Is there Scriptural Warrant for Composing Uninspired song for use in public worship

Status
Not open for further replies.

Skyler

Puritan Board Graduate
I have a question.

When Paul said "psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs" was he listing three different categories, or simply repeating himself?
 

DonP

Puritan Board Junior
If I could learn the Scriptures without the help of my pastor......then I wouldn't need my pastor. I learn further while reading Scripture, but it's based upon what I've learned from others in the past. Same can be said of songs. Someone could write a song about justification and keep it doctrinally sound which would teach others and admonishing others.
J
Originally Posted by JBaldwin
I would agree that we cannot teach all that is in scripture by using only the Psalms. There is a lot of doctrine that is not found in the psalms.

---
I was refering back to a comment that we were to teach and admonish. Colossians specifically says that we are teach and admonish. I don't know how we can teach and admonish the Word of Christ in all wisdom without drawing from all of the revealed word of Christ.
You don't need to learn everything there is to learn in scripture to fulfill the fact that we can be taught and admonished from the Psalms.

I don't think the point of singing is to teach all of what there is to know.

That is what the preaching and reading is for.
Do you think they duplicate in purpose? or the verse means we are to learn everything from our singing?

Read the verse again, if anything it could be saying, sing by letting the word dwell in you richly, by singing the word of God, teaching and admonishing one another, from the 3 sections of psalms,
This way it is the word that dwells in you richly and you are taught from it when singing .

Would it be ok if your minister did not preach from the word and he used man made modern wisdom writings? Or do you want him to teach from the scriptures?
So here we are told clearly let the WORD dwell in us richly, how? by singing it over and over.

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
(Col 3:16)



Skyler I have a question.

When Paul said "psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs" was he listing three different categories, or simply repeating himself?
See above post of John Murray quote, one of several possible explanations for them being at least inspired if not e types of psalms as the Jews would have understood since they only sang them and were more familiar with them than most Christians.
 

Honor

de-cool
this is a mind blowing debate... I have never heard of this before. Is there like a hymnal with all the Psalms put to music? what kind of music? a piano or guitar or drums or just a tamborine and that other thingy David used the harp thing? I'm not tring to poke fun... I really want to know.
 

Duncan

Puritan Board Freshman
this is a mind blowing debate... I have never heard of this before. Is there like a hymnal with all the Psalms put to music? what kind of music? a piano or guitar or drums or just a tamborine and that other thingy David used the harp thing? I'm not tring to poke fun... I really want to know.
I can assure you the practice and experience of Psalm singing is far more mind blowing than any alternatives. In our church we sing a capella it is truly an uplifting experience. Lifting your hearts to God in pure worship.
 

Scottish Lass

Puritan Board Doctor
this is a mind blowing debate... I have never heard of this before. Is there like a hymnal with all the Psalms put to music? what kind of music? a piano or guitar or drums or just a tamborine and that other thingy David used the harp thing? I'm not tring to poke fun... I really want to know.
Our psalter looks like a hymnal. The lyrics are written with the notes/sheet music just like a hymnal. Our denomination uses instruments (some other denominations don't, of course), so they're usually played on the piano or organ.
 

Whitefield

Puritan Board Junior
Lifting your hearts to God in pure worship.
Yes, that's the same feeling I get when I sing an Isaac Watts hymn.
Really? You get the same from Issac as you do from Scripture??

Which hymn? :gpl:
I get the same as I do from the Psalter (I didn't say Scripture)

O God, Our Help in Ages Past
Joy to the World
Alas! and Did My Savior Bleed
When I Survey the Wondrous Cross
Come, We That Love the Lord
 

NaphtaliPress

Administrator
Staff member
Drop it gentlemen and maybe this thread can stay on track. N.B. The criticism that psalters are not scripture, will not be discussed on this thread. When thread creation is reopen, start a thread devoted to that topic.
Yes, that's the same feeling I get when I sing an Isaac Watts hymn.
Really? You get the same from Issac as you do from Scripture??

Which hymn? :gpl:
I get the same as I do from the Psalter (I didn't say Scripture)

O God, Our Help in Ages Past
Joy to the World
Alas! and Did My Savior Bleed
When I Survey the Wondrous Cross
Come, We That Love the Lord
 

Honor

de-cool
ok... I'm kinda seeing (not nessisarily agreeing but I can see the other sides POV) the whole only Psalms thing... but why a cappella? Didn't David use a harp and a tamborine? like in
2 Sam 6:5,Psalms 81:2, 149:3, 150:4
 

DonP

Puritan Board Junior
ok... I'm kinda seeing (not nessisarily agreeing but I can see the other sides POV) the whole only Psalms thing... but why a cappella? Didn't David use a harp and a tamborine? like in
2 Sam 6:5,Psalms 81:2, 149:3, 150:4
Because God wants to hear our voices.

