Is the Roman Catholic Mass / worship idolatry or not?

[JBaldwin]

The mass is idolatry. And since the other thread is closed, I would like to clarify my feelings about the difference between attending a catholic funeral or wedding vs. attending a mass for the purpose of worship. When attending a RCC mass, there can be no other reason for being there other than worship. At a funeral or wedding where the mass is a part of the service, it is clear to all (including the priest) that many are there who are not part of catholic church. Many family members, relatives, friends, neighbors and co-workers attend these type gatherings to show their love for the family, not to worship, and the RCC recognizes that.

 

[BobVigneault]

Jonah 4:11 And should not I pity Nineveh, that great city, in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know their right hand from their left, and also much cattle?”

This is my argument. These sheep are dumber than a bag full of Ninevite hammers!

LiveLeak.com - Faithful Flock To Garage Door.

 

[CDM]

The Mass is clearly idolatrous but we protest too loudly as if the RCC has the corner on idolatry. We should grieve and protest mainstream protestantism for it's idolatrous ways. The RCC is not the only church to fall into great error. We've had this very same discussion regarding arminian churches.

I agree there is other idolatry in "protestant" circles. However, the pope in rome and his system are at the zennith.

 

[A5pointer]

Bruce voted no.

Thanks for "outing" me. You are still mad at me about the Ruth/Boaz sex scandal

 

[greenbaggins]

Bruce voted no.

Thanks for "outing" me. You are still mad at me about the Ruth/Boaz sex scandal

Mad at you? Whatever would give you that impression?

 

[CDM]

By the way, who voted that it wasn't?

Yikes it was me I understand the angst about the theology of the wafer and the damnable Roman view of justification. I share it too. However to equate the mass with the intentional worship of gods(fully known by the worshipers not to be Christ) is a mistake. Wrong theology does not make it idolatry to the participants. We are looking from an informed outward position and correctly observing the grievous error. However as suggested the participants are not intentionally worshipping a non-Christ being/diety. Likewise if we attend a mass we certainly are not committing idolotry as we know better. Does this make sense to any of you?

Brother, what is idolatry as you understand it? It sounds like you mean that if one doesn't have a grasp of biblical theology they can't be held accountable for idolatry?

 

[Archlute]

When its theological foundations are understood, it is simple to give the correct answer. Romanist worship encourages idolatry in many ways, the mass being the most visible manifestation of this.

I am not getting it, do you mind explaining what you see? I think a definition of biblical idolatry would be helpful for the discussion. Thank you.

If you are asking a serious question, and really desire to put in some time to learn, I will give you these materials to help you begin a study on the idolatry of the mass in particular:

Calvin's Institutes - Book 4, chapter 17, sections 13-37

Turretin's Institutes - Volume 3, topic 19, questions 29-30


And for a work dealing with post-Tridentine developments in the RCC regarding the supper:

G. C. Berkouwer - Studies in Dogmatics, The Sacraments, chapter 13 "The Lord's Supper: a sacrifice?"

 

[JM]

I voted yes, but have to admit there is still a part of me that misses the Divine Liturgy and every Great Fast the urge to attend orthros is strong.

 

[greenbaggins]

I do agree with Joshua. Ignorance of the law and intention is no excuse. The second commandment does not forbid intentional idolatry only. God calls on all men everywhere to repent of their idolatries (Acts 17). This is the universal position of the Reformed theologians: the Mass is a condemnable idolatry. Furthermore, in a sense the question of the people in the pew is irrelevant to the discussion: the Mass is idolatry because of what the RCC says about it, and because of how they practice it. It is idolatry because of the priests who administer it. Or do you think, Bruce, that the priests also are exempt from intending idolatry and of ignorance?

 

[A5pointer]

Bruce voted no.

Thanks for "outing" me. You are still mad at me about the Ruth/Boaz sex scandal

Mad at you? Whatever would give you that impression?

