biblelighthouse
Puritan Board Junior
Originally posted by VanVos
As I have stated numerous times it has nothing to do with New Covenant breaking. This is redemptive historical of God's dealings with the two major ethnic groups (Jew and Gentile), not the ordo salutis.
I never suggested that the olive tree had anything to do with the ordo salutis.
Furthermore, your suggestion that this passage merely deals with "God's dealings with the two major ethnic groups" doesn't fly. It's like saying, "God was talking about omeletes, not eggs." Plus, it simply is not true that God turned totally away from the Israelites, and totally toward the Gentiles. If that were the case, then Rom. 11 would say that ALL the old branches would be broken off, not merely SOME of them, as the text says. --- But since only SOME are broken off, and SOME remain, we cannot merely be looking at God's dealing with an ethnic group . . . we are also looking at how God is dealing with INDIVIDUAL MEMBERS of that ethnic group. Which Israelites were broken off? The unbelieving ones. Which ones remained? The believing ones. Because of that word "some" in Rom. 11:17, it is not possible to turn this text into a general and simplistic "turning from the Israelites to the Gentiles" text. While that overarching view is certainly true, and is certainly included in this text, that view alone cannot account for certain features of this text, particularly that phrase, "some branches".
Originally posted by VanVos
Surely your not saying that there could have been a Jew in Paul's day that was originally in the Covenant, and then out of the Covenant (verse 17), and then back in the Covenant (verse 23) Makes no sense sorry.
Yes, that is precisely what happened.
In fact, there is a prominent Jew in Paul's day who fits this very description: Paul himself!
Saul of Tarsus was definitely born a covenant member and he was given the covenant sign.
But then Saul was cut off from the covenant, by rejecting Christ. Saul himself was one of the branches broken off the olive tree due to his unbelief.
Then, thankfully, in Acts 9, Christ appeared to Saul and changed his heart as well as his name. Paul, now a believer in Christ, was grafted back into the olive tree. Paul was in covenant with God again.
Originally posted by VanVos
Surely you are not suggesting that they were "never in the New Covenant"!
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Surely John wasn't suggesting that these people were never in New Covenant.
John certainly suggested no such thing. These people were New Covenant members, who proved themselves apostate, and received the covenant curses. That they "were not all of us" is a reference to their unregenerate status.
Originally posted by VanVos
Allow the clearer portions of scripture to interpret more the symbolic.
I agree . . . you mean passages like Hebrews 10:26?
Originally posted by VanVos
Btw even though we disagree I do appreciate the discussion.
God bless Jonathan
I appreciate the discussion too, my brother.
God bless you!
(And congratulations to what you're doing, teaching the doctrines of grace in your church . . . that's got to be tough in the AOG denomination!!)