Is Young, Restless, and Reformed still a thing?

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Jack K

Puritan Board Professor
Was it ever much of a thing to self-identify as YRR? I don't think so. My sense is that in the years following the publication of the book by that title, a lot of people started using YRR to speak of the movement as a whole but few people used that moniker to describe who they were personally. Most simply described themselves as "Reformed," as they'd already been doing for several years by the time the book was published.

My experience is that a lot of that crowd still call themselves "Reformed." It's an easy-to-use descriptor. Others, as you suggest, identify more specifically with one of the well-known ministries or pastors who share those broad distinctives: not only Gospel Coalition, but sometimes IX Marks or Acts 29, or they will even identify as being a follower of a particular website or podcast, as in, "I'm a 'Doctrine & Devotion' guy." The academics who want to be more precise tend to prefer the label "New Calvinism," but that one doesn't seem to have caught on with the rank and file.
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Amanuensis
I guess I consider YRR to be roughly equivalent to New Calvinism, which claims to hold to TULIP yet rejects Calvin's view of church govt, civil govt, the Lord's Supper, Baptism, everything else.
I visited TGC yesterday out of habit. The top story was about how singing is literally the worse thing ever, like, really, the worse.

Groan. Now I have to go look at it.
 

W.C. Dean

Puritan Board Sophomore
My opinion of New Calvinism is probably softer than others. This lecture from Rev. Wood of the FCC encouraged me to not be overly critical. Truthfully many have come into a better understanding of Reformed theology through New Calvinism. I was personally assisted by TGC when I was brand new to predestination. I am perhaps not as soft as Rev. Wood is though.


As for their articles about humming and not singing, no wonder they don't want to sing! I wouldn't sing some of the stuff that is popular in those churches, EP or not!
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Amanuensis
My opinion of New Calvinism is probably softer than others. This lecture from Rev. Wood of the FCC encouraged me to not be overly critical. Truthfully many have come into a better understanding of Reformed theology through New Calvinism. I was personally assisted by TGC when I was brand new to predestination. I am perhaps not as soft as Rev. Wood is though.


As for their articles about humming and not singing, no wonder they don't want to sing! I wouldn't sing some of the stuff that is popular in those churches, EP or not!

If they introduce people to predestination, I suppose that's good. The deal is that they introduce it to them divorced and abstracted from what God teaches about the covenants, sacraments, etc. And their politics is basically Peak-Level Karen. Politically, they exist to soothe the consciences of the elites.
 

Chad Hutson

Puritan Board Freshman
Yeah, I don't know. Probably not hip enough now. I'm glad I've never had an impulse to be hip or cool or edgy. I'm just a Christian. Call it Reformed or Calvinistic or what you will. I just call it Christianity.
 

JM

Puritan Board Doctor
I follow Dr. Jordan B. Cooper's youtube/podcasts and find his work very helpful. Here is a Lutheran understanding of "what happened to" the YRR.


I know a handful of people that have converted to Romanism and Orthodoxy and two who are now making the move into Romanism and Orthodoxy. They said if a conservative Anglican or Lutheran parish existed in our area they wouldn't need to go that far...
 

W.C. Dean

Puritan Board Sophomore
Yeah I've never understood but there seems to be an epidemic of young Reformed men travelling to EO or RCC. Does anyone know of any reasons for this? Sorry also a bit off topic. Does it relate to New Calvinism? Calvinism without roots?
 

ZackF

Puritan Board Graduate
Yeah I've never understood but there seems to be an epidemic of young Reformed men travelling to EO or RCC. Does anyone know of any reasons for this? Sorry also a bit off topic. Does it relate to New Calvinism? Calvinism without roots?
Once again this is just patently false. One or two NAPARC ministers a year "crossing the Tiber" out of hundreds doesn't an epidemic make. Rome is dying on the withered vine. The RCC is the USA is bit more conservative than Europe and South America and so that gives a false impression. Even with that concession for every AB Chaput there are 20 liberal bishops. Most intellectual converts (including pastors) to Rome are larping. They live in past relying on Aquinas, Chesterton, Medieval Christendom and the mechanical nature of so-called "apostolic succession" to console them while going to weekly Mass presided by Father Fluff and Sister Anger. Pastor Bruce had it correctly on a thread in the past, Rome is fools gold. She just appeared to be a lot shinier version in 1870 or even 1950 than now. A near lifelong, dear and loyal friend and his family are RC. I pray that God's grace breaks through.
 

