Is Your Church Going Purpose Driven?

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SolaSaint

Puritan Board Sophomore
Purpose Driven Church, Heresy or Cult. Yes Peter Drucker methods work well in any environment. Hey you may not be born again but you will have purpose.
 

Pergamum

Ordinary Guy (TM)
Yes, exaggerated details.......he really doesn't steal and eat babieS...it was just that one baby that one time........

No, but he does suggest "stealing and eating" the congregations into his movement. I was part of a SBC congregation that went PD then NAR. It was ugly.

Can you give me proof?

I know that many megachurches swell in number due to "transfer growth" (i.e. lateral movement of church attendees from one church to another) rather than "new gowth" (reaching the unchurched, and servicing those not serviced by others) but this is rarely their intention. Usually their intention is not to steal other people's "sheep" (using the term loosely) but to reached those remaining unchurched people in a community.

It is one thing to report that such things are happening, and quite another (which needs further proof) to show that this was Rick Warren's intention from the outset.

You missed my point. I am talking about an existing congregation that gets taken over by the PD movement way of operating. The congregation I was in had ~ 200 members when PDC started becoming the focus. After about 2 years, when I was given the boot, it was down to 18. I was marginalized and villified because I had the audacity to question the pastor. When he saw that I stood in the way of him taking over, with absolute authority, he had some people lock the doors on Sunday AM and had the police on speed dial to have me arrested if I set foot on HIS PROPERTY (the meetinghouse).

Also, people have started out using Warren's methods , but they modify them to build their own little kingdoms. Some people have started out using his methods & literature, then switch to something else from charismania. When the power and spotlight go to their heads, the result is what I mentioned happening above. It goes cultic and off of the deep end. Pergamum, if we ever meet, ask me about the chiropractor and I'll tell you the whole story. You will find it hard to believe.

Ok, check, I will ask you about the cultic chiropractor in 2014.

---------- Post added at 12:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:13 AM ----------

They train Mormons? Seriously?

?
 

CalvinandHodges

Puritan Board Junior
Yes, exaggerated details.......he really doesn't steal and eat babieS...it was just that one baby that one time........

No, but he does suggest "stealing and eating" the congregations into his movement. I was part of a SBC congregation that went PD then NAR. It was ugly.

Can you give me proof?

I know that many megachurches swell in number due to "transfer growth" (i.e. lateral movement of church attendees from one church to another) rather than "new gowth" (reaching the unchurched, and servicing those not serviced by others) but this is rarely their intention. Usually their intention is not to steal other people's "sheep" (using the term loosely) but to reached those remaining unchurched people in a community.

It is one thing to report that such things are happening, and quite another (which needs further proof) to show that this was Rick Warren's intention from the outset.

You missed my point. I am talking about an existing congregation that gets taken over by the PD movement way of operating. The congregation I was in had ~ 200 members when PDC started becoming the focus. After about 2 years, when I was given the boot, it was down to 18. I was marginalized and villified because I had the audacity to question the pastor. When he saw that I stood in the way of him taking over, with absolute authority, he had some people lock the doors on Sunday AM and had the police on speed dial to have me arrested if I set foot on HIS PROPERTY (the meetinghouse).

Also, people have started out using Warren's methods , but they modify them to build their own little kingdoms. Some people have started out using his methods & literature, then switch to something else from charismania. When the power and spotlight go to their heads, the result is what I mentioned happening above. It goes cultic and off of the deep end. Pergamum, if we ever meet, ask me about the chiropractor and I'll tell you the whole story. You will find it hard to believe.
Hi:

Now you have me interested - what is the story about the chiropractor?

Blessings,

Rob
 

Phil D.

Puritan Board Junior
I researched Warren a few years back and found where he stated that he was greatly influenced in the formative years of his ministry by Robert Schuller.
 

Pilgrim Standard

Puritan Board Sophomore
While I know very little of all of this spoken of in the thread, while reading this I am reminded of some of the blessings, of some level of protection against this, that I enjoy as a Confessional Presbyterian. It would be far more difficult to implement any of this in a Biblically laid out Confessional (Non-Independent) Presbyterian Church, than it would in an independent congregational non-confessing church.
 

Rich Koster

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Pergamum & Rob, I guess I could type the whole thing out , but it will be a long story. I guess I could type it out & paste it into my Grumpy Old Witch Hunters forum.
 

