Is the Roman Catholic Mass / worship idolatry or not?

Discussion in 'Cults & World Religions' started by CDM, May 7, 2008.

  1. YES

    77 vote(s)
    97.5%
  2. NO

    2 vote(s)
    2.5%
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  1. CDM

    CDM Puritan Board Junior

    Is the Roman Catholic Mass / worship idolatry or not?

    Why or why not?


    ***I am not quite sure why many struggle in answering this question, but, I hope to gain an understanding why this is so - I am not content with my speculations. So, for those who refrain from answering, please, at least explain why you won’t.***
     
  2. Archlute

    Archlute Puritan Board Senior

    When its theological foundations are understood, it is simple to give the correct answer. Romanist worship encourages idolatry in many ways, the mass being the most visible manifestation of this.
     
  3. Blueridge Believer

    Blueridge Believer Puritan Board Professor

    It is idolatrous blasphemy. The height of ignorant superstition.
     
  4. Reformed Covenanter

    Reformed Covenanter Puritan Board Doctor

    If the mass be not idolatry, then the second commandment has never been broken. :2cents:
     
  5. CDM

    CDM Puritan Board Junior

  6. A5pointer

    A5pointer Puritan Board Sophomore

    I am not getting it, do you mind explaining what you see? I think a definition of biblical idolatry would be helpful for the discussion. Thank you.
     
  7. BobVigneault

    BobVigneault Bawberator Staff Member

    Ready - Fire - Aim!

    Could you please give the definition of idolatry that we are measuring against?

    Would this one work:

    Idolatry etymologically denotes Divine worship given to an image, but its signification has been extended to all Divine worship given to anyone or anything but the true God. (The Catholic Encyclopedia)
     
  8. Reformed Covenanter

    Reformed Covenanter Puritan Board Doctor

    Then the mass is idolatry, as it claims that a wafer is the very person of the Lord Jesus Christ.
     
  9. CDM

    CDM Puritan Board Junior

    Good suggestions. We'll start with the aforemetioned John Knox's most basic syllogism:

     
  10. Blueridge Believer

    Blueridge Believer Puritan Board Professor


    That Knox dude was a troublemaker. :lol:
     
  11. CDM

    CDM Puritan Board Junior

    Brother, pick any (generally held) definition you wish. The self-proclaimed *Vicar of God* meets them all including the one you just posited.
     
  12. A5pointer

    A5pointer Puritan Board Sophomore

    The wafer however is not worshiped is it? Believe me, I feel very weird defending anything RC. I just think it is overboard and moving beyond the biblical definition of idolotry to label the mass as such. I am looking forward to this conversation as instructional. I voted no.
     
  13. Reformed Covenanter

    Reformed Covenanter Puritan Board Doctor

    It was not Knox who troubled Israel (Scotland ;)) but Mary Queen of Scots. :flamingscot:
     
  14. BobVigneault

    BobVigneault Bawberator Staff Member

    I believe without a doubt that many of the elements of the mass are idolatrous. The question I'm interested in is who are the idolaters?

    Do we blame their traditions? The Vatican? The shepherds (false), The people in the pews?

    My burden is for the people in the pews who are being misled, misinformed and misdirected. Therefore, as in a burning building I RUN to the sheep and not away from the sheep. The building is burning, the sheep need to be led out.
     
  15. Reformed Covenanter

    Reformed Covenanter Puritan Board Doctor

    If the wafer is actually the Lord Jesus Christ then they should worship it. Moreover, let us not forget that the Romanists also worship Mary and the Saints, and are thus idolaters on that basis alone.
     
  16. A5pointer

    A5pointer Puritan Board Sophomore

    You are kind of off topic here. We are not shooting apart all the bad theology in RC just defining if the mass is worship of idols.
     
  17. Reformed Covenanter

    Reformed Covenanter Puritan Board Doctor

    That would seem to be a question of degrees of guilt. I would not say that the people in the pews are anywhere near as guilty as the leadership.
     
  18. Blueridge Believer

    Blueridge Believer Puritan Board Professor

    (the following is from Spurgeon)

    Where, then, did the mass come from, and of what
    avail is it? The Lord's Supper was intended to be
    the remembrancer to us of our Lord's sufferings;
    instead of which it has been prostituted by the
    Church of Rome into the blasphemy of a pretended
    continual offering up of the body of the Lord Jesus
    Christ, a continual sacrifice. According to the Romish
    doctrine the offering upon Calvary is not enough-
    the atonement for sin is not finished- it has to be
    performed every day, and many times a day, in the
    Catholic churches, by certain appointed persons,
    so that that sacrifice is always being offered.
    Oh! brethren, the mass is a mass of abominations,
    a mass of hell's own concocting, a crying insult
    against the Lord of glory. It is not to be spoken
    of in any terms but those of horror and detestation.
    Whenever I think of another sacrifice for sin being
    offered, by whoever it may be presented, I can
    only regard it as an infamous insult to the
    perfection of the Savior's work.
    Popery swarms with worshipers of the god
    whom the baker bakes in the oven, and whom
    they bite with their teeth.

    What of the Catholic sacrament of penance?
    Is not penance in its essence an offering for sin?
    I do not care who it is that prescribes the penance,
    nor what it is, whether it is licking the pavement
    with your tongues, or wearing a hair-shirt, or laying
    on the whip- if it be supposed that by the mortification
    of the flesh, men can take away sin, the Scripture
    is like a two-edged sword to pierce the inmost heart
    of such teaching. Take off your hair-shirt, poor fool!
    Wash the stones with a dish-cloth, and keep your
    tongue clean. There is no need for these fooleries!
    Christ has completed the atonement, you need not
    suffer thus. You need not, like Luther, go up and down
    the stone staircase on your knees, and think that
    your poor sore knees will find favor with God.
    Christ has suffered, God exacts no more. Do not try to
    supplement his gold with your dross. Do not try to add
    to his matchless robes, the rags of your poor penance.