JM

Puritan Board Doctor
Once again this is just patently false. One or two NAPARC ministers a year "crossing the Tiber" out of hundreds doesn't an epidemic make. Rome is dying on the withered vine. The RCC is the USA is bit more conservative than Europe and South America and so that gives a false impression. Even with that concession for every AB Chaput there are 20 liberal bishops. Most intellectual converts (including pastors) to Rome are larping. They live in past relying on Aquinas, Chesterton, Medieval Christendom and the mechanical nature of so-called "apostolic succession" to console them while going to weekly Mass presided by Father Fluff and Sister Anger. Pastor Bruce had it correctly on a thread in the past, Rome is fools gold. She just appeared to be a lot shinier version in 1870 or even 1950 than now. A near lifelong, dear and loyal friend and his family are RC. I pray that God's grace breaks through.

A lot of truth to the above but I would add converts also have a real belief in transubstantiation. They believe John 6 teaches that in light of the writings of the early church.

This is a quote often cited, "They [the Docetists, early Christological heretics] abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

Another reason is the real belief in the papacy. Upon this Rock by Steve Ray has had a big impact on the Christians I know who have converted. It seems that once a core Roman belief like transubstantiation or the papacy is held it's all over.

In the case of Orthodoxy it's the mystery, the worship, the liturgy. I have to admit that I love the Book of Common Prayer liturgy and will stop by the local Anglican parish from time to time. The BCP has the Great Litany and I've used it often when I can't pray so I can attest to a weak faith at times that is encouraged by liturgy.


I have 5 immediate drawbacks to liturgy but for the most part I agree with Dr. Cooper and understand why real Christians seek it out.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 

ZackF

Puritan Board Graduate
A lot of truth to the above but I would add converts also have a real belief in transubstantiation. They believe John 6 teaches that in light of the writings of the early church.



jm
Believe me I know. That old wrinkled t-shirt is in my drawer. I was once an avid poster on Steve Rays forums in the early/mid 2000s.
 

JM

Puritan Board Doctor
Believe me I know. That old wrinkled t-shirt is in my drawer. I was once an avid poster on Steve Rays forums in the early/mid 2000s.
"fools gold" is a good way to put it. James White has mentioned that he knows people who converted only to regret it 10 years down the road.

If only Anglicanism and Lutheranism was stable, confessional and widespread. You can almost never find all three in my parish.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Amanuensis
Once again this is just patently false. One or two NAPARC ministers a year "crossing the Tiber" out of hundreds doesn't an epidemic make. Rome is dying on the withered vine. The RCC is the USA is bit more conservative than Europe and South America and so that gives a false impression. Even with that concession for every AB Chaput there are 20 liberal bishops. Most intellectual converts (including pastors) to Rome are larping. They live in past relying on Aquinas, Chesterton, Medieval Christendom and the mechanical nature of so-called "apostolic succession" to console them while going to weekly Mass presided by Father Fluff and Sister Anger. Pastor Bruce had it correctly on a thread in the past, Rome is fools gold. She just appeared to be a lot shinier version in 1870 or even 1950 than now. A near lifelong, dear and loyal friend and his family are RC. I pray that God's grace breaks through.

Something like that. There is a pattern among the YRR types to "jump to another tradition" simply because they don't have a good foundation in Reformed theology. When you reduce all of theology to 5 Points and a Passion conference, what can you expect?

It's not a lot, though, simply because there aren't that many people jumping, despite what the blogs say.

And people who read Chesterton and the middle ages are larping. I like to ask, "Which Middle Ages?" The pornocracy of the 9th century? Or do we just mean Thomas Aquinas (whose views weren't always welcome)?

And Chesterton was simply an inferior theologian. Even legitimate Thomist scholars ridicule his book on Thomas.
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Amanuensis
The BCP has the Great Litany and I've used it often when I can't pray so I can attest to a weak faith at times that is encouraged by liturgy.