Pergamum

Ordinary Guy (TM)
If you type it, I will read it brother!

---------- Post added at 03:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:11 PM ----------

They train Mormons? Seriously?

Also, again, do they? and if so, where can I read about this?

---------- Post added at 03:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 PM ----------

Hello Lynnie:

Yes, here is a quote from an article praising Rick Warren:

Yet Warren's pastor-training programs welcome Catholics, Methodists, Mormons, Jews and ordained women.
You will find the quote here: USATODAY.com - This evangelist has a 'Purpose'

Blessings,

Rob

Thanks, we posted at the same time,

If Rick Warren really and truly trains mormons, this is a serious offense and he needs to be addressed.


Warren is part of the ultra-conservative Southern Baptist Convention, and all his senior staff sign on to the SBC's doctrines, such as the literal and infallible Bible and exclusion of women as senior pastors. Yet Warren's pastor-training programs welcome Catholics, Methodists, Mormons, Jews and ordained women.

Here is the quote. Is he trying to reach them or train them? It seems from John's little epistles that if we greet or help a false teacher than we partake in his sins. Therefore, if Warren is, indeed, helping Mormons more effectively reach others, than he is violating this principle and helping the cults.

Anybody have Warren's exact words on this?
 

Phil D.

Puritan Board Junior
Anybody have Warren's exact words on this?



---------- Post added at 09:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:23 AM ----------

Here is an interview in USAToday in which he acknowledged so - Here is the relevant extract:


Warren is part of the ultra-conservative Southern Baptist Convention, and all his senior staff sign on to the SBC's doctrines, such as the literal and infallible Bible and exclusion of women as senior pastors. Yet Warren's pastor-training programs welcome Catholics, Methodists, Mormons, Jews and ordained women.

"I'm not going to get into a debate over the non-essentials. I won't try to change other denominations. Why be divisive?" he asks, citing as his model Billy Graham, "a statesman for Christ ministering across barriers."​
 

CalvinandHodges

Puritan Board Junior
Hi Rich:

Thanks for sharing that experience. It brings tears to my eyes when I hear about things like this happening. I know quite a few people who have had similar experiences. I have never had such an experience. However, as an outsider such stories seem to be a bit too fantastic to be considered real, and can be viewed as overreacting or alarmist in nature. They are real though, and that is why I posted parts of the tract above. I also agree with you that the PDC has aggravated situations in churches that have caused major problems, and though PDC does not cause all of it, the "movement" has caused more destruction than good.

Odd that Rick Warren considers "deeds" more important than "creeds" - yet, when one looks at the "deeds" of the PDC one sees more harm than good.

Blessings,

Rob
 

Jack K

Puritan Board Professor
Here is an interview in USAToday in which he acknowledged so - Here is the relevant extract:


Warren is part of the ultra-conservative Southern Baptist Convention, and all his senior staff sign on to the SBC's doctrines, such as the literal and infallible Bible and exclusion of women as senior pastors. Yet Warren's pastor-training programs welcome Catholics, Methodists, Mormons, Jews and ordained women.

"I'm not going to get into a debate over the non-essentials. I won't try to change other denominations. Why be divisive?" he asks, citing as his model Billy Graham, "a statesman for Christ ministering across barriers."

It's helpful to see the wording of the article. Thanks, Phil.

Regardless of what we may think of the Purpose Driven movement, we need to be careful not to make uncharitable judgments based on this article. The editing of that quote and its placement in the story may not reflect Warren's thinking. It's far more likely to reflect the worldview of a secular journalist who doesn't necessarily understand the issues involved. Even "religion beat" reporters, and well-intentioned ones at that, often don't understand the churches they write about. I've worked with a number of reporters like that.
 

