Is joining the military recommended or legal in this day and age?

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VerticalLiftEnjoyer

VerticalLiftEnjoyer

Puritan Board Freshman
Forgive me if this is the wrong place to post this, but I want some opinions from everyone (even non-Americans) about if a man should even join the military these days. I read through a bunch of threads on the military here, before I registered, and some of you even made it sound good… but they’re all from 2004-10. Only a few are from after that, and the latest ones are asking about chaplaincy and things like that.

A war with China seems inevitable these days, as well as another insurgent slog in Africa, so l was thinking about joining the military in some aircrew/pilot or medical capacity to hopefully save lives if it happens during my service. My conscience, however, condemns joining the military, saying that this is the destruction of Jerusalem and I ought to flea, or let it happen. (not to say I BELIEVE America to be the new Jerusalem, but that America is ultimately a former Christian nation that has sinned against grace and will get the reward of that)

What do you guys think? Is it even good to join a police force or EMS or homeland security, since you’d be in the service of a sinful city that’s getting what it deserves? This assumes the logic stated is correct, of course.
 
Personal view hat on: Not for the time away from family that it requires. And it seems your conscience is pointing away from it. It would take a lot to turn it towards it. And who knows, it may point away from it once you are at the point of no return.
 
I would only join if there was a real threat of evil that needed to be stopped. I wouldn't join at this time if I was younger and single. Just my opinion.
 
Well, the Texas State Guard is recruiting, but the pay isn't much.


As for the Yankee military - The benefits are great and the training might prove useful in a few years, but I don't think I'd be willing to die for the current crop of senior leaders. The Marine leadership used to have integrity but I think even that is history now.

As for police - there are still some decent sheriffs out there. Big city departments - nope.
 
I definitely think so. It’s a great place to go and figure out what you want to do with your life before you commit years and years to either an apprenticeship program or to college. And the perks are great.
 
I got out of the Navy 24 years ago, and it was a moral cesspool for a Christian to wade through then (I was an unbeliever at the time). It's even worse now.

I vote "no".
 
I know those in the military who won't ever be near the front lines yet, are continually and sometimes severely injured in blue collar work due to lack of regulatory supervision on the bases. Take it for what its worth.
 
To do this question justice and hopefully help the answer stick, I want to make it a bit more novel at the expense of possibly over sharing.

July 19th, 2006. I nearly shipped out as a 97E for the Army. 97E is a job code, or 'military occupational specialty', also called a MOS. I didn’t know what I was going to do with my life but I needed a job and my ex-military step-father thought I could use the discipline. I needed Jesus.

I’d already been to the military entrance processing station ('MEPS') once and sworn in. Later I learned it only sticks once you’ve sworn in the second time. I had high ASVAB test scores - a standardized aptitude test for the military - and so they looked the other way on my flat feet.

They were going to put me in as a Private First Class (E3) and at the very last minute they reclassified that MOS with a Sergeant (E5) prerequisite. Little did I know until years later what I might have been forced to do.

See, 97E’s were HUMINT Collectors. HUMINT stands for Human Intelligence, or intelligence collected from human sources. Effectively interrogators. They go through training, then the Defense Language Institute, etc. They teach these folks to speak the enemy's language so that they can extract information from those individuals who have come forward and/or been taken into custody. I had aspirations of doing my eight year contract and then maybe trying to work for one of the domestic intelligence organizations. Interrogating folks, I thought, would translate well into civilian life.

Friend, let me tell you, God is good, all the time, and it was a blessing that there was that last minute change in my deployment. Instead of shipping out with a different guaranteed job (X-Ray technicians weren’t available), I walked away from the deal. The contract wasn’t valid because the military couldn’t hold up their end of the bargain and there wasn’t another job code that was available that interested me. Instead, I went to work in IT in the private sector. By God’s grace I can support a family of six on one income with the skills I’ve acquired in this industry. This would have been next to impossible if I’d gone the military route, even with the VA loans and other perks.

