Is there a sense in which God desires all men to be saved?

no

 

Sarah, come on, you can do better than that.

In that scripture says explicitly that God desires that everyone should be saved then there must be a 'sense' in which it is true. Now back up and go at this again. This is a great question and one you will be confronted with over and over.

 

I don't think "all kinds of men" is doing gymnastics. Rather, it is interpreting the passage in context. Does the passage teach that God desires the salvation of all men individually or indiscriminately?

Even if this passage could be legitimately be interpreted in either sense (which I doubt), then it should properly be taken off the table as weighing in favor of either view -- since ambiguous passages should be interpreted in light of clearer passages related to a specific issue.

 

Great question, and I think the answer is Yes. This is one of those great mysteries that I don't think our finite minds will ever grasp. It's easy for us to think "God does whatever he wants to do", but it is SO much more complicated than that.

Did God desire for his Son to to die a horrible death? I don't think the answer is as simple as Yes or No.

I think God DOES desire for all men to be saved. I think God DOES desire for all men to sing his praises. Does it happen? No. It's a mystery. I don't understand the desires of God and how they mix with his sovereign will.

 

Skyler I think this is a really good question.
Being reformed I believe that God has predestined some of the people of the world to become his people, eventhough I do not know who or how many.
That being said I must admit that I have been thinking about just this question and still am to a sertain point.
I think that what I believe, and stated above is also why sjonee answered no!
(sorry sjonee if that is not the case)
I have found Gods election of us to be the most peace giving and loyal to his word interpretation that there is, and I will not let i go.
But, back to the but...
I do accationally meet verses in scripture that lets me think that in some way God wants everybody to come to a knowledge of him (that would maybe fit in with God being a God of love)
But I also see how God is a God of justice, and how these two things fit together, is out of my grasp of understanding.
It creates two questions for me, which fit in with your own question
1: Why does God save anybody? (as a justified God he did not have to and to me this is the most interesting question, and..
2: Why does God not save everybody? (as God and that a God of love, he could, this is also an interesting question, eventhough a lesser one in my opinion.
But basically I think that why God does or does not do things, is entirely up to him, he has told us what we need to know i.e. "Believe me" and has told us that those who do that will be the saved ones.

 

No, I don't think God in any sense desires that every human being be saved otherwise they would be. I don't think He gets His jollies out of sending people to hell, but how would His grace be shown if there were no one going to hell? His grace is His glory and He won't deny Himself His glory. I believe that "all people" means some from every tribe and nation etc.

 

I agree with you. It was part of his plan for salvation, so it had to happen. In that sense, absolutely, God desired it to happen. But I think it is fair to say that in another sense, God did not desire that his holy Son suffer on the cross. A different type of "desire" I guess. Maybe I'm speaking nonsense.

-----Added 1/26/2009 at 11:47:12 EST-----

I don't think it is a question of power or powerlessness. God is not limited in his power. If God chose to do so, he could have elected all of mankind.

I don't know that "double-minded" is the right way to phrase it, but I don't think everything in God's eternal will is pleasing to him. For example, God does not delight in the destruction of the wicked, yet it is in his will to do so. Maybe I am confusing things by talking about multiple types of "desire".

 

See, Bob, I didn't need to do better than my original answer! I knew these guys would be on this one like white on rice!

 

I can hear the teenage agnostic after reading this thread... "Man, that God dude sure sounds 'flicted!"...

 

We also need to deal with 2 Peter 3:9

and Ezek. 18:23

and a related question:

Does the Lord truly mourn over the lost?

-----Added 1/26/2009 at 12:16:35 EST-----

No you DID have to do better than a one word answer. I've had people, especially moms, walk out of Bible studies I was teaching over this very question. As Todd already pointed out, there is no question that has more sentimental force behind it than this one. We have to have a good, solid answer that anyone can understand and doesn't sound like mental gymnastics.

 

What God desires, he does.

- Whatever His soul desires, that He does, (Job 23:13).

- Our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases, (Psalm 115:3).

- Whatever the Lord pleases, He does, in heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deep places, (Psalm 135:6).

- I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying 'My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure,' (Isaiah 46:9-10).

- [God] does according to His will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand or say to Him, 'What have You done?' (Daniel 4:35).

If he desired that all men without exception be saved, they would be.

 

Any who? Any of you.

-----Added 1/26/2009 at 12:28:24 EST-----

The absence of pleasure is not necessarily mourning.

BTW, can somebody tell me how to do the 'add' thingy?

Now I'm really confused???

 

Does God desire His people to break His law?

The question that was asked was if God desires their salvation in any sense. I think a passage like the one in Ezekiel 18:23 makes a strong case that the answer is yes.

 

I just heard this from my fiancee Nikki, She says that God desires all men be saved only in the sense that He commanded all men to believe the gospel. I think that that is a very good way to look at it, wooo!

 

It is Charlie and that is the secret vs. revealed will (or decretive vs. preceptive) argument. Deut 29:29

Here is how Edwards said it:

 

Nikki sounds like a keeper.

As Bawb says, this is related to God's preceptive will vs decretive will. God's preceptive will establishes what man ought to do and that which is in-keeping-with and agreeable to God's nature, but it is not volitional as is his decretive will.

This distinction is made by Turretin and Edwards among many others. It is taking God's preceptive will and assigning volitional desire to it that causes the problems we see in sloppy theology today.

 

A fascinating observation of this question is that it really does come from sentiment and a sentiment so strong that we feel defensive about it and try to save God's nice guy image.

Fact is, this question should be the problem of the arminian. If they really want to push the idea that God desires no one to be lost then they are defending a god who is weak and can't accomplish what he wants. This is called open theism and it's most notable supporter is Clark Pinnock.

This question really points to the weakness of arminianism. A weakling god is the only intellectually honest conclusion that one can draw if they answer in the affirmative (to the original post).

If someone asks you a question like this, you need to first show them that there is a bigger question at stake then the freewill of man. It's also easy to demonstrate that the arminian is putting sentiment above a good hermeneutic.

 

So, Bob, did I answer the question solidly and understandably without bending over backwards? I liked your last answer...I thought at first you were saying something different...I thought you were a secrete Arminian.

 

Sarah, I wasn't against the content of your answer, I was against the brevity. I knew what you meant, but it's not what the free willy 'God loves everyone' person wants to hear.

I once asked a good friend of mine who held strongly that Gods desires everyone to be saved (without exception), this question: Do you believe that God loves people in hell?

She didn't even hesitate, "Yes!!! And he feels so bad and wishes they were not!"

That is strong sentiment and very difficult to argue with. When the heart rules the mind, what good is argument?