time I read through Isaiah the way the passages of mercy break through the passages of wrath: they seem to be wrestling together and it is so difficult to understand that wrestling until I realised that they are one. Wrath and mercy are both outpoured in the greatest display of God's judgment and God's comfort, on the cross. The passages of mercy become more and more triumphant until they seem to break over the whole book. 'There is therefore *now* no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.'

As Richard was saying -- we don't experience judicial wrath. We experience chastening, which is a covenant blessing (Psalm 73:14,15;23-28). It is no part of the curse. It is part of being drawn 'near to God', part of our inheritance with the saints in light: we are being sanctified to dwell with our Lord perfectly in heaven. It is part of mercy and of our comfort.

I am praying for your church situation and for your daily walk with our lifelong best friend, our Saviour -- it so comforting to me that He doesn't change even when we do. He dwells with us according to our weakness here.

 

[Peairtach]

Recently I read one of the best illustrations of the agonies of the cross of Christ (here). The sermon by Andrew Bonar focuses on "the cup of God's wrath" that is seemingly experienced to a measure by both elect and unelect according to the Bible. Here are some questions that I'm struggling with at the moment:

1. Are there different types of cups of God's fury (some for elect, some for unelect; some for regenerate, some for unregenerate)?

The regenerate will never be cast into Hell. Also in this life there are different ultimate divine purposes behind the suffering of the elect via-a-vis the non-elect. The elect unregenerate's sufferings are calculated to lead them to repentance, and the regenerate's sufferings to make them more holy. The non-elect's sufferings should also bring them to repentance if they made proper use of them but it is God's purpose that this shall happen only in the elect by His irresistible grace.

2. Did only Christ and people in hell drink of "the [bitter] dregs of the cup of God's wrath"? The emphasis of the aforementioned sermon is this, but ironically a seemingly contradictory Isaiah 51:17 is not tackled with, which leads me to the next question.

3. In Isaiah 51:17, what is meant by the passage that says Jerusalem "hast drunk the dregs of the cup of trembling, and wrung them out"? It seems to me that there are only two viable options here: either Jerusalem refers to Christ or this particular cup is not the cup that Christ and people in hell drunk of.

You're not dealing with discrete or strict theological categories here, but with a biblical metaphor of God's anger being like a cup that must be drunk. The metaphor must be studied in its context in each passage in which it is used to see how it is being used and what it means in that context. I haven't studied the Isaiah passage but presume that it will be talking about Jerusalem having had her fill of God's just wrath for that time and context. Now God was to be merciful and gracious to her again, and give her another gracious "opportunity" to live before Him.

4. Did Christ drink of the cup of God's wrath throughout His life and finally the dregs of it on the cross, OR only at the cross? The last option would imply that the agonies of Christ during His life outside the cross were either not propitionary toward God and His wrath, OR there was another cup He drank of also (which wouldn't make any sense to me).

Christ was the sin-bearer throughout His life, as the one "born under the law" for His people, and therefore all of His sufferings were for our sins, because He had none of His own to suffer for. But His sufferings greatly intensified at the end of His life.

I wanna settle this cup of God's wrath thing once and for all! Please, help me and shed some light to the issue!

You sometimes sound a bit (over?) anxious in your questions, Samuel, but it's probably just your style


Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2

I am anxious most of the time I write here. Normally I'd be playing and wasting my time on computer games, but every once in a while God gives me more of His grace to study His word and regain a proper view of God that leads me to live for Him to a greater measure (which still is so little). I still am churchless, and that is a big stumbling block for me in knowing God more. I believe obedience leads to knowing God more, but I cannot do what I cannot do. I do the things that I don't want to do, wretched man that I am. In fact, a couple of days ago I didn't believe that yet. I always thought I want to sin, but I have been relying on my own eyes too much. I believe through the texts of Scripture (Romans 7) that when there is a want of unconformity to God's law in my flesh, there is also a want of conformity to God's law in my spirit (whether I realize it or not). And both war against each other.

But that aside. I'd have hoped if you could have explained the "cup" language of the Bible to me in answering my questions, but if you haven't studied it in particular, then I need to wait for someone else to respond. Of course I should (and I will) study the passages that I presented myself. It's just helpful if you can get a correct answer right from the beginning, so you don't need to come to your own untruthful conclusions about the text (which I tend to do). That said, I think I will go read some commentaries now.

Anyway, thanks for the help. Your words were not in vain.

Sorry about your (lack of) church situation, Samuel. It must be very difficult. We can only pray that God gives you the needed grace in that position, until you find somewhere suitable.

I hope my words were of some help and not too brusque. I think the cup of wrath is basically a metaphor that is used in slightly different ways in different biblical passages. To understand the way it is used you have to look at the context.

I believe obedience leads to knowing God more, but I cannot do what I cannot do. I do the things that I don't want to do, wretched man that I am.

You, and I, and your other brothers in Christ, are in the same position as the Apostle. There nothing good in the flesh, that is what remains of the sinful nature. It is an ever present enemy within, and it breaks out, in some brothers and sisters one way, and in some brothers and sisters in other ways.

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.(Gal 5:17)

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.(I Peter 5:8-10)