Who knows if my career will end in IT at the rate we are going, but my point is this: the juice isn’t worth the squeeze when it comes to joining a morally bankrupt military. You’re going to find it difficult to support a family, even with the many discounts and subsidies. You’re also going to be pressured to fall in line on all sorts of issues like gender ideology.

Back in 2006, for all I know I could have been paired up with Marine doorkickers in Iraq, or having folks crabwalk in a prison where prisoners of war are held, such as the one in Guantanamo Bay during that time. I would’ve come back with PTSD or not come back at all. I saw buddies sign up straight out of high school and come back “different,” and not in the fun way.

You and I have no idea what tomorrow is going to bring, whether it’s war or worse. But once you sign the dotted line and swear in twice, you’re government property and are going to have to see it through. I’d avoid indentured servitude in exchange for whatever perks the military is offering these days.

No man can serve two masters.
 
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CHSalzgeber said:
To do this question justice and hopefully help the answer stick, I want to make it a bit more novel at the expense of possibly over sharing.

July 19th, 2006. I nearly shipped out as a 97E for the Army. I didn’t know what I was going to do with my life but I needed a job and my ex-military step-father thought I could use the discipline. I needed Jesus.

I’d already been to MEPS once and sworn in. Later I learned it only sticks once you’ve sworn in the second time. I had high ASVAB scores and so they looked the other way on my flat feet.

They were going to put me in as an E3 and at the very last minute they reclassified that MOS with a E5 prerequisite. Little did I know until years later what I might have been forced to do.

See, 97E’s were HUMINT Collectors. Effectively interrogators. They go through training, then the Defense Language Institute, etc. I had aspirations of doing my eight year contract and then maybe trying to work for one of the domestic intelligence organizations.

Friend, let me tell you, God is good, all the time, and it was a blessing that there was that last minute change in my deployment. Instead of shipping out with a different guaranteed job (X-Ray technicians weren’t available), I went in to IT. By God’s grace I can support a family of six on one income with the skills I’ve acquired in this industry. This would have been next to impossible if I’d gone the military route, even with the VA loans and other perks.

Who knows if my career will end in IT at the rate we are going, but my point is this: the juice isn’t worth the squeeze when it comes to joining a morally bankrupt military. You’re going to find it difficult to support a family, even with the many discounts and subsidies. You’re also going to be pressured to fall in line on all sorts of issues like gender ideology.

Back in 2006, for all I know I could have been paired up with Marine doorkickers in Iraq, or having folks crabwalk in Gitmo. I would’ve come back with PTSD or not come back at all. I saw buddies sign up straight out of high school and come back “different,” and not in the fun way.

You and I have no idea what tomorrow is going to bring, whether it’s war or worse. But once you sign the dotted line and swear in twice, you’re government property and are going to have to see it through. I’d avoid indentured servitude in exchange for whatever perks the military is offering these days.

No man can serve two masters.
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Just a quick comment - civilians probably have no idea what is meant by 97E, MEPS, ASVAB, E3, MOS, E5, HUMINT, and Gitmo.
 
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Tim said:
Just a quick comment - civilians probably have no idea what is meant by 97E, MEPS, ASVAB, E3, MOS, E5, HUMINT, and Gitmo.
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Excellent point, Sir. Let me correct all of that.
 
Polanus1561 said:
Wait, OP, what do you mean by “legal”?
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As in, is it legal before God? I go further into that in the second paragraph, talking about how conscience views it as rebelling against His judgment. I’ve seen some folks here say God Himself is at war woth America, and joining the military to counter that isn’t wise, nor do I think it’d be legal if it’s true

MyCrows said:
Couple months ago in the U.S. they were trying to make it illegal if you didn't have the vaccine, so that depends.