Brother you gotta know I am kidding. That smiley face of yours looks like it could never get mad

 

[greenbaggins]

Thanks for "outing" me. You are still mad at me about the Ruth/Boaz sex scandal

Mad at you? Whatever would give you that impression?

Brother you gotta know I am kidding. That smiley face of yours looks like it could never get mad

I was fully aware of the fact that you were kidding. I was kidding, too. Hence the wink at the end of my post.

 

[A5pointer]

By the way, who voted that it wasn't?

Yikes it was me I understand the angst about the theology of the wafer and the damnable Roman view of justification. I share it too. However to equate the mass with the intentional worship of gods(fully known by the worshipers not to be Christ) is a mistake. Wrong theology does not make it idolatry to the participants. We are looking from an informed outward position and correctly observing the grievous error. However as suggested the participants are not intentionally worshipping a non-Christ being/diety. Likewise if we attend a mass we certainly are not committing idolotry as we know better. Does this make sense to any of you?

Brother, what is idolatry as you understand it? It sounds like you mean that if one doesn't have a grasp of biblical theology they can't be held accountable for idolatry?

Man, am I feeling lumped up here. You are misunderstanding me. I am suggesting a definition of idolotry that is the intentional worship of anything/being/diety that is not YHWH/Christ. I do think that by nature the practice of idolotry does have to be intentional. Worship by definition requires thinking/epistimology. This makes me think of this

17 "If you will not," said Naaman, "please let me, your servant, be given as much earth as a pair of mules can carry, for your servant will never again make burnt offerings and sacrifices to any other god but the LORD. 18 But may the LORD forgive your servant for this one thing: When my master enters the temple of Rimmon to bow down and he is leaning on my arm and I bow there also—when I bow down in the temple of Rimmon, may the LORD forgive your servant for this."

This may have bearing on the mass issue for the true believer or any of us that would intentionally wander in even if we do conceed it to be an idolotrous event. Guys thanks for the comments. I need my head examined for wandering into the Roman corner. I hope you all do understand that I share your distress over Roman theology.

 

[A5pointer]

Guys, I have to run thanks again. The more I think of the King's passage, I am thinking(no pun inteded) that idolatry and worship are by definition thinking mens games. Just food or thought. I will consider all that has been said.

 

[Blueridge Believer]

I've never claimed to be the sharpest tool in the shed and have had little experience with the RCC, but they do claim to eat Jesus literally and drink His literal blood and have killed many people over it. I do not think I could ever come up with language hard or strong enough to condemn this doctrine of devils.

 

[pilgrim3970]

Luther said that because he hadn't seen Joel Osteen and 21st century protestantism.

Amen Brother.

 

[ADKing]

Please note what the Romanists themselves claim to be doing in the mass.

1378 Worship of the Eucharist. In the liturgy of the Mass we express our faith in the real presence of Christ under the species of bread and wine by, among other ways, genuflecting or bowing deeply as a sign of adoration of the Lord. "The Catholic Church has always offered and still offers to the sacrament of the Eucharist the cult of adoration, not only during Mass, but also outside of it, reserving the consecrated hosts with the utmost care, exposing them to the solemn veneration of the faithful, and carrying them in procession."208



From the "Catechism of the Catholic Church". As you can see, they claim to be adoring and venerating the elements.

 

[Amazing Grace]

Ready - Fire - Aim!

Could you please give the definition of idolatry that we are measuring against?

Would this one work:

Idolatry etymologically denotes Divine worship given to an image, but its signification has been extended to all Divine worship given to anyone or anything but the true God. (The Catholic Encyclopedia)

Then the mass is idolatry, as it claims that a wafer is the very person of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I do not think Daniel should be the barometer of this thread. As a member of the Orange order he has obviously drank the "orange juice'' and is still ticked off with vehement hatred towards England!! I am voting for England to make another "pale" around dublin once again!!!!