CalvinandHodges

Puritan Board Junior
Hi Jack:

Certainly we should have charity in our hearts to all people, and we are not to judge whether a man is going to heaven or hell. However, Jesus does say that, "You will know them by their fruits." And the testimony of hundreds of people, and the division and destruction of many churches stemming from the policies of Rick Warren are not things to be charitably ignored. Consider the lives of those who have been demonized, demeaned, and destroyed as a result of PDC policies? Reread the original post and ask yourself if this is the Christian way - or even the way of charity? At the least the church growth program that Rick Warren is advocating is not Reformed and is grossly unbiblical. What would you expect the results to be of something that is so contrary to God's revealed will. Those of you who have been blessed by not attending one of these churches, or a church that has been influenced by the PDC, then what I am pointing out may seem uncharitable to you. I will therefore post this video clip (which has some very raw footage) for you to ponder if this criticism is truly uncharitable. The video is a typical worship service at New Spring Church in South Carolina. The quotation at the end by Puritan John Flavel is very appropriate:

[video=youtube;Y5y5OKl5t1c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5y5OKl5t1c&feature=related[/video]

I am very sensitive to not try to overly criticize Rick Warren and PDC, but there comes a time when people have to take the blinders off and look at what is really happening with this teaching.

Blessings,

Rob
 

J. Dean

Puritan Board Junior
The church I attend on Sunday Mornings was into the purpose driven life craze when it first started. The movement as a whole has faded, abit, but you still see residual elements of it in the use of Celebrate Recovery and other likeminded programs that are Warren influenced.

What bothered me the most about Warren's stuff was that people were holding his book in as high regard as the Bible itself.
 

Jack K

Puritan Board Professor
Hi Jack:

Certainly we should have charity in our hearts to all people, and we are not to judge whether a man is going to heaven or hell. However, Jesus does say that, "You will know them by their fruits." And the testimony of hundreds of people, and the division and destruction of many churches stemming from the policies of Rick Warren are not things to be charitably ignored. Consider the lives of those who have been demonized, demeaned, and destroyed as a result of PDC policies? Reread the original post and ask yourself if this is the Christian way - or even the way of charity? At the least the church growth program that Rick Warren is advocating is not Reformed and is grossly unbiblical. What would you expect the results to be of something that is so contrary to God's revealed will. Those of you who have been blessed by not attending one of these churches, or a church that has been influenced by the PDC, then what I am pointing out may seem uncharitable to you. I will therefore post this video clip (which has some very raw footage) for you to ponder if this criticism is truly uncharitable. The video is a typical worship service at New Spring Church in South Carolina. The quotation at the end by Puritan John Flavel is very appropriate:

Yeah, I purposely didn't say anything about Warren. I did that to try to separate any concerns about his ministry from my main point, which is that if we offer criticism of any church based on secular news articles we run a pretty big risk of not having a clear understanding of what we've criticized. Most secular reporters simply aren't knowledgable enough about theology and churches to accurately tell us what we need to know for the sophisticated level of discussion we like to have here. That's all.
 

CalvinandHodges

Puritan Board Junior
Hi Jack:

I do not think that you have been reading this thread correctly. I would agree with you that one is not to use an article - or even a tract - as a means of criticizing a ministry. However, I know of real live people who have been demonized by this ministry, and churches have been destroyed by the worldly acts of PDC. You can read some of the testimonies above, or, look up for yourself the effects of Pragmatic models in church ministries.

To make the statement you made is not realistic in light of the posts on this thread.

Blessings,

Rob
 

Jack K

Puritan Board Professor
Hi Jack:

I do not think that you have been reading this thread correctly. I would agree with you that one is not to use an article - or even a tract - as a means of criticizing a ministry. However, I know of real live people who have been demonized by this ministry, and churches have been destroyed by the worldly acts of PDC. You can read some of the testimonies above, or, look up for yourself the effects of Pragmatic models in church ministries.

To make the statement you made is not realistic in light of the posts on this thread.

Blessings,

Rob

I was only making a side point. Didn't mean to get in the way of what you wished the thread to be about. Carry on.
 

J. Dean

Puritan Board Junior
If what the USA today article says with regard to Warren and his acceptance of Mormons, Jews (religiously, not racially), and ordained women is true, then that's disheartening to hear. To have a Mormon in or a Jew in your classes without them ever hearing about, or being confronted by, the true gospel tells me that this is a step in the direction of works-righteousness.
 

Weston Stoler

Puritan Board Sophomore
Wanna see a strange concoction, mix and IFB church and purpose driven life....... RUN RUN RUN RUN RUN! or get kicked out hehehehe :D
 

Kevin

Puritan Board Doctor
In my humble opinion most modern evangelical churches would benefit by adopting the Purpose Driven model.

It is much better then most of what passes for Protestantism today.
 
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