Couple more years it may be illegal if you support Christian teachings.
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The ruling class is going to have to get cool with a lot of stuff really fast if they want to keep their autonomy, lol
 
CHSalzgeber said:
Back in 2006, for all I know I could have been paired up with Marine doorkickers in Iraq, or having folks crabwalk in a prison where prisoners of war are held, such as the one in Guantanamo Bay during that time. I would’ve come back with PTSD or not come back at all. I saw buddies sign up straight out of high school and come back “different,” and not in the fun way.

You and I have no idea what tomorrow is going to bring, whether it’s war or worse. But once you sign the dotted line and swear in twice, you’re government property and are going to have to see it through. I’d avoid indentured servitude in exchange for whatever perks the military is offering these days.

No man can serve two masters.
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Also one of the reasons why conscience doesn’t like this, 4-6yrs active and 8 inactive is too much commitment when I’m not entirely sure what my vocation is aimed at, but at the same time, flight school costs 130k$ while WOFT is 0k$, + WO1 pay and 10 yrs job security. I’m not really in a position where I can take the former unfortunately.

Did you find that people even cared about the UCMJ while you were in? I know they’ll throw the book at the enlisted when they want to, but even in civilian courts the law can easily be on the side of the defendant if they just find it and use it. Also, I know you might not remember it, but did they offer oath exemptions when you went in? I heard one of the officers in charge comment on it before the ceremony on an old video.
 
VerticalLiftEnjoyer said:
Also one of the reasons why conscience doesn’t like this, 4-6yrs active and 8 inactive is too much commitment when I’m not entirely sure what my vocation is aimed at, but at the same time, flight school costs 130k$ while WOFT is 0k$, + WO1 pay and 10 yrs job security. I’m not really in a position where I can take the former unfortunately.

Did you find that people even cared about the UCMJ while you were in? I know they’ll throw the book at the enlisted when they want to, but even in civilian courts the law can easily be on the side of the defendant if they just find it and use it. Also, I know you might not remember it, but did they offer oath exemptions when you went in? I heard one of the officers in charge comment on it before the ceremony on an old video.
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I never shipped out. Apologies if that was unclear. I went into IT in the private sector as a civilian instead. I edited the original post to clarify that point.

As far as the cost of flight school, with respect, you’ve got other options. A lot of these crises are of our own making. We often can't see afar off, and so at times a false dichotomy resembles a true one. We can't find a way forward, we think we've hit a dead end. Sometimes it's true, we really have, and we need to turn around. But other times there's a non-obvious way forward.

Lastly, I think when we think about our future as fallen human creatures, in the flesh we can really fixate on what *I* want. What does the Lord want? He’s not our copilot. We’re not even his copilot. So pray that the Lord would reveal His will for your life. Or, as I tell my children, “put yourself second.” IT wasn’t my first or second choice either. Yet the lines have fallen in pleasant places.

Let Him do what seemeth good to Him and bless His name.
 
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Tim said:
Just a quick comment - civilians probably have no idea what is meant by 97E, MEPS, ASVAB, E3, MOS, E5, HUMINT, and Gitmo.
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97E - The Army's "Military Occupational Specialty" (MOS) Code for the "Human Intelligence Collector". Basically they interrogate prisoners.

MEPS - "Military Entrance Processing Center". This is a central location that all military recruits get funneled into for their initial medical screening, oath of enlistment, and final "pre-boarding" stuff before shipping off to Boot Camp / Basic Training.

ASVAB - "Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery" - The test that all new prospective military recruits take to see what kinds of job training they qualify for. High score good. Low score means you'll be carrying a rifle, chipping paint, or tying knots and pulling anchors.

E3 / E5 - "Enlisted Paygrade X" - Technically, this is basic tier of your rank's pay structure. These go from E-1 to E-9 for enlisted personnel. W-1 to W-5 for Warrant Officers, and from O-1 to O-10 for commissioned officers.
(Note, in the US Navy and Coast Guard, only officers have "rank". Enlisted personnel have "rate". For everyone in the Army, Marines, Air Force, and Space Force it's just "rank" whether you are an officer or an enlisted man).
E-3 corresponds to the following ranks / rates:
- Private First Class (Army), Lance Corporal (Marines)
- Seaman (or Airman, or Fireman, or Hospitalman, or Constructionman in the Navy or Coast Guard)
- Airman First Class (Air Force)
- Specialist 3 (Space Force).
E-5 corresponds to the following ranks / rates:
- Sergeant (Army, Marines, Space Force)
- Petty Officer Second Class (Navy and Coast Guard)
- Staff Sergeant (Air Force).