Praise and sacrifice of our lips.

You can check some threads in instrumental worship. Lots there on them being part of ceremonial and not used in synagogue worship that continues, and no NT example of instruments in non-temple worship

Heb 13:15
15 Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name.
NKJV

Ps 63:3

3 Because Your lovingkindness is better than life,
My lips shall praise You.
NKJV

Ps 119:171
171 My lips shall utter praise,
NKJV
 

NaphtaliPress

Administrator
Staff member
2nd request. Stay on topic.:um:

Is there clear and sufficient warrant given in Scripture for the composition of uninspired writings for use as song in the public worship of the Church?


Address the topic of the thread or interact with those that have attempted to do so.
 

Duncan

Puritan Board Freshman
2nd request. Stay on topic.:um:

Is there clear and sufficient warrant given in Scripture for the composition of uninspired writings for use as song in the public worship of the Church?


Address the topic of the thread or interact with those that have attempted to do so.
Having read all the posts I am afraid I have become more convinced of the EP position. As far as I can see it the orginal question remains . The bible alone is our rule of faith within its pages we have ALL we require, including a most excellent book of hymns and spiritual songs which are to be found of course in the psalms.The response of some on hear to question the psalter is frankly astonishing. I say this respectfully being far from the most learned on this forum.
 

Honor

de-cool
thank you for this thread... I have learned alot about other peoples views... views I didn't even know were out there. I'm going to bow out of this thread...Now that I've don't my research and have read papers on this topic and have a strong stance I don't think that any other contribution on my part in this thread would be beneficial.
Thank you Mods for allowing this thread to be opened. It was quite informative.
 

Puritan Sailor

Puritan Board Doctor
Is there clear and sufficient warrant given in Scripture for the composition of uninspired writings for use as song in the public worship of the Church?
God commands us to sing praise to him for who he is and what he has done (cf. Ps 96:1-3, Ps 98:1-2). God has performed more works on behalf of his people and revealed more of his nature and character since the composing of the psalms. Therefore, we have more to sing about. This is further encouraged with the commands in Eph. and Col. to teach and admonish one another with song, expounding and celebrating what what God has now done for us in Christ and praising him for it. :2cents:
 

PresReformed

Puritan Board Freshman
Is there clear and sufficient warrant given in Scripture for the composition of uninspired writings for use as song in the public worship of the Church?
God commands us to sing praise to him for who he is and what he has done (cf. Ps 96:1-3, Ps 98:1-2). God has performed more works on behalf of his people and revealed more of his nature and character since the composing of the psalms. Therefore, we have more to sing about. This is further encouraged with the commands in Eph. and Col. to teach and admonish one another with song, expounding and celebrating what what God has now done for us in Christ and praising him for it. :2cents:
The question stands. Where is there warrant for the composition for uninspired songs? Neither the Ephesians or Colossians passage commands us to compose or expound. They simply command us to speak, teach, and admonish by singing the psalms.
 

DonP

Puritan Board Junior
Is there clear and sufficient warrant given in Scripture for the composition of uninspired writings for use as song in the public worship of the Church?
God commands us to sing praise to him for who he is and what he has done (cf. Ps 96:1-3, Ps 98:1-2). God has performed more works on behalf of his people and revealed more of his nature and character since the composing of the psalms. Therefore, we have more to sing about. This is further encouraged with the commands in Eph. and Col. to teach and admonish one another with song, expounding and celebrating what what God has now done for us in Christ and praising him for it. :2cents:
By your own reasoning you should be EP

Do you want people to teach and admonish each other from the scripture or from some manmade ideas and modern ideas?

Do you want me to admonish you from a commentary or limit it to the scriptures?

Then wouldn't it make sense and be consistent to admonish and teach in song from the scriptures as well
 

Puritan Sailor

Puritan Board Doctor
Is there clear and sufficient warrant given in Scripture for the composition of uninspired writings for use as song in the public worship of the Church?
God commands us to sing praise to him for who he is and what he has done (cf. Ps 96:1-3, Ps 98:1-2). God has performed more works on behalf of his people and revealed more of his nature and character since the composing of the psalms. Therefore, we have more to sing about. This is further encouraged with the commands in Eph. and Col. to teach and admonish one another with song, expounding and celebrating what what God has now done for us in Christ and praising him for it. :2cents:
By your own reasoning you should be EP

Do you want people to teach and admonish each other from the scripture or from some manmade ideas and modern ideas?
From Scripture.

