Is kneeling permitted in worship?
- Thread starter Pergamum
- Start date
- Status
The Puritans spent a lot of argument to contend that kneeling in communion was in effect idolatry amongst other objections. See George Gillespie's argument in part three chapter four of his book against the English ceremonies.
J. Dean
Puritan Board Junior
Depends on if you're kneeling in humility to God vs. kneeling in adoration of a physical object (ie-the Catholic eucharist).
Just because one is kneeling during communion does not mean he is doing so in direct worship of the elements in an idolatrous fashion.
That being said, I think it's more about the position of the heart before God than it is the physical prostration of the body.
Just because one is kneeling during communion does not mean he is doing so in direct worship of the elements in an idolatrous fashion.
That being said, I think it's more about the position of the heart before God than it is the physical prostration of the body.
Pilgrim Standard
Puritan Board Sophomore
What is NOT PERMITTED is the binding of ones conscience to the matter of kneeling without scriptural warrant.
cajunhillbilly53
Puritan Board Freshman
Kneeling is a sign of reverence for God and should not be outlawed because it looks like "Romanism". There is too much of a reaction to "Romanism" in Reformed circles and we tend to throw the baby out with the bath water, as the saying goes. So yes, it should be permissable to kneel when praying to God, or stand if you are so led.
I think the problem in our day is we've thrown over reformation principles and there is not enough reaction against Romanism.
Pilgrim Standard
Puritan Board Sophomore
Willard, have you thought this through?
By this line of reasoning we are permitted to do anything we so feel led to do in worship as long as we claim it to be a sign of reverence.
Stargazer65
Puritan Board Freshman
Is kneeling for prayer really going to lead to worship anarchy? It's not like anybody is talking about jumping jacks or headstands. Jesus knelt down for prayer, so I don't think it started in Rome.
JBaldwin
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I agree.
The kneeling before the Eucharist in a Roman Catholic mass is idoltry. Ask any knowledgeable Roman Catholic, and he will tell you that he is kneeling before the "body of Christ" in reverence (worship) when he kneels to partake of the wafer and wine. The catholics treat the wafer and wine as if they are the physical body of Christ. This is what the puritans would have rejected.
Kneeling in prayer would be another matter.
I agree about prayer but to say the RC view was all the Puritans rejected is not quite right. I refer again to the chapter in Gillespie's English popish ceremonies written against the Anglican liturgy that was being imposed at that time in Scotland and the reasoning given for kneeling in receiving the Lord's supper by its defenders. He also argued against the practice as no longer indifferent because the practice was a monument of idolatry past and a present badge of idolatry.
GulfCoast Presbyterian
Puritan Board Senior
I don't see any problem with kneeling in PRAYER.
And when he came to the place, he said to them, “Pray that you may not enter into temptation.” And he withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and knelt down and prayed,
(Luke 22:40-41 ESV)
Oh come, let us worship and bow down;
let us kneel before the LORD, our Maker!
(Psalm 95:6 ESV)
And when he had said these things, he knelt down and prayed with them all.
(Acts 20:36 ESV)
Daniel prayed on his knees three times a day every day (Dan 6:10). Stephen prayed on his knees to the Lord before he died as a martyr (Acts 7:60). Peter knelt down before the corpse of Tabitha, prayed for her and she came back to life (Acts 9:40).
For this reason I bow my knees before the Father,
(Ephesians 3:14 ESV)
You can also easily find many references to "standing" and "prostrate" (Matthew 26:39) prayers, as well. Thus, it seems to me there is no issue with kneeling, or other "positons" for prayer, as long as it is sincere worship versus Pharasaic "Look at how religious I am by going the extra mile." This is NOT to say that "anything we think is sincere worship goes." Rather, there seems to be ample warrant in the scripture for kneeling in prayer. I would have to think about kneeling for communion. That is not clear to me and smacks of popism. Need to study that issue.
Just my 2 cents.
And when he came to the place, he said to them, “Pray that you may not enter into temptation.” And he withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and knelt down and prayed,
(Luke 22:40-41 ESV)
Oh come, let us worship and bow down;
let us kneel before the LORD, our Maker!
(Psalm 95:6 ESV)
And when he had said these things, he knelt down and prayed with them all.
(Acts 20:36 ESV)
Daniel prayed on his knees three times a day every day (Dan 6:10). Stephen prayed on his knees to the Lord before he died as a martyr (Acts 7:60). Peter knelt down before the corpse of Tabitha, prayed for her and she came back to life (Acts 9:40).