MOS - "Military Occupational Specialty" - The Army's term for your basic job. Examples are: 11B - Infantryman, 09L - Interpreter / Translator, 31B - Military Police

HUMINT - "Human Intelligence" - Information about the enemy extracted from enemy combatants through interrogation and torture.

Gitmo - Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Site of a military detention facility at Guantanamo Bay Naval Base in Cuba. This place became infamous due to the widespread and systematic mistreatment of prisoners from the 2001 War in Afghanistan and the 2003 War in Iraq.

Hope this helps!
 
Since nearly all the comments here about the military are negative, I think I need to give a different view, particularly because those currently on active duty may hesitate to get involved in a discussion that could get them into trouble if the wrong people see it.

I live outside Fort Leonard Wood, home of the US Army's engineer, chemical and MP schools, as well as being one of the basic training posts for the Army. Older Army vets will remember that FLW was once mostly a basic training post; that changed decades ago, and our community looks more like an engineering school plopped into the middle of the Missouri Ozarks than like "Fort Lost in the Woods," which is what we used to be called when there wasn't much here except basic training. From 2000 to 2010, the US census reported that we were the third-fastest growing "micropolitan" area in the United States (the fastest was "The Villages" in Florida), and while the end of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan led to some downsizing of the military, we had fewer cuts than most Army installations and our civilian community continues to grow. We're now the largest third-class (i.e., rural) county in Missouri.

Are there problems with the Army (and the Navy, and Marines, and Air Force)? Absolutely. Some of the comments here are spot on.

However, let's be sure to compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges. Many of those same problems exist in the civilian world, especially the corporate world. I've spent 38 years in the news media and I can say with certainty that my friends working for large national newspaper companies have to deal with a level of political correctness ten times worse than anything most soldiers will ever see. Even in supposedly family-friendly businesses, I personally know people who went to work at Disney back when it was viewed as being a family-friendly corporation. That didn't work out very well for them, and one of those people resigned from a senior management position not long before the company's current "woke" problems came to public attention, at least in part because she couldn't defend her company's values anymore in public.

From a Christian perspective, the Army is not going to compare very well to joining a small family-owned business whose owners are deeply committed Christians and run their business in accord with their faith. But most people don't have the option of starting their own businesses, or working for their father's business, or working for a business owned by a friend. Most people are going to have to go to work for a secular company owned by non-Christians who don't share their values, and may actively oppose them.

Several comments here pointed out the moral problems of the military. Not disagreeing -- I've covered several horrible court martial cases involving sexual misconduct and I see plenty of moral problems of military personnel that end up as civilian court cases because the bad behavior happened off post. However, I saw the behavior of young people in college back in the 1980s and the moral cesspool was as bad if not worse than the stuff I see here. I run the local newspaper, I read the police blotters and the court dockets, and I see the very worst of what young soldiers can do when they're stupid (and often both stupid and drunk). Trust me - college towns are far worse, and what I see in the court records is actually an overrepresentation of the problems because our prosecutor is a former active-duty JAG officer now in the National Guard, many of our local police are prior service military, and they take a **VERY** dim view of soldiers being stupid. Bad behavior that would probably get a warning from police in a college town will get a ticket or a ride to jail in our county for a soldier. Local police know that serving in the military is a privilege, and the Army doesn't need problem people to be given slaps on the wrist until their behavior gets bad enough to give the Army a black eye.

The Army is not a Christian institution. It doesn't claim to be. However, the Army's recruitment pool is largely rural and that often means from some of the most conservative parts of the United States, and I think a good case can be made that the Army is better than most (maybe nearly all) of America's major corporations when it comes to toleration or even support for traditional conservative values.