 

[Wannabee]

From the Catholic Encyclopedia

eucharist.
The name given to the Blessed Sacrament of the Altar in its twofold aspect of sacrament and Sacrifice of Mass, and in which Jesus Christ is truly present under the bread and wine.


Sacrifice of the Mass

The simple fact that numerous heretics, such as Wyclif and Luther, repudiated the Mass as "idolatry", while retaining the Sacrament of the true Body and Blood of Christ, proves that the Sacrament of the Eucharist is something essentially different from the Sacrifice of the Mass. In truth, the Eucharist performs at once two functions: that of a sacrament and that of a sacrifice. Though the inseparableness of the two is most clearly seen in the fact that the consecrating sacrificial powers of the priest coincide, and consequently that the sacrament is produced only in and through the Mass, the real difference between them is shown in that the sacrament is intended privately for the sanctification of the soul, whereas the sacrifice serves primarily to glorify God by adoration, thanksgiving, prayer, and expiation [NOTE: Propitiation is not used]. The recipient of the one is God, who receives the sacrifice of His only-begotten Son; of the other, man, who receives the sacrament for his own good.


The Blessed Eucharist as a Sacrament


The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist

If, then, natural, literal interpretation were false, the Scriptural record alone would have to be considered as the cause of a pernicious error in faith and of the grievous crime of rendering Divine homage to bread (artolatria) — a supposition little in harmony with the character of the four Sacred Writers or with the inspiration of the Sacred Text. Moreover, we must not omit the important circumstance, that one of the four narrators has interpreted his own account literally. This is St. Paul (1 Corinthians 11:27 sq.), who, in the most vigorous language, brands the unworthy recipient as "guilty of body and of the blood of the Lord". There can be no question of a grievous offense against Christ Himself unless we suppose that the true Body and the true Blood of Christ are really present in the Eucharist...
In order to forestall at the very outset, the unworthy notion, that in the Eucharist we receive merely the Body and merely the Blood of Christ but not Christ in His entirety, the Council of Trent defined the Real Presence to be such as to include with Christ's Body and His Soul and Divinity as well. A strictly logical conclusion from the words of promise: "he that eateth me the same also shall live by me", this Totality of Presence was also the constant property of tradition, which characterized the partaking of separated parts of the Savior as a sarcophagy (flesh-eating) altogether derogatory to God. Although the separation of the Body, Blood, Soul, and Logos, is, absolutely speaking, within the almighty power of God, yet then actual inseparability is firmly established by the dogma of the indissolubility of the hypostatic union of Christ's Divinity and Humanity. In case the Apostles had celebrated the Lord's Supper during the triduum mortis (the time during which Christ's Body was in the tomb), when a real separation took place between the constitutive elements of Christ, there would have been really present in the Sacred Host only, the bloodless, inanimate Body of Christ as it lay in tomb, and in the Chalice only the Blood separated from His Body and absorbed by the earth as it was shed, both the Body and the Blood, however, hypostatically united to His Divinity, while His Soul, which sojourned in Limbo, would have remained entirely excluded from the Eucharistic presence...
There is, furthermore, a fourth kind of multilocation, which, however, has not been realized in the Eucharist, but would be, if Christ's Body were present in its natural mode of existence both in heaven and on earth. Such a miracle might be assumed to have occurred in the conversion of St. Paul before the gates of Damascus, when Christ in person said.to him: "Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?" So too the bilocation of saints, sometimes read of in the pages of hagiography, as, e.g., in the case of St. Alphonsus Liguori, cannot be arbitrarily cast aside as untrustworthy.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Hence, though the other thread is closed, I would attend an RC funeral in order to be the means of leading the sheep out.

If we just stand outside screaming "THE POPE IS ANTI-Christ! YOUR CHURCH IS THE CHURCH OF SATAN! YOU ARE IDOLATERS! I'M A ONE NOTE MELODY!", then we will have no effect on the people inside. We are turning our backs on those in need.