For this reason I bow my knees before the Father,
(Ephesians 3:14 ESV)
You can also easily find many references to "standing" and "prostrate" (Matthew 26:39) prayers, as well. Thus, it seems to me there is no issue with kneeling, or other "positons" for prayer, as long as it is sincere worship versus Pharasaic "Look at how religious I am by going the extra mile." This is NOT to say that "anything we think is sincere worship goes." Rather, there seems to be ample warrant in the scripture for kneeling in prayer. I would have to think about kneeling for communion. That is not clear to me and smacks of popism. Need to study that issue.
Just my 2 cents.
Chris, if I hear you right, what you are saying is that the Puritans rejected kneeling at the Lord's Supper because of the connotations of Romanism that the practice carried at the time. Given the three hundred years dividing their time from ours, would the practice still carry those connotations for most Protestants? It certainly doesn't for me (I've attended churches where this was the practice).
On the question of binding the conscience: can kneeling be incorporated as part of the ordinary decent and orderly practice of a church? If the minister may ask those present to stand or be seated at certain times, is there a good reason why kneeling could not be incorporated?
A third (and related) question would be whether one's physical posture in prayer can be an aid to reverence. We are, after all, physical beings and (since we are Christians, not Gnostics) we believe that the body matters.
On the question of binding the conscience: can kneeling be incorporated as part of the ordinary decent and orderly practice of a church? If the minister may ask those present to stand or be seated at certain times, is there a good reason why kneeling could not be incorporated?
A third (and related) question would be whether one's physical posture in prayer can be an aid to reverence. We are, after all, physical beings and (since we are Christians, not Gnostics) we believe that the body matters.
Philip,
No, I don't think time diminishes things really here. I think we actually need to be more concerned because after degradation from liberalism and being happy at least we kept the fundamentals, we are left with having incorporated a lot of practices into worship that fly against our Reformation principles. I am not one that thinks superstition and idolatry are less a problem in the modern protestant church. Check out the chapter in Gillespie to at least see the reasoning at that time.
No, I don't think time diminishes things really here. I think we actually need to be more concerned because after degradation from liberalism and being happy at least we kept the fundamentals, we are left with having incorporated a lot of practices into worship that fly against our Reformation principles. I am not one that thinks superstition and idolatry are less a problem in the modern protestant church. Check out the chapter in Gillespie to at least see the reasoning at that time.
JBaldwin
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
We agree. When I said it was what the puritans would have rejected, I should have clarified it as one of the things they rejected. Thanks for making that clarification.
Unoriginalname
Puritan Board Junior
So I am sorry I am lost are we saying kneeling in prayer is wrong? Or are we (and the puritans) just saying kneeling before taking the Lord's supper is wrong?
JBaldwin
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I won't speak for Chris, but I am not saying that it is wrong to kneel in worship, my thought is that kneeling at communion is similar to what the Roman Catholics do, and in their worship, kneeling at that point in their worship is idolatry.
dudley
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I do not kneel at communion or at church at all when in prayer. I have tried to distance myself from anything that reminds me of Romanism and the catholic church. I say amen and agree completely with you Chris when you said “I think the problem in our day is we've thrown over reformation principles and there is not enough reaction against Romanism.”
Before even becoming a Presbyterian I openly renounced Roman Catholicism and her pope and all her false teachings before the session I attended with the elders to be accepted into membership in the Presbyterian church. Thus when I became a Protestant I not only embraced the teachings of the Reformed Faith and the Westminster standards; I renounced completely Roman Catholicism as did the Protestant reformers ,strangely sometimes I feel more Protestant than the people who were born into the fold, cradle Protestants . I sometimes think they do not understand why we are Protestants. We protest the heresy’s of the Romanists and proclaim the truth of the Gospel and the true faith, the ancient faith of the apostles restored to us by the Reformers after 1000 years of papist and Romanist corruption.
Romans922
Puritan Board Professor
I don't know about public worship, but at least in private worship/living these are some of the many different postures described when praying in Scripture:
Standing (Genesis 18, 1 Samuel 1, Matthew 6), Praying with hands spread out or lifted heavenward (Exodus 9, Nehemiah 8, 1 Timothy 2), Bowing the head (Genesis 24, 2 Chronicles 29, Luke 24), the lifting heavenward of the eyes (Psalm 25, John 11, Acts 8) [so we don’t have to close our eyes when we pray], Kneeling (as Paul does here: 2 Chronicles 6, Matthew 17), and Falling Down with the Face upon the Ground (Genesis 17, Deuteronomy 9, Mark 7).