The BCP is probably the 3rd finest moment in the English language. There is nothing wrong with using those prayers. It's better to use a template from the BCP than to try to muscle up a good prayer extempore (which will often be repetition itself).
 

W.C. Dean

Puritan Board Sophomore
Once again this is just patently false. One or two NAPARC ministers a year "crossing the Tiber" out of hundreds doesn't an epidemic make. Rome is dying on the withered vine. The RCC is the USA is bit more conservative than Europe and South America and so that gives a false impression. Even with that concession for every AB Chaput there are 20 liberal bishops. Most intellectual converts (including pastors) to Rome are larping. They live in past relying on Aquinas, Chesterton, Medieval Christendom and the mechanical nature of so-called "apostolic succession" to console them while going to weekly Mass presided by Father Fluff and Sister Anger. Pastor Bruce had it correctly on a thread in the past, Rome is fools gold. She just appeared to be a lot shinier version in 1870 or even 1950 than now. A near lifelong, dear and loyal friend and his family are RC. I pray that God's grace breaks through.
Well I certainly wasn't referring to just a few pastors. I've heard of quite a few young men (pastors or not) traveling into EO. Probably not an epidemic. I apologize for over-exaggeration.
 

BayouHuguenot

Puritanboard Amanuensis
Well I certainly wasn't referring to just a few pastors. I've heard of quite a few young men (pastors or not) traveling into EO. Probably not an epidemic. I apologize for over-exaggeration.

EO online (all of whom are Western converts) loudly proclaim how Reformed pastors are joining daily. It's so irritating, not least because it is false.
 

ZackF

Puritan Board Graduate
Something like that. There is a pattern among the YRR types to "jump to another tradition" simply because they don't have a good foundation in Reformed theology. When you reduce all of theology to 5 Points and a Passion conference, what can you expect?

It's not a lot, though, simply because there aren't that many people jumping, despite what the blogs say.

And people who read Chesterton and the middle ages are larping. I like to ask, "Which Middle Ages?" The pornocracy of the 9th century? Or do we just mean Thomas Aquinas (whose views weren't always welcome)?

And Chesterton was simply an inferior theologian. Even legitimate Thomist scholars ridicule his book on Thomas.
Exactly. You make good points. The pornocray. What bout Avignon "papacy". How many popes?

Chesterton was a more of a journalist (a pretty good one) who wrote a couple of biographical sketches but could be quite an ignoramus. Some of his quotes on Calvinism are horrible. He could turn a phrase though. I like his Fr. Brown mysteries. My point is that he's admired by larpers today.

My point was more about how modern, conservative and traditional Catholics survive. It is largely on a diet of the past. Yes we admire Calvin and the Puritans but we are fed a hearty meal weekly on preaching from godly pastors. Many examples exist on this board.
 

ZackF

Puritan Board Graduate
EO online (all of whom are Western converts) loudly proclaim how Reformed pastors are joining daily. It's so irritating, not least because it is false.
On the RC side, I imagine an interesting project would be to comb Marcus Grodi's "coming home network" for pastors who come from a Reformed( or to be generous Reformedish) backgrounds and multiply it by say 5 to create a numerator. Use a denominator from an estimate of total pastors from NAPARC plus Reformed/Reformedish Baptist and other denominations reasonably included. I still say that fatality rate, to use a timely metaphor, would be low.
 

G

Puritan Board Senior
I don’t hear the title much anymore, nor do I ever remember it being a self-associated badge of honor. I was probably in the crowd some when my former SBC church transitioned from Arminian thinking to Calvinistic regarding salvation. Looking back we were super puffed up and pumped to be the only “predestination” preaching church in town, yet we (including myself) were grossly ignorant in claiming to be “reformed baptist” regarding the fuller picture of what it means to be reformed. The same church is still close to my home (a literal stones-throw since we moved). They are still 5-pointers and Elder-led. I think they are a mixed bag on the 3-fold division of the Law and are unstudied on the RPW. However, I recently heard they are in-discussion on studying and adopting the 1689 LBC as their Doctrinal Subscription. A segment of their body also rejects the man-made church calendar.

So while I do not agree with the movement in hindsight, it served to place me where I am today (An Original Westministerian) and it at least has seemed to serve to move a former SBC Stereotype congregation towards historic baptist confessionalism.:detective:
 
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