I believe without a doubt that many of the elements of the mass are idolatrous. The question I'm interested in is who are the idolaters?

Do we blame their traditions? The Vatican? The shepherds (false), The people in the pews?

My burden is for the people in the pews who are being misled, misinformed and misdirected. Therefore, as in a burning building I RUN to the sheep and not away from the sheep. The building is burning, the sheep need to be led out.

That would seem to be a question of degrees of guilt. I would not say that the people in the pews are anywhere near as guilty as the leadership.

I don't think we are turning our backs on them, just that it does not help them by attending. If there was no Protestant church nearby, would you go to a local RCC?

 

[shackleton]

I believe the official RCC position would be that they are "aids to faith." They give the worshiper something to focus his attention on when praying or worshipping.

I had a Catholic once tell me that it is similar to Buddhism or Hinduism in that they have thousand of Gods to pray to and the RCC has thousands of saints to pray to. This makes for an easy change over. If you know any Catholics you immediately see that they have a saint to pray to for anything that is happening in their lives, including selling ones house. Simply plant a statue of St. Joseph (Jesus' step dad) in your front yard and you will sell your house.

There is a lot wrong with the RCC but if you listen to their theology it is not that different from your average arminian. I think there are Catholics who are saved but I don't think anyone could ever get saved according to what the chruch teaches.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Idolatry....

(1Co 5:11) But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

This passage is about not keeping company with someone who is considered to be a brother. Roman Catholics are not my brothers in Christ. Most of them dont' understand the Mass. I tried explaining to someone not so long ago, that everytime the Priest does a mass he is reoffering and resacrificing Christ again in his mind. They actually believe that Jesus humbles himself every Mass and becomes the bread and wine for the people so they can eat his flesh and drink his blood and be assured of forgiveness of sin by partaking of the sacrifice.

My Bible says that Christ was sacrificed once for all.

The mass is idolatry and a false demonic way to deceive people away from the only way to be right from God.






Here is the Apostle Pauls definition of idolatry.

(Col 3:5) Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

(Col 3:6) For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Now lets play nice and be careful how we address each other on this thread and every thread. Be patient and loving. Not everyone has the same knowledge and harshness will turn people away. Harshness says I am correct and you are an idiot if you don't agree with me.

That is not how Christ would have us teach and love people.

(2Ti 2:24) And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

(2Ti 2:25) In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

(2Ti 2:26) And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Ready - Fire - Aim!

Could you please give the definition of idolatry that we are measuring against?

Would this one work:

Idolatry etymologically denotes Divine worship given to an image, but its signification has been extended to all Divine worship given to anyone or anything but the true God. (The Catholic Encyclopedia)

Then the mass is idolatry, as it claims that a wafer is the very person of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I do not think Daniel should be the barometer of this thread. As a member of the Orange order he has obviously drank the "orange juice'' and is still ticked off with vehement hatred towards England!! I am voting for England to make another "pale" around dublin once again!!!!

I left the Orange Order 5 years ago. But I am still an Ulster Protestant, and that means one thing: No Pope Here!!!

 

[pilgrim3970]

Some random thoughts:

To me the bigger problem with the Mass is belief that during the Mass Christ is offered up anew.

Priest: Pray, my brothers and sisters, that our sacrifice
may be acceptable to God, the almighty Father.

All: May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands,
for the praise and glory of his name,
for our good, and the good of all his Church.

This , to me, is MUCH more problematic (and just completley unbiblical) than the insistance the accidents change. One may debate about what Christ meant by "This is my body..." but there is just no debate to be had about the words of scripture which say:

but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, (Heb. 10:12)

That's not to say that the belief that the elements physically become the body and blood of Christ isn't also problem. Because it has led to the superstitious practice of the "veneration of the blessed scarament" in which the wafer is placed in a chapel for the faithful to adore and prayer before.

To Roman Catholics, they are not "worshipping the bread" but worshipping Christ.