But there are real issues that need to be faced.

First and foremost is the issue of following orders. My friend working for Disney had the option of quitting and took that option when she couldn't defend Disney anymore. If someone has a fundamental problem with the United States government and can't take the oath, that person shouldn't join the military. We don't live in Nazi Germany or Stalin's Soviet Union or Mao's China, and there are plenty of appeal routes for egregious situations of commanders or NCOs who try to order a Christian to do things that may or may not be legal orders, but which we consider immoral -- and I would point out that the Roman centurion commended by Jesus Himself served in a Roman army that was far more problematic than anything a Christian will face in the US Army. However, I respect people's consciences, and since the American military draws its recruits from American society, as the moral values of our society get worse and worse, there will be more and more problems faced by Christians working in any agency of government, including the military.

Second is the question of being willing to kill and to die for one's country, which is not the same as being willing to die as a martyr for Christ. Are you sure you're saved? Are you willing to kill, not in self-defense (which is a different issue), but in combat following orders? If not, don't enlist. Have you had a serious heart-to-heart talk with your mother and father, or your wife and children if you have any, about what it will mean for them to get a folded flag at a military funeral after your death? You'd better be sure your wife is on board if you want to enlist.

That brings up the third issue: family disruption and deployment. My father served back in the 1950s and 1960s, and so did my wife's father (a Korean War combat medic) but today's military personnel can expect deployments on a regular basis. Even when not deployed, if they are on active duty, they can expect Uncle Sam will move them around every two to three years. Some families think that's a great adventure to see lots of new places, and "seeing the world" with overseas assignments taking the family to Germany, Britain, Asia, or other places is a very real possibility. But uprooting a family on a regular basis has very real consequences. For Christians who deeply value extended families and long-term connections to hometowns and the support structure that a lot of small American towns provide, there are real issues with military life, and that's a particular problem for Reformed people because of our view of the covenantal importance not only of the nuclear family but the extended family and church community.

Directly related to that is my fourth and final point: Baptists and charismatics and broad evangelicals will often find a faith community in the military that is very supportive. That is far more difficult for Reformed people. Yes, there are a number of military installations with strong Reformed churches near or within reasonable driving distance, but that's not true everywhere, and I happen to live outside one of the Army installations that is known as a "black hole" for the Reformed faith. I drive over an hour to church, and while there is a Reformed Baptist church in our county that is a member of the Founders Conference and two other pastors of independent nondenominational churches are Reformed, none of those churches will accept people into membership without rebaptism. The local PCA is one I attended for a number of years but never joined and there are reasons for that, despite many efforts by the former pastor and by some presbytery officials to get me to join. Few people on the Puritan Board would be willing to join that PCA.

I think the bottom line is that for a young person who is sound in his faith, the military can be a good option. It's not for everyone. I would strongly oppose a weak believer joining the military, and I'm well aware that a young person who is a believer but not doctrinally knowledgeable is likely to leave the Reformed faith if he makes the military his career.

I would say almost the exact same things about a young person going away from home to college. Secular colleges and universities, and far too many lukewarm supposedly Christian colleges can be tremendously damaging to the spiritual life of young people.
 
Tim said:
civilians probably have no idea what is meant by 97E, MEPS, ASVAB, E3, MOS, E5, HUMINT, and Gitmo.
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Maybe on the rest of them, but I don't have much sympathy for those who don't know about the Navy's coaling base in Cuba.
 
I spent 12 years in the Infantry, as well as other combatant positions for the US Government since. The military is in desperate need of good, Christian men, but no moreso than any other profession. My time was incredibly formative and included both the best and the worst times of my life. There are many wonderful church options near all but the most remote bases and while one may not be able to find the "perfect" church for him, he may be blessed beyond measure by a church whose tradition or practice may not be according to his preferences.

