Is the SBC at war with Calvinism?

Discussion in 'General discussions' started by J. Dean, Jun 22, 2012.

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  1. J. Dean

    J. Dean Puritan Board Junior

  2. cajunhillbilly53

    cajunhillbilly53 Puritan Board Freshman

    Which is a joke in light of Spurgeon, who was staunchly Calvinistic and saw Arminianism as watering down the Gospel. And the same Arminians who attack Calvinism love Spurgeon.
     
  3. TylerRay

    TylerRay Puritan Board Junior

    At the core of this article is the statement that was linked to a couple of weeks ago in the thread "SBC and Calvinism."

    An Introduction to

    The statement is strong, but it never uses the word "heresy." Interestingly, the statement itself runs dangerously close to heresy when it says "We deny that Adam’s sin ... rendered any person guilty before he has personally sinned."
     
  4. GulfCoast Presbyterian

    GulfCoast Presbyterian Puritan Board Junior

    The "statement" is either VERY theologically sloppy, or semi-pelagian on the question of original sin. Unless of course, you are a signatory to the statement. At that point, anyone who points out the theological sloppiness or the semi-pelagian nature of this document, is suddenly a dreaded "hyper-calvinist." I guess that means Roger Olson just went "hyper." ;)

    This is an interesting article, which gets at WHY the old guard of the SBC feel threatened in their power structure:

    Between The Times

    Note the comments section. Who knew that Calvinists were the "preppy somewhat intellegent kids."
     
  5. Marrow Man

    Marrow Man Drunk with Powder

    I've actually heard some of them say, "But Spurgeon preached like an Arminian," whatever that means. :rolleyes:
     
  6. NB3K

    NB3K Puritan Board Sophomore

    Maybe it would be wise if the Reformed brother's and sister's in Christ separate themselves from the apostate SBC and reorganize.
     
  7. Jake

    Jake Puritan Board Junior

    Even the article says that a study shows equal numbers of congregations in the SBC identify as Calvinist as Arminian (30% for each). There are several good seminaries in the denomination which many reformed people find themselves comfortable in, most notably Southern. There are a great number of faithful men in the denomination from across the theological spectrum. The SBC is just more wide than a Presbyterian denomination, as the statement of faith is much more compact. I think this makes sense, as the SBC is not a denomination, but a number of churches partnering together for related causes, such as missions. Many churches even have multiple "affiliations," as a church can be in the SBC and in ARBCA, ABA, CBA, or whichever.
     
  8. NB3K

    NB3K Puritan Board Sophomore

    Calvinist's alongside Arminians is crazy. One proclaims the Biblical Truth, while the other holds it down in unrighteousness. The Reformers would have never tolerated that.
     
  9. Rufus

    Rufus Puritan Board Junior

    That's straight up denying original sin right there.
     
  10. NB3K

    NB3K Puritan Board Sophomore

    The whole document is a refutation to the Protestan Reformation. I know the intent wasn't there to refute the reformation, but if you read the articles, you will see every Reformation doctrine be4ing attacked.
     
  11. arapahoepark

    arapahoepark Puritan Board Senior

    Wow if Olson says it's semi-Pelagian, it's probably Pelagian.

    Joking, yes, it is quite sad that the SBC feels it has to do bizarre stuff because the Gospel offends the world.
     
  12. Supersillymanable

    Supersillymanable Puritan Board Freshman

    The sad thing is, I reckon many of the pastors in the "between the times" link posted, aren't entirely sure as to what Calvinism actually is. Just looking down the comments, people clearly have no idea what Calvinism actually is. Others point out that they think that possibly many of the pastors possibly don't actually know what each camp believes.

    In terms of the original post, is that a Lutheran blog? Is it just me, or do Lutherans often feel to many on this board, like they're trying to hold a compromise between biblical truth and error, and end up sounding confused...
     
  13. gordo

    gordo Puritan Board Freshman

    It's because Spurgeon preached in a way that people could relate to. He understood and believed and taught the sovereignty of God, but he preached it as humans could grasp and relate to. Read Around the Wicket Gate by Spurgeon and he sounds like he is preaching free will, but the more you get down to it, he is preaching God's sovereignty and it works really well together.
     
  14. TylerRay

    TylerRay Puritan Board Junior

    I think that this is very true. When I was newly a Calvinist, and still in the Southern Baptist church, I told my pastor that I was a Calvinist, and his response was, "you're not a hyper-Calvinist, are you?"

    On another occasion, I was talking with an SBC minister about what I believe, and he said, "now, I understand that not all Calvinists are five-point Calvinists," implying that five-point Calvinism is way off in left field. When I explained to him that I believe in the necessity of faith and repentance for salvation, etc., he was much more at ease. He didn't agree with me, but he saw that I what I held to was at least Christian.