Their adoration of the scarament is much like the orthodox and their veneration of icons. Both view this like (and this is an example given to me by an aquaitence who is Eastern Orthodox) the way one might kiss or look with affection on a picture of a loved one.

Ok, I feel like I am rambling but hope some of this is useful information.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

I don't think we are turning our backs on them, just that it does not help them by attending. If there was no Protestant church nearby, would you go to a local RCC?

I have been to a few Masses in my time. One reason was to learn, the other was to be a friend. I didn't worship or partake of the mass as a testimony. These people are not demons. They are just as deceived as the common man on the street who knows not God. They are idolatrous similar to the man who worships work or his racing. I go to places of employment. I walk into federal Government buildings (which I am not all that fond of either) to do business. And I hear God's name blasphemed in all of these places.

I actually have friends I hang out with that are not Christian, believe it or not. Some of them partake in law breaking. But I am there friend and I love them. Jesus went to the Synagogue which later is called the Synagogue of Satan. Paul went to them also.

Be careful how you guys want to judge others.

P.S. I was wearing my moderator hat in some of this.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

I don't think we are turning our backs on them, just that it does not help them by attending. If there was no Protestant church nearby, would you go to a local RCC?

I have been to a few Masses in my time. One reason was to learn, the other was to be a friend. I didn't worship or partake of the mass as a testimony. These people are not demons. They are just as deceived as the common man on the street who knows not God. They are idolatrous similar to the man who worships work or his racing. I go to places of employment. I walk into federal Government buildings (which I am not all that fond of either) to do business. And I hear God's name blasphemed in all of these places.

I actually have friends I hang out with that are not Christian, believe it or not. Some of them partake in law breaking. But I am there friend and I love them. Jesus went to the Synagogue which later is called the Synagogue of Satan. Paul went to them also.

Be careful how you guys want to judge others.

The question is though, how do we help them by attending the Mass? We should befriend Roman Catholics, and other sinners, but not partake with them in their sins? It is difficult to see how attending a Roman Catholic service is anything but participating in it.

Having said that, I would not go as far as Ian Paisley's church does. They automatically excommunicate anyone who attends a Mass (or at least they used to). I think this is too harsh, as not all Christians have the same level of knowledge; instead, I would want the elders to admonish and instruct them first, and only exercise more severe discipline if they repeatedly went to it.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

I don't think we are turning our backs on them, just that it does not help them by attending. If there was no Protestant church nearby, would you go to a local RCC?

I have been to a few Masses in my time. One reason was to learn, the other was to be a friend. I didn't worship or partake of the mass as a testimony. These people are not demons. They are just as deceived as the common man on the street who knows not God. They are idolatrous similar to the man who worships work or his racing. I go to places of employment. I walk into federal Government buildings (which I am not all that fond of either) to do business. And I hear God's name blasphemed in all of these places.

I actually have friends I hang out with that are not Christian, believe it or not. Some of them partake in law breaking. But I am there friend and I love them. Jesus went to the Synagogue which later is called the Synagogue of Satan. Paul went to them also.

Be careful how you guys want to judge others.

The question is though, how do we help them by attending the Mass? We should befriend Roman Catholics, and other sinners, but not partake with them in their sins? It is difficult to see how attending a Roman Catholic service is anything but participating in it.

Having said that, I would not go as far as Ian Paisley's church does. They automatically excommunicate anyone who attends a Mass (or at least they used to). I think this is too harsh, as not all Christians have the same level of knowledge; instead, I would want the elders to admonish and instruct them first, and only exercise more severe discipline if they repeatedly went to it.

Just because you don't see how attending an RC service is anything but participating in it, doesn't mean you have to understand it from my point of view or anyone elses.

You do have to respect others positions on this board as brothers in Christ.

I respect your choices Daniel. You don't have to agree with mine. But you do have to understand that I live before the Lord as you do. I will bare the responsibility to him as you will for your understanding. Maybe, this is not as clear cut as you understand it to be. Be respectful of others. Thanks

 

[Presbyterian Deacon]

Idolatry. Yes, certainly.