While it is not exactly equivalent to a volunteer enlistment, we know that many Christians have served in the militaries of exceedingly wicked and tyrannical nations (Rome, Nazi Germany, etc.). It may be difficult, but one can still serve honorably even if the nation he serves is wicked.

I encourage nearly every capable young man to do even just one enlistment. This is from someone who actually lived that life for a fairly decent amount of time, so it isn't just theoretical musing. Take that for what it's worth.

P.S. It is an extremely small percentage of the military that engages in actual combat, so unless you specifically join one of those positions, the chances of you having to face the prospect of killing another human are rather minuscule.
 
MountainPilgrim said:
I spent 12 years in the Infantry, as well as other combatant positions for the US Government since. The military is in desperate need of good, Christian men, but no moreso than any other profession. My time was incredibly formative and included both the best and the worst times of my life. There are many wonderful church options near all but the most remote bases and while one may not be able to find the "perfect" church for him, he may be blessed beyond measure by a church whose tradition or practice may not be according to his preferences.

While it is not exactly equivalent to a volunteer enlistment, we know that many Christians have served in the militaries of exceedingly wicked and tyrannical nations (Rome, Nazi Germany, etc.). It may be difficult, but one can still serve honorably even if the nation he serves is wicked.

I encourage nearly every capable young man to do even just one enlistment. This is from someone who actually lived that life for a fairly decent amount of time, so it isn't just theoretical musing. Take that for what it's worth.

P.S. It is an extremely small percentage of the military that engages in actual combat, so unless you specifically join one of those positions, the chances of you having to face the prospect of killing another human are rather minuscule.
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Thank you for your service, Sir.
 
Agreed, @MountainPilgrim and this is a REALLY important qualifier: "It is an extremely small percentage of the military that engages in actual combat, so unless you specifically join one of those positions, the chances of you having to face the prospect of killing another human are rather minuscule."

We have the tremendous luxury in America that American dominance of world geopolitics means most people wearing the uniform will never need to shoot anyone and have little risk of death from combat. Even so, from a Christian perspective, it is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL that young people think through those issues before enlisting. The standards for making lawful oaths and vows are deadly serious, according to God's Word. Once people have raised their hands and taken the oath, the time for asking questions about the rightness of following orders and of combat has passed.

You are completely correct, @MountainPilgrim about the division between the relatively small number of combat soldiers and the huge amount of support personnel in the United States military, including support personnel who wear the uniform, DOD civilians, and civilian contractors. That is something most American civilians do not understand. To avoid any misunderstandings, I've never worn the uniform -- I worked as a civilian in Army Public Affairs following 9/11 but I am very much aware that I will never understand what those wearing the uniform faced and don't claim to understand it. Furthermore, the military changes with time, and what I saw in the time following 9/11 and what I see in today's military are light years of distance away from what my father saw in the 1950s and 1960s, with the biggest differences being a huge multiplication of support personnel and the end of a draft-era military. When serving in uniform is a privilege, not a requirement, it changes many things.

What we see in the US military is also very different from the militaries of other nations, including some of our allies. The US military is very different from South Korea, where with rare exceptions every able-bodied male citizen is drafted. Koreans are well aware that with a nuclear-armed enemy an hour north of the capital city, and an enemy that even without nuclear weapons could kill millions of people in Seoul with traditional artillery, there will be no such thing as a "rear echelon" in a shooting war. That's a country where, within living memory of people still holding political office, the North Koreans pushed the combined US-ROK military all the way south to the Pusan Perimeter and came very close to giving the United States a Dunkirk, pushing American troops into the sea. The subsequent Chinese assault wasn't quite as successful, but it did push the combined US and South Korean forces out of North Korea and led to the overrunning of Seoul a second time by the Communists before we drove the Communists back to a stalemate along what is now the North-South border.

