Is New Covenant Theology An Acceptable Reason to Leave a Church?

Discussion in 'Covenant Theology' started by pslagle2012, Nov 27, 2017.

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  1. pslagle2012

    pslagle2012 Puritan Board Freshman

    I go to a NCT church in the area. My wife and I are both CT and our pastor is aware of the disagreement. I am pretty involved at the church as I teach community group and do the benediction every Sunday. I have been studying NCT more lately and it's made me a bit concerned. I am seeing a denial of the moral law as a more serious issue than before. I know we would have to go through a process of discussion with my church and not just leave but do you think it is even grounds to leave at all? Also a factor is that I am paedobaptist and my church is Baptist so there are various areas of disagreement.
     
  2. TylerRay

    TylerRay Puritan Board Senior

    Is there a strong Reformed/Presbyterian church nearby?
     
  3. Ask Mr. Religion

    Ask Mr. Religion Flatly Unflappable

  4. pslagle2012

    pslagle2012 Puritan Board Freshman

    There is an EPC church nearby and three PCA churches between 30-40 minutes away. The rest are all NCT Baptist.
     
  5. pslagle2012

    pslagle2012 Puritan Board Freshman

    Thanks for reminding me of that conversation. Good advice.
     
  6. TylerRay

    TylerRay Puritan Board Senior

    Do you know if any of the PCA churches are confessional?

    I'd caution you against joining yourself to the EPC--it would mean committing the care of your souls to those whom Christ has specifically excluded from office--i.e., women. Even if that's not the case on the congregational level, it will be the case on the presbyterial and synodical levels.
     
  7. Andrew P.C.

    Andrew P.C. Puritan Board Junior


    I hate to be the one to ask, but are you an ordained minister?
     
  8. pslagle2012

    pslagle2012 Puritan Board Freshman

    I am not, although my pastor has expressed interest in ordaining me at some point. Our church is a very small Baptist congregation and I am just trying to be edifying to the body. I have filled pulpits in the area for a long time so some type of teaching role just made sense and it was a need. Lord willing, my life will lead into ordination eventually.
     
  9. Jack K

    Jack K Puritan Board Professor

    If you are to be ordained, you should be particularly careful to complete that process in a church that fits your convictions. There will be too many difficulties ahead if you don't.

    Otherwise, I think both choices are viable. There are very good reasons to be in a church that fits your convictions and teaches the soundest doctrine. But there are also very good reasons to avoid church-hopping and stay committed to a group of believers where there has been mutual encouragement and accountability.

    When as good Presbyterians we moved to our current town and had to pick a church to join, we had serious non-doctrinal concerns about the only faithful Presbyterian church in the area. After much angst, we decided to join a Calvinistic but largely NCT Baptist church instead. Now, eleven years later, we hear that the concerns we had about the Presbyterian church have been eliminated. Does this mean we should leave our Baptist church now that there's a better fit and purer confession of faith across town?

    Maybe. But so far, we have stayed where we are. Despite areas of disagreement with our current church, the overall teaching and approach to worship is good, and we got our kids baptized before we arrived here. More importantly, we have invested eleven years in mutual burden-bearing, forgiveness of hurts and shortcomings, encouragement, and celebration of God's goodness. That's an important and beautiful part of what it means to belong to a church. It requires commitment, and is not something to cast aside as soon as a better option comes along. There's always a better church somewhere, but switching churches can destroy much of what life in the church is supposed to be in the first place.

    So should you find a better church? Quite possibly. But I don't think you necessarily should feel you are compromising if you decide to stay. You may have excellent reasons based on a great understanding of the church.
     
  10. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    I hold to reformed baptist viewpoint, and would advise you my brother to join yourself with a like minded church, especially if you are called to be a pastor, as you would find yourself keep going against their baptist theology at times.
     
  11. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    Even if there were a CT reformed Baptist church, your viewpoints on some issues would find yourself in disagreement with them, so would advise to move unto local Presbyterian church in your area.
     
  12. bookslover

    bookslover Puritan Board Doctor

    In the PCA, you could also get men in tights doing liturgical dance. So, there's that... LOL
     
  13. TylerRay

    TylerRay Puritan Board Senior

    Brother,
    It sounds like the ecclesiology is seriously lacking at that church, which means that your family is not being shepherded according to Scriptural principles. The fact that he is having you pronounce the benediction without ordination, and that he has considered ordaining you without agreement in doctrine throws up a red flag. I would advise you to seek membership in a confessional Reformed congregation, especially if you intend the ministry. You need to be mentored in the Reformed faith if you intend to teach it to others.
     
  14. John Yap

    John Yap Puritan Board Freshman

    I am curious, how do NCT respond to why stealing is wrong?
     
  15. Tyrese

    Tyrese Puritan Board Sophomore

    Great post! Doctrine is definetly important. But we can’t talk about another Church as if it’s not a Church. If ministry is in view, leave. If not, I’d carefully consider wether leaving is the right thing. I think once we’re able to make a decision with a clear conscience, we’ve made the right decision.
     
  16. BG

    BG Puritan Board Junior

    New Covenant Antinominism ( it is not theology) is heresy you have to leave. You said yourself that they denied the moral law, how long before they act on that? Protect your wife and family before the wife swapping starts. A friend of mine who attended a Reformed Baptist Church with me about ten years ago has embraced NCA he told me polygamy was not a sin. Run
     
  17. Jake

    Jake Puritan Board Junior

    It looks like you're about 45 minutes from Pittsburgh. You have a lot of options for Reformed churches nearby, even if not right in town.
     