Venerating wafers and praying to Mary is certainly not the worship of the one True God! In my humble opinion

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

I have been to a few Masses in my time. One reason was to learn, the other was to be a friend. I didn't worship or partake of the mass as a testimony. These people are not demons. They are just as deceived as the common man on the street who knows not God. They are idolatrous similar to the man who worships work or his racing. I go to places of employment. I walk into federal Government buildings (which I am not all that fond of either) to do business. And I hear God's name blasphemed in all of these places.

I actually have friends I hang out with that are not Christian, believe it or not. Some of them partake in law breaking. But I am there friend and I love them. Jesus went to the Synagogue which later is called the Synagogue of Satan. Paul went to them also.

Be careful how you guys want to judge others.

The question is though, how do we help them by attending the Mass? We should befriend Roman Catholics, and other sinners, but not partake with them in their sins? It is difficult to see how attending a Roman Catholic service is anything but participating in it.

Having said that, I would not go as far as Ian Paisley's church does. They automatically excommunicate anyone who attends a Mass (or at least they used to). I think this is too harsh, as not all Christians have the same level of knowledge; instead, I would want the elders to admonish and instruct them first, and only exercise more severe discipline if they repeatedly went to it.

Just because you don't see how attending an RC service is anything but participating in it, doesn't mean you have to understand it from my point of view or anyone elses.

You do have to respect others positions on this board as brothers in Christ.

I respect your choices Daniel. You don't have to agree with mine. But you do have to understand that I live before the Lord as you do. I will bare the responsibility to him as you will for your understanding. Maybe, this is not as clear cut as you understand it to be. Be respectful of others. Thanks

As an interesting aside, JG Machen would have attended RC services but would not have partook of the Mass. The problem is that it does not in my opinion bear good testimony to Christ to attend a service of worship which is explicitly against His glory; the Lord has told us to "flee from idolatry". Having said that, I do respect the motives of others on the board and don't think that they are intentionally trying to harm people.

 

[BertMulder]

Although God will certainly judge the deceivers, and they will receive the greater condemnation.

 

[A5pointer]

Hey, I am back. This thread if read carefully wanders off target. Much has been rightly said about the errors of theology in the mass. It is universally agreed here that the mass in it's theology is wrong, badly wrong, dishonoring to Christ and his work and even despicable. But the question begs does all this necessarily equal "idol worship" intrinsically? I have been painted into a corner as if I am defending RC practice and theology. I am merely suggesting that to equate the mass to idol worship is a stretch. As the lone dissenter I thank those who have shown concern about charitable conversation but I am fine with it. I respect the opinions of those expressed and the fervency that may come through as harsh. If I may refer to the question of whether the mass should be avoided by us. If the mass in fact is biblical idol worship, I suggest then that it is forbidden by Paul to attend. He says that even though Idols are not real that worship of demons is in fact occurring at said cultic events.

I have suggested that Idol worship would require some extent of mental awareness or volition. Maybe this would be a valuable part of the conversation. I put forward this again to suggest validity to this opinion.

17 "If you will not," said Naaman, "please let me, your servant, be given as much earth as a pair of mules can carry, for your servant will never again make burnt offerings and sacrifices to any other god but the LORD. 18 But may the LORD forgive your servant for this one thing: When my master enters the temple of Rimmon to bow down and he is leaning on my arm and I bow there also—when I bow down in the temple of Rimmon, may the LORD forgive your servant for this."
19 "Go in peace," Elisha said.

Here, the prophet's theology seems to acknowledge that worship is a matter of the intellect/heart. When we say the mass equals/is idol worship are we saying it is what Paul condemns to the Corinthians. Is it equal to what YHWH forbid the ancients to do? I still see it as a leap. Again, I am not defending RC thought or practice so please refrain from dashing that straw man. Thanks again brothers and sisters.