For whatever it may be worth, my mother-in-law's village was overrun by the Communists. Her brother was dragged north as an "enemy of the people" and has not been seen since the end of the war. This isn't ancient history or stuff in old books. She lives in our home, and so did my father-in-law, a ROK Army SFC, until he died a few years ago. He had a great deal to say about his views of what the Communists did to his family and his property during the Korean War, and while my mother-in-law is nicer, she knows there is almost no chance she will ever meet her brother again, or even find out what happened to him. Her brother never knew his wife was pregnant when the North Koreans dragged him away, and his child grew up never knowing her father.

These aren't rare or unusual stories. They are normal for Korean families.

We haven't had war on American soil for a century and a half, and that kind of experience within living memory of Koreans leads to a very different approach to training troops.

And that's the Korean draftees. When it comes to the "hooah" units of the South Koreans such as the ROK "White Tigers" (the South Korean Special Forces, in which my brother-in-law served) -- well, let's just say I'm glad they're on our side.

Those of us who have not worn the uniform, and who haven't gone through what my Korean family suffered, need to be grateful that our military, and the threat it poses to those who don't like us, keeps some very bad people very far away from us. As conservatives and as Christians, it's fine to criticize our "woke" politicians and what they are doing to our military. But we'd be in a far worse place if we didn't have our military. The experience of South Korea, which by a combination of American neglect and deliberate design had been prevented from having the tools it needed to defend itself against the rapid buildup of the North Koreans in the later 1940s, shows what happens when a country doesn't have a strong military.

Weakness invites attack. Strength deters it.

Christians need to remember that the power of the sword, as taught in Romans 13, is very real and very important.
 
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darrellmaurina said:
Once people have raised their hands and taken the oath, the time for asking questions about the rightness of following orders and of combat has passed.
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??
A lawful oath made in good conscience to obey a superior does not outweigh the obligation to obey God, ever. If you're given an immoral order, you must maintain fidelity to the Lord Jesus Christ period. You disobey the immoral order and take the repercussions gladly.
 
MyCrows said:
??
A lawful oath made in good conscience to obey a superior does not outweigh the obligation to obey God, ever. If you're given an immoral order, you must maintain fidelity to the Lord Jesus Christ period. You disobey the immoral order and take the repercussions gladly.
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I need to clarify -- of course some orders are illegal. Our American military justice system recognizes that via UCMJ. There are American soldiers who faced dire consequences in a court-martial for giving illegal orders. I have covered courts-martial and some of the people on whom I reported will still be in military prison when I'm retired and may still be there after I'm dead.

My full comment was this: "Second is the question of being willing to kill and to die for one's country, which is not the same as being willing to die as a martyr for Christ. Are you sure you're saved? Are you willing to kill, not in self-defense (which is a different issue), but in combat following orders? If not, don't enlist. Have you had a serious heart-to-heart talk with your mother and father, or your wife and children if you have any, about what it will mean for them to get a folded flag at a military funeral after your death? You'd better be sure your wife is on board if you want to enlist."

I thought about ending there. If this were a military discussion board I probably would stop there. But this is a Reformed board where we're used to discussing doctrine in detail, so since it looks like I wasn't clear, let me try to unpack this.

There are Christians who are not pacifists and who are willing to kill in self-defense but who have doubts about other uses of the "sword" of the civil magistrate in Romans 13. If someone is not absolutely convinced that killing enemies in combat is legitimate -- and that is a different question from self-defense -- that person does not belong in the military. (Yes, I know the definition of "enemy" is key. I'm not talking about details here, only the core principle that Christians can legitimately kill people in combat who don't pose a personal threat to them.) Also, while there are plenty of Christians (I would hope all of us) who are willing to die for Christ, dying for one's country is different. If people are not willing to die for their country, they should not voluntarily enlist. I'd go a step farther and say that if a young person came to me and was asking about enlisting, I'd have a serious heart-to-heart conversation about his or her conversion and say that's the first question to answer before asking any questions to a recruiter. While seeing actual combat is quite unlikely in most support roles in the modern military, convoys do get blown up by IEDs, transport helicopters do get shot down, and a young person who expects to live forever and isn't thinking about eternal questions needs to think VERY hard about where he or she will go after death.