Do you want me to admonish you from a commentary or limit it to the scriptures?
Hopefully, if you needed to admonish me, you would explain how the relevant Scripture applies to me rather than just quote it to me. And so long as the commentary faithfully expounds the truth of Scripture I will gladly receive it's admonition, just as I would a sermon.

Then wouldn't it make sense and be consistent to admonish and teach in song from the scriptures as well
I am not advocating singing manmade ideas, nor is anyone else here. So we can lay aside that objection.

I am arguing that God commands us to praise him for who he is and what he has done. The psalms do that, and so I will sing them. But, the fact of the matter is that God did a lot more for his people and revealed a lot more about himself after the Psalms were finished. We are instructed about these greater things in the NT. If I do not sing praise to him in response to his new works and celebrate the greater revelation of his nature and character, then I am disobeying him.

:2cents:
 

DonP

Puritan Board Junior
If I do not sing praise to him in response to his new works and celebrate the greater revelation of his nature and character, then I am disobeying him.

:2cents:

disobeying what command in scripture would that be?
or just a man made conclusion?

There is a difference in the word and a man's conclusion. That is why I generally state a concept then offer scripture with it that the man may judge from the scripture what it means rather than my commentary on it.
 

PresbyDane

Puritanboard Doctor
Is there clear and sufficient warrant given in Scripture for the composition of uninspired writings for use as song in the public worship of the Church?
God commands us to sing praise to him for who he is and what he has done (cf. Ps 96:1-3, Ps 98:1-2). God has performed more works on behalf of his people and revealed more of his nature and character since the composing of the psalms. Therefore, we have more to sing about. This is further encouraged with the commands in Eph. and Col. to teach and admonish one another with song, expounding and celebrating what what God has now done for us in Christ and praising him for it. :2cents:
Thank you Puritansailor this settles it for me.
 

PresReformed

Puritan Board Freshman
Is there clear and sufficient warrant given in Scripture for the composition of uninspired writings for use as song in the public worship of the Church?
God commands us to sing praise to him for who he is and what he has done (cf. Ps 96:1-3, Ps 98:1-2). God has performed more works on behalf of his people and revealed more of his nature and character since the composing of the psalms. Therefore, we have more to sing about. This is further encouraged with the commands in Eph. and Col. to teach and admonish one another with song, expounding and celebrating what what God has now done for us in Christ and praising him for it. :2cents:
Thank you Puritansailor this settles it for me.
So you are arguing the the psalter is insufficient? That the book of inspired songs God gave us in His word needs to be added to with uninspired songs of human composition? The command to sing and teach is not synonymous with compose. There is no command to write new songs, just a command to sing the psalms. The psalter is a sufficient book of praise. It is what our Lord sang. It is what the apostles sang. We are not to add to or take away from His book of praise.
 

NaphtaliPress

Administrator
Staff member
Folks; to show appreciation and/or agreement with a post, use the thanks button. "Thanks" and "amen," "yuh-uh" and "nuh-uh" posts are not going to be passed on by the moderators (mods. take note).

Let's keep this focused on interacting with Patrick's argument that there is a warrant for composing uninspired song for use in public worship found in Psalm 96 and 98, Eph 5:19 and Col. 3:16. There are also the matters of suggesting the psalter is insufficient, and the implication of disobedience to God in not singing new hymns (if we have commands to sing new songs we better do it, right?). Or if other's have other passages to add, of a different vein that offer a warrant, add them to the mix. Also, it would sure help if we could discuss this syllogistically. So, any logicians feel free to construct answers so, and offer support or rebuttal formally.
 

Puritan Sailor

Puritan Board Doctor
God commands us to sing praise to him for who he is and what he has done (cf. Ps 96:1-3, Ps 98:1-2). God has performed more works on behalf of his people and revealed more of his nature and character since the composing of the psalms. Therefore, we have more to sing about. This is further encouraged with the commands in Eph. and Col. to teach and admonish one another with song, expounding and celebrating what what God has now done for us in Christ and praising him for it. :2cents:
Thank you Puritansailor this settles it for me.
So you are arguing the the psalter is insufficient?
Not at all. The psalmists celebrate the nature and work of God up until their point in time, and anticipated what God would do in the future. So they have their place. But they didn't know exactly how God would work salvation for his people, nor the glory of the Trinity which the coming of Jesus would reveal. Now that the great mysteries of salvation have been revealed, how can we not sing praise to God for what he has done for us? Whenever the curtain over God's character was rolled further back in the OT, the saints praise God with new songs. How can we not do that in the NT, when his greatest works and revelation of his character are revealed? If we are to be consistent with the practice of the OT saints, we should still obey the commands in the Psalms and Prophets to sing new songs of praise to God for the greater works he has done, and the greater revelation of his character after the OT was completed. And lo and behold, we are commanded to do just that in the NT, to teach and admonish one another with song, just as the psalms functioned in the Old Testament.
:2cents:
 