Standing (Genesis 18, 1 Samuel 1, Matthew 6), Praying with hands spread out or lifted heavenward (Exodus 9, Nehemiah 8, 1 Timothy 2), Bowing the head (Genesis 24, 2 Chronicles 29, Luke 24), the lifting heavenward of the eyes (Psalm 25, John 11, Acts 8) [so we don’t have to close our eyes when we pray], Kneeling (as Paul does here: 2 Chronicles 6, Matthew 17), and Falling Down with the Face upon the Ground (Genesis 17, Deuteronomy 9, Mark 7).
dudley
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
If the church is truly Reformed and does not believe in the Popish doctrines of the Mass, I would follow their custom. My Presbyterian church does not kneel for communion or prayer and I also prefer that as I want to be as distant as I can from the Roman catholic rituals.
21st Century Calvinist
Puritan Board Junior
Kneeling is a perfectly acceptable posture to be in for prayer. Regarding public worship the pastor should invite all to kneel, as able. We are after all in corporate worship. I do not know that it is particularly helpful if some folks decide to kneel and others decide to stand or sit. I would love to see Reformed churches arrange the furniture so as to allow space for kneeling. Indeed, kneelers would be good also.
Standing is also a perfectly acceptable posture for prayer. In the congregation where I am a member we stand for most of the prayers in the worship service.
Standing is also a perfectly acceptable posture for prayer. In the congregation where I am a member we stand for most of the prayers in the worship service.
A truly Reformed church would not have kneeling at the Lord's supper. I surely would not do so for reasons hinted or noted above. Gillespie concludes thus:
"Whatsoever gesture in process of time crept into the Lord’s supper otherwise than sitting, of it we may truly say, 'from the beginning it was not so.'”
Again, see his rather technical chapter addressing the arguments of the English and Scottish prelates for kneeling against which he argues it is inescapably idolatrous. (English Popish Ceremonies, book 3, chapter four).
"Whatsoever gesture in process of time crept into the Lord’s supper otherwise than sitting, of it we may truly say, 'from the beginning it was not so.'”
Again, see his rather technical chapter addressing the arguments of the English and Scottish prelates for kneeling against which he argues it is inescapably idolatrous. (English Popish Ceremonies, book 3, chapter four).
dudley
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Amen Chris, I agree with you…“A truly Reformed church would not have kneeling at the Lord's supper” John Calvin condemned the Mass of Roman Catholicism in no uncertain terms. “Of all the idols, he knew none so grotesque as that in which the priest called down Christ into his hands by ‘magical mumblings’ and offered him anew on the sacrificial altar, while the people looked on in ‘stupid amazement.’" 1 Calvin proceeded to formulate his ideas on worship (liturgy) by basing them on the clear warrant of Scripture and appealing to the in- variable custom of the ancient church.. 2 The Reformer concluded, “No assembly of the church should be held without the Word being preached, prayers being offered, the Lord’s Supper administered, and alms given.”
The early Reformed never kneeled because of the repulsion they held for the popish mass and the adoration of a piece of bread in a golden monstrance. It is and was always Idolatry. It is why I do not kneel. I hold a repulsion for all the gross idolatrous practices of the papists. I renounce it and the RCC and those practices as did the early Reformers.
Andres
Puritan Board Doctor
This is the issue for me. I would be concerned about the unity of the body if some are kneeling, some are standing, some are sitting, etc.
dudley
Puritan Board Post-Graduate
I see no purpose in kneeling and like Chris Caldwell I think it implies that Christ the Lord is physically present , that the bread and wine are actually the real body and blood of Christ which we as reformed protestants deny and reject. I think to kneel evening regions where papism and popish rituals are not well known could lead however to the gross superstitions that exist in the roman catholic mass. The Reformed view of the supper is in complete alignment with other texts of Scripture. The fact that in the sacrament we are truly nourished by Christ's body and blood, by faith, not the mouth, bears a close resemblance to the many texts that describe our Lord's relationship to his church, such as those of the vine and branches, the head and body, and Christ's words about abiding in him. Thus we need not kneel and I think we should not. Likewise, it is in accordance with Christ's sending of the Holy Spirit in John 16: "I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer...But when the Spirit of truth, comes...He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you." Therefore, though Christ is not bodily present with us, we nevertheless have access to him and all his benefits because of the work of the Holy Spirit. This is why the author to the Hebrews can describe those who have been baptized and have "tasted of the heavenly gift," as those "who have shared in the Holy Spirit" (Heb. 6:4). It is also why Jesus can refer to himself as "the bread of life" (John 6:48), while also acknowledging that "it is the Spirit who gives life" (John 6:63). It is the Holy Spirit that unites us to Christ and all his benefits.
earl40
Puritan Board Professor
Good point, as a former RC and now rabid protestant I believe if The Lord leads you to kneel do so....and do not tell anybody here you did. Of course at our church if you want to raise your hands during worship you will be allowed to do so, but most there look at you like you are a kook...well we try not to look.
So knell at your own risk.- Status