  18. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    What would be to me the red flag was that our brother was trying to be ministering in a church where their basic theology would be t odds with his own, so how could they respect him. or how could he preach and teach?
     
  19. Jack K

    Jack K Puritan Board Professor

    I'm a covenant theology guy too, but don't you think it's going way overboard to suggest that due to being NCT a church is about to encourage wife-swapping? It's more helpful to challenge a church based on beliefs and practices it actually follows, rather than make up scandalous scenarios that have no basis in fact. Have you really seen this in NCT churches you know? Really?
     
  20. BG

    BG Puritan Board Junior

    Of course it’s over the top that’s why I said it

    If it is a Heresy and it is, it should be mocked. We applaud men like Calvin and Luther for their stance against false teaching but if you speak out against it today you are somehow unkind and unloving. We could never have a reformation today we lack men with enough testicular fortitude to do so.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
  21. koenig

    koenig Puritan Board Freshman

    I'm not NCT by any stretch of the imagination, but this is a command that is repeated in the NT, so they would say that it is guaranteed that it exists in the Law of Christ as it did in the Law of Moses.

    Your question still applies to commands that aren't repeated, though, which usually means the Lord's Day. And NCT isn't a cohesive movement with one answer to that; it ranges from "then the Sabbath no longer applies" to "it applies, but not necessarily on a fixed day of the week" to "be sure not to overwork yourself or your family".
     
  22. Jack K

    Jack K Puritan Board Professor

    Yeah, I've never been a big fan of the idea that God desires his people to be adept at mocking. I also like to be more guarded in the use of the word "heresy," so as not to suggest damnable errors (such as Trinitarian ones) are present when they actually are not.
     
  23. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    That is my understanding of NCT theology, in that those holding to it would say that we as Christians are still under the obligations of the law if it got rementioned and placed over to us in the NT itself. They would thus be accepting 9 of the 10 for us today, so wife swapping would be sinful to thm also.
     
  24. BG

    BG Puritan Board Junior

    Then by all means don’t read Calvin, Luther or any puritans
     
  25. Jack K

    Jack K Puritan Board Professor

    It takes more work, but it is possible (those men prove it) to offer sharp critique while still describing the positions and practices of one's opponents accurately. Then one is both defending the truth and practicing truth.
     
  26. TrustGzus

    TrustGzus Puritan Board Freshman

    I agree with you, Jack. I’m not Calvin, Luther or one of the Puritans. I’m naturally good at mocking. I’m not naturally good at 2 Timothy 2:24-26. I’d rather be good at 2 Timothy.

    24 The Lord’s servant must not quarrel, but must be gentle to everyone, able to teach, and patient, 25 instructing his opponents with gentleness. Perhaps God will grant them repentance leading them to the knowledge of the truth. 26 Then they may come to their senses and escape the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

    God’s word commands us to be gentle. Even if Calvin, Luther or Puritans did X or Y, that doesn’t mean they were right and we should follow them. They were great. They weren’t infallible or sinless.
     
  27. BG

    BG Puritan Board Junior

    Matthew 5:19

    All through the Bible people are mocked. Truth is by nature confrontational if we are going to stand for truth we will be forced to confront people. compromise and appeasement has gotten us nowhere. I for one am tired of soft men with soft theologies who preach a water down gospel and portray Jesus as a sugary sweet God who just wants to give everybody a big group hug. May God once again raise up a generation of men who love him and his word so much that they are willing to put heretics to death. I’ll let you have the last word I’ve got a run out and get a Mani-pedi and a latte.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2017
  28. Ben Zartman

    Ben Zartman Puritan Board Sophomore

    Our Lord was meek and lowly of heart, and still managed to call the Scribes and Pharisees some pretty scathing things. John the Baptist could lay it on pretty harshly as well. I see no reason we should not be like Jesus in this matter, and making allowance for not having all wisdom, still let heretics and prevaricators have it.
     
  29. Jack K

    Jack K Puritan Board Professor

    The issue I bring up here is not whether mocking can be appropriate at times (it surely can). Rather, I question whether we should get loose with the truth in order to mock opponents for things they don't actually believe or practice. What's more important: getting in a good jab or being careful about the truth?

    Increasingly, we live within a media culture that believes delivering a one-liner to discredit the bad guys is more important than speaking truth in the process. Believers should resist this trend.

    When Jesus criticized the Pharisees, he did not make up over-the-top lies about them in order to get a bigger laugh at their expense so his well-deserved jabs would sting more. Telling the truth matters, especially when we set ourselves up as defenders of truth. We must make sure our criticism—even our mocking criticism—is essentially fair and accurate.

    In the example on this thread, the barb in question was not just over-the-top for the sake of effect. More than one poster pointed out that the entire direction of the barb did not truthfully reflect the beliefs and practices of those churches. Once this was made clear, why did the untruthful joke keep getting defended?

    I don't think I'm being a spoil-sport here. I like fun, witty language and sharply-made points. But especially on a thread where we have a fellow seriously wrestling with whether or not to leave his church, attention to truth is needed. A jab isn't always right just because it neatly mocks those on the wrong side.
     
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  30. Edward

    Edward Puritan Board Doctor

    Polygamy is Old Testament. You'll need to connect those dots.
     
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