    How these verses shut the gates of purgatory!
    It is held that there are some who die who are believers,
    but who are not quite purified from sin, and in an after
    state they must undergo a purgatorial quarantine to be
    purged by fire, so that they may become quite complete.
    Beloved, when the thief died on the cross he had but
    just believed, and had never done a single good work,
    but where did he go to? Well, he ought to have gone to
    purgatory by rights, if ever anybody did, but instead of
    that the Savior said to him, "Today you shall be with
    me in Paradise." Why? Because the ground of the man's
    admission into Paradise was perfect. The grounds of
    his admission there was Christ's work, and that is how
    you and I will get into heaven, because Christ's work
    is finished. The thief did not go down to purgatory,
    nor, blessed be his name, neither shall you nor I if
    we trust in the finished work of the Lord Jesus.

    "The death he died, he died to sin once for all..."
    Romans 6:10
    "He sacrificed for their sins once for all when
    he offered himself." Hebrews 7:27
    "He entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his
    own blood, having obtained eternal redemption."
    Hebrews 9:12
    "But now he has appeared once for all at the end
    of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice
    of himself." Hebrews 9:26
    "so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the
    sins of many people...." Hebrews 9:28
    "we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the
    body of Jesus Christ once for all." Hebrews 10:10
     
  19. CDM

    CDM Puritan Board Junior

    :confused: I meant pick any definition of IDOALTRY that you wish. All of the generally held definitions of idolatry the RCC meets....that was my point.
     
  20. BobVigneault

    BobVigneault Bawberator Staff Member

    Hence, though the other thread is closed, I would attend an RC funeral in order to be the means of leading the sheep out.

    If we just stand outside screaming "THE POPE IS ANTI-CHRIST! YOUR CHURCH IS THE CHURCH OF Satan! YOU ARE IDOLATERS! I'M A ONE NOTE MELODY!", then we will have no effect on the people inside. We are turning our backs on those in need.

     
  21. Blueridge Believer

    Blueridge Believer Puritan Board Professor

    No one could possibly sum it up better that Luther:


    The Mass! The Pope! The Roman Church!

    The following gems were written by Martin Luther.
    Prior to being saved by the grace of God, Luther
    was a Roman Catholic priest.

    "The Mass is the greatest blasphemy
    of God, and the highest idolatry upon
    the earth, an abomination the like of
    which has never been in Christendom."

    "The Kingdom of Christ is a kingdom
    of mercy, grace, and goodness. The
    kingdom of the Pope is a kingdom
    of lies and damnation!"

    "The Roman Church has become
    the most licentious den of thieves,
    the most shameless of all brothels,
    the kingdom of sin, death, and hell.
    It is so bad that even Antichrist
    himself, if he should come, could
    think of nothing to add to its wickedness."
     
  22. BobVigneault

    BobVigneault Bawberator Staff Member

    Luther said that because he hadn't seen Joel Osteen and 21st century protestantism.
     
  23. greenbaggins

    greenbaggins Administrator Staff Member

    One could biblically define worship as anything or anyone to which/whom we bow down in service. The RCC's bow down to the wafer as to the body of Christ. Therefore they worship the wafer. Since the wafer is not God, it is idolatry. Heidelberg Catechism 80 (last part of the answer): "Thus the Mass is basically nothing but a denial of the one sacrifice and suffering of Jesus Christ and a condemnable idolatry."
     
  24. BobVigneault

    BobVigneault Bawberator Staff Member

    The Mass is clearly idolatrous but we protest too loudly as if the RCC has the corner on idolatry. We should grieve and protest mainstream protestantism for it's idolatrous ways. The RCC is not the only church to fall into great error. We've had this very same discussion regarding arminian churches.
     
  25. greenbaggins

    greenbaggins Administrator Staff Member

  26. Blueridge Believer

    Blueridge Believer Puritan Board Professor


    :lol:
     
  27. CDM

    CDM Puritan Board Junior

    Brother, why can't you simply wait outside to help those who were just inside claiming to resacrifice our Lord and eat his flesh, blood, and divinity?

    Would you also follow a prostitute into the hotel room with her "Jon" to *help* or would you wait outside for her then help her?
     
  28. A5pointer

    A5pointer Puritan Board Sophomore


    Yikes it was me:eek: I understand the angst about the theology of the wafer and the damnable Roman view of justification. I share it too. However to equate the mass with the intentional worship of gods(fully known by the worshipers not to be Christ) is a mistake. Wrong theology does not make it idolatry to the participants. We are looking from an informed outward position and correctly observing the grievous error. However as suggested the participants are not intentionally worshiping a non-Christ being/diety. Likewise if we attend a mass we certainly are not committing idolotry as we know better. Does this make sense to any of you?
     
  29. holyfool33

    holyfool33 Puritan Board Freshman

    Yes it is ioldatry because you are saying Jesus is now a waifer and you are worshiping a wafer as the prosonification of God that is IDOLOATRY
     
  30. BobVigneault

    BobVigneault Bawberator Staff Member

    You could ask Haggai that question. If the prostitute was my sister or daughter I would not wait outside.


     
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