Augusta

Puritan Board Doctor
The mysteries revealed in the NT are in the OT. They were hidden and veiled but they are there. They are there in the psalter. We who have the Spirit can now see them with unveiled face. They remain hidden to this day to most, but not those who are called. This is why some of the psalms are indeed new, because we see them with new eyes, opened eyes. The psalter is still sufficient even now. :sing:

2 Cor. 3:12-18

12 Since we have such a hope, we are very bold,
13 not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end.
14 But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.
15 Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts.
16 But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

-----Added 4/12/2009 at 05:19:48 EST-----

This psalm is a new song now to us because of verse 2. We know what this song means now. :sing: I recommend the tune Desert. :sing:

Psalm 98

1 O sing a new song to the Lord,

for wonders he hath done:

His right hand and his holy arm

him victory hath won.

2 The Lord God his salvation

hath caused to be known;

His justice in the heathen’s sight

he openly hath shown.


3 He mindful of his grace and truth

to Isr’el’s house hath been;

And the salvation of our God

all ends of th’ earth have seen.


4 Let all the earth unto the Lord

send forth a joyful noise;

Lift up your voice aloud to him,

sing praises, and rejoice.

5 With harp, with harp, and voice of psalms,

unto Jehovah sing:

6 With trumpets, cornets, gladly sound

before the Lord the King.

7 Let seas and all their fulness roar;

the world, and dwellers there;

8 Let floods clap hands, and let the hills

together joy declare

9 Before the Lord; because he comes,

to judge the earth comes he:

He’ll judge the world with righteousness,

his folk with equity.
 

DonP

Puritan Board Junior
Here is what Reformed Baptists are supposed to hold to on the Regulative Principle as it is stated in the 1689 Confession. Unless they take an exception

1. The light of nature shews that there is a God, who hath lordship and sovereignty over all; is just, good and doth good unto all; and is therefore to be feared, loved, praised, called upon, trusted in, and served, with all the heart and all the soul, and with all the might. But the acceptable way of worshipping the true God, is instituted by himself, and so limited by his own revealed will, that he may not be worshipped according to the imagination and devices of men, nor the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representations, or any other way not prescribed in the Holy Scriptures.

Sounds like the same as WC at this point.

Only one question then, does Eph 5:19 and Col 3:16 teach more than the psalms, and is this referring to in public worship.

Now how could it? Stop and think, if you were a 1st Century Jew who was a believer or became converted and met in the synagogue or some other place and this was written to you, what would you think it meant?

So for it to mean a change, something new and different than what you had been doing all along it would need to be clearly specific that this was new and different so a Jew would know.

Same is true on the sign of being in the visible covenant. If you were a 1st century Jew and now a believer meeting together some where or in a synagogue and were told we no longer circumcise now we baptize what would you have to be told to stop giving the sign of the membership to the child?

There is no such command or teaching adequate to change what they had been doing in either case.

So according to RP they would have continued in all these things as they had been doing.

Do you really think Eph and Col would have been clear enough to cause the Jewish believers to change and start composing and singing in worship new uninspired songs?

Then that was not what was intended by the author.

We have to read the scriptures with the hearing of the ones it was written to, in order to properly interpret it.
Then we can extrapolate.

We can not read it as if it was written to us today with our current biases and influences.

Remember to one who was raised in a Reformed or Presbyterian church for the last 500 years this would not be a complicated issue.

It is only complicated if you have been taught another system, baptist or pentecostal etc. and then you come to deal with this subject.
 

NaphtaliPress

Administrator
Staff member
Whether you agree with or disagree with Don's point about baptism, do not discuss baptism on this thread. Keep on the EP topic and address the point as it pertains to that.
 

tellville

Puritan Board Junior
Only one question then, does Eph 5:19 and Col 3:16 teach more than the psalms, and is this referring to in public worship.

Now how could it? Stop and think, if you were a 1st Century Jew who was a believer or became converted and met in the synagogue or some other place and this was written to you, what would you think it meant?
Well, history seems to show that they thought it meant compose new hymns. Isn't that why Paul included new hymns in his letters (E.g Col 1:15-20,)? He is quoting early hymns to Christ. If he is quoting early hymns wouldn't that mean that the earliest Christians were composing them? And would the fact that he is including them in letters meant to be read during worship mean that Paul thought it was ok to include new Christian hymns in the worship service?
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top