Now on the issue of obeying orders, let me unpack that as well. Military orders are different from civilian orders. Individual consciences differ on how much people can cooperate with non-Christians who have legitimate authority over us through employment, schooling, etc., but when it comes to the military, people need to get clear in their heads what a legitimate order means BEFORE they take the oath of enlistment. In the civilian world, long ago, I had an editor tell me to take my "Choose Life" bumper sticker off my car. I objected, and told him that if he claimed to be "pro-choice," he should respect my choice to "choose life," or he wasn't pro-choice at all. He didn't like my answer, but he knew I was logically right and backed down. However, as my employer in a private company, he had every legal right to tell me to take the bumper sticker off my car if I wanted to keep working for his company. It doesn't work that way in the military because a soldier who doesn't like an order can't just quit.

Beyond the black-and-white crystal clear areas about lawful and unlawful orders, there are orders that may violate our own religious beliefs but are legal according to American law. Sabbath observance in the military is an obvious example -- commanders, not individual soldiers, bear the responsibility for issuing orders to do things on Sunday for which there is no legitimate military or other necessity, and a few generations ago that was understood in the American military, but no longer is. Read J. Gresham Machen and his experience during World War I, as a YMCA staff member close to the front in France, helping organize sports on Sunday -- not something he would choose to do, but he knew the responsibility for the decision was "above his pay grade" so he did what he was told. (Back then, chaplains didn't have the level of access to troops they have today, and Machen felt he'd be more useful in the YMCA than as a uniformed chaplain.)

There are a ton of gray areas and I'm painfully aware of that.

However, when it comes to the core duties of a soldier, to be willing to kill and to be willing to die, that decision gets made when the oath is taken. If you're not willing to do that, don't enlist.

To repeat what I said, "Once people have raised their hands and taken the oath, the time for asking questions about the rightness of following orders and of combat has passed."
 
VerticalLiftEnjoyer said:
Forgive me if this is the wrong place to post this, but I want some opinions from everyone (even non-Americans) about if a man should even join the military these days. I read through a bunch of threads on the military here, before I registered, and some of you even made it sound good… but they’re all from 2004-10. Only a few are from after that, and the latest ones are asking about chaplaincy and things like that.

A war with China seems inevitable these days, as well as another insurgent slog in Africa, so l was thinking about joining the military in some aircrew/pilot or medical capacity to hopefully save lives if it happens during my service. My conscience, however, condemns joining the military, saying that this is the destruction of Jerusalem and I ought to flea, or let it happen. (not to say I BELIEVE America to be the new Jerusalem, but that America is ultimately a former Christian nation that has sinned against grace and will get the reward of that)

What do you guys think? Is it even good to join a police force or EMS or homeland security, since you’d be in the service of a sinful city that’s getting what it deserves? This assumes the logic stated is correct, of course.
Click to expand...
In your case, I might look into joining the Air Guard in a state (e.g. Florida) where the governor would refuse any federal attempt to turn the military against Christians. There is certainly a lot of wickedness today, but the amount of it varies dramatically state-to-state.
 
The current leadership in the military is gay, but I don't think it will always be that way. I still think military is a good option, only be aware of the ideology of those in charge.
 
I randomly just thought of an important question that we should probably ask ourselves. If we are not in wartime, would it make more sense to spend our time in the military, or to spend much of our free time serving God's Church? Maybe somebody still can serve their Church faithfully, even when in the military, I really don't know the answer to that. But I'm just thinking from a priority and eternal standpoint.
 
This thread is of particular importance to me because my youngest is considering the Coast Guard.

Since I spent a lot of time on the water growing up and two years working in the same building as the CG in Alaska, I have a positive view of this branch. It also seems they give a greater amount of room for personal judgment and opportunity to assess and complete work than other parts of the military, which would suit my very competent son well.

If anyone here has any insight into this branch in the last few years, I'd truly appreciate hearing your insights.
 
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