    Most SBC ministers don't know what Calvinism is. That is no excuse, of course. I looked around in my former Pastor's office once, and he had all of three books in the room that he spends all day in. They don't see their ignorance as bad stewardship.

    Qualification: I also know very good Calvinistic ministers in the SBC, who do plenty of reading and studying. :scholar:
     
  15. Philip

    Philip Puritan Board Graduate

    In which case they would be schismatics, not reformed in ecclesiology. So long as they can, in good conscience, proclaim the true Gospel in the SBC, they should stay. Remember that the goal is to reform the church, not to split it.
     
  16. TylerRay

    TylerRay Puritan Board Junior

    I think should pull out to keep their lumps from getting leavened, and start a Baptist denomination with presbyterial government, so that (at the very least) they'll have real accountability.
     
  17. gordo

    gordo Puritan Board Freshman

    edited after some further reading.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2012
  18. Herald

    Herald Moderator Staff Member

    This whole SBC mess is actually a good thing. It will bring to a head the differences between Calvinism and semi-Pelagianism in Baptist ranks. The only reason it's even news is that Calvinism is making serious inroads within SBC churches specifically and Baptist churches in general.

    I've long believed that Founders-type churches will eventually leave the SBC. That, too, will be a good thing In my humble opinion.
     
  19. Rich Koster

    Rich Koster Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    The Old School SBC was from Calvinist roots. Then they got bit by the dispy bug. It would be a good thing to part on "friendly terms" and that way people will not have to tip-toe around certain doctrines to keep from starting a ruckus. Superficial unity is a cruel joke.
     
  20. arielann81

    arielann81 Puritan Board Freshman

    I came to this forum today looking for a discussion on just this issue so I was pleased when I saw one already started. I've read all your comments and I'm a relatively new Calvinist myself as of summer of 2011 but I tend to agree with those that say Arminian's water down the gospel and even though most my church "siblings" have mixed theology or lean more towards Arminian theology I don't think this helps. I was raised Arminian and would have defended that because I didn't know any better... I had never been taught another view. Once I became reformed I found that true growth happened and I have actually witnessed transformation in my life and those that I know who are reformed. In my limited experience I see most Arminian lack growth. Why should we support something that doesn't show fruit or doesn't inspire growth in others? Personally I think this an issue in churches today and worry that we have become too apathetic to attacks on the Gospel.

    Yes love should be our main goal, but should we love evil? No! Well what about counterfeits of the truth? Is that not how those governed by evil work? Its not the heresy outside the church that hurts us but the false doctrines within the church. It's one thing to love my erring "brother" but quite another to allow him to instruct someone that doesn't know anything of the gospel with half truths or mixed theology and say I'm ok with that. Then when someone has a counterfeit and doesn't see growth and leaves the church because it "didn't work for them" which I have encountered in the Seattle area quite a bit then I wonder if what they were given was truth at all. I start to question whether or not I have part responsibility because I say nothing?

    Just getting under my skin more and more lately.
     
  21. kappazei

    kappazei Puritan Board Freshman

    Have any of the Reformed denominations officially expressed concern to the SBC over that document?
     
  22. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

    Jason,

    You know me and we have talked a bit. I would caution you to slow down and consider what the scriptures say concerning who is a Child of God. I John speaks quite a bit concerning this topic.
    I have never read a passage of scripture that states if one doesn't believe in the doctrines of the Synod of Dort they aren't saved or Regenerate (Born Again). I have read John 5:24 which states....

    I am one of the few people who came to Christ knowing I was chosen because of the testimony of Scripture that I read. Not many people do that. I know many people who honestly know God and don't grasp the Sovereignty of God as I do. They have hearts that are filled with His Spirit and they walk much more closer to him than I have or do. They know their God. And their God is the Triune Holy One who is the Most High. I do believe that it is important to know certain things and they are musts but I do not believe that Arminians are not our brothers. Jacob Arminius was actually a Semi-Pelagian and not a Pelagian. There all kinds of different levels of understanding and faith. God gives them to us as we fill up the body of Christ. I love Romans 12:3. It has kept me in line many times through the years.

    The real measuring stick of knowing God according to the scripture in many places is how we love each other and our enemies. It is how we love not the world and how we care for those who are less fortunate. That is how we know who the brethren are. By the fruit of their lives and the doctrine of who Christ is. Is having the right Jesus Christ important? You bet ya. Doctrine is important. Shunning Idolatry is also.

    Anyways, I fully count my semi-pelagian Christian friends as my brothers. The ones I know do not trust in their works or life to deserve heaven or Christ's love. They fully trust lean upon the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ as they trust Him and His work on their behalf. They know my Shepherd and they are fully my brothers if they know Him the way I wish I did.
     
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