Is God a Part of Non-Regulative Worship?

[Ryan&Amber2013]

Do you think the Lord is pleased with non regulative worship? Is He directing it? Is He in the midst of it? In the OT it seemed like the Lord's anger burned against those who stepped outside of the prescription. I wonder if God is still the same way today, though we don't see His anger and He allows it. I wonder if He is angered when we try new methods of corporate worship, even if our hearts are sincere.

 

[Pergamum]

Depends on what the "new method" is. Errors vary, and no church is totally pure, though it be a true church.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

I think about that also. Psalm 22 is the Psalm portraying Christ's death, resurrection, and ascension,and says in verse 22, "I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee." Verse 22 is quoted in Hebrews 2:12, the last phrase being quoted as "in the midst of the church will I sing praise to thee." So Christ's will is to stand among the congregation, declaring the Father's name and singing his praise. Both of those things, coming "out of his mouth" (through the words of the people) must surely be the word of God! Did Christ ever say anything that wasn't his own (and the Father's) word, or will he? It is what mainly convinced me of EP. What does that leave Christ to sing as we sing our own compositions? Can you imagine- him in our midst and us singing something we wrote, rather than singing his words with him. It makes me wonder. I can't see how it's pleasing to him, although we do it with well-meaning motives. But it makes me tremble to think of it. Calvin believed that the reformation of the worship of the church must have priority, and he acted upon it.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Do you think the Lord is pleased with non regulative worship? Is He directing it? Is He in the midst of it? In the OT it seemed like the Lord's anger burned against those who stepped outside of the prescription. I wonder if God is still the same way today, though we don't see His anger and He allows it. I wonder if He is angered when we try new methods of corporate worship, even if our hearts are sincere.

There is no curve here....it is either one or the other. If God is against 'strange fire', then He is NOT involved in that which breaks the RPW. Having said that, simply put, if we know that God IS present in worship that doesn't break the RPW, it should be all our goals to be involved only in that type of worship. If it is possible in singing uninspired song to be a break or even a possible break, we should not do it. As well, until that time the person comes to a strong conclusion it is not a break, he should refrain from singing anything other than what he knows to be regulated, for prudence sake alone.

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

You guys are making some really good points. A question came to mind though that maybe you can help me with: what about the reading of the confession, preaching, and prayer? If these aren't inspired wouldn't singing be grouped in there as well? I only ask sincerely so I can better work out what I believe. Thanks!

 

[Pergamum]

Do you think the Lord is pleased with non regulative worship? Is He directing it? Is He in the midst of it? In the OT it seemed like the Lord's anger burned against those who stepped outside of the prescription. I wonder if God is still the same way today, though we don't see His anger and He allows it. I wonder if He is angered when we try new methods of corporate worship, even if our hearts are sincere.

There is no curve here....it is either one or the other. If God is against 'strange fire', then He is NOT involved in that which breaks the RPW. Having said that, simply put, if we know that God IS present in worship that doesn't break the RPW, it should be all our goals to be involved only in that type of worship. If it is possible in singing uninspired song to be a break or even a possible break, we should not do it. As well, until that time the person comes to a strong conclusion it is not a break, he should refrain from singing anything other than what he knows to be regulated, for prudence sake alone.

Scott:


Chapter XXV of the Confession says:

V. The purest Churches under heaven are subject both to mixture and error;[10] and some have so degenerated, as to become no Churches of Christ, but synagogues of Satan...

Your view would turn all erring churches into Synagogues of Satan. Yet the Confession speaks of many true churches with error and no church being pure.

It is not either 100% pure or else Synagogue of Satan.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Do you think the Lord is pleased with non regulative worship? Is He directing it? Is He in the midst of it? In the OT it seemed like the Lord's anger burned against those who stepped outside of the prescription. I wonder if God is still the same way today, though we don't see His anger and He allows it. I wonder if He is angered when we try new methods of corporate worship, even if our hearts are sincere.

There is no curve here....it is either one or the other. If God is against 'strange fire', then He is NOT involved in that which breaks the RPW. Having said that, simply put, if we know that God IS present in worship that doesn't break the RPW, it should be all our goals to be involved only in that type of worship. If it is possible in singing uninspired song to be a break or even a possible break, we should not do it. As well, until that time the person comes to a strong conclusion it is not a break, he should refrain from singing anything other than what he knows to be regulated, for prudence sake alone.

Scott:


Chapter XXV of the Confession says:

V. The purest Churches under heaven are subject both to mixture and error;[10] and some have so degenerated, as to become no Churches of Christ, but synagogues of Satan...

Your view would turn all erring churches into Synagogues of Satan. Yet the Confession speaks of many true churches with error and no church being pure.

It is not either 100% pure or else Synagogue of Satan.

Trevor,
Not exactly. I never said that singing uninspired song is the whole essence of worship. For example, the Preaching of the word and sacraments are part of worship and most churches don't blow that.

As well, the 3 marks that make a church a church are:
1) The true preaching of the word/Gospel
2) Discipline
3) Sacraments

Nothing there about what type of song we sing....so a church can be erring in their song and break the RPW, yet still possess the 3 marks that make them a true church of God. When the Confession makes mention, they refer to those gatherings that cease to possess one of these 3 marks any longer-they have 'degenerated' from those 3 marks..and cease being a true church, but a synagogue of satan, now.

Think of it this way; it is a benefit (benne esse) of the church to sing Psalms and not of it's essence (esse).

If God is part of the worship time and we break the RPW in the process, it would be sin; Can God have any part of sin? Again, this is not to say He removes a lampstand for singing uninspired song, just that He is displeased with that portion of the worship service.

 

[Pergamum]

Do you think the Lord is pleased with non regulative worship? Is He directing it? Is He in the midst of it? In the OT it seemed like the Lord's anger burned against those who stepped outside of the prescription. I wonder if God is still the same way today, though we don't see His anger and He allows it. I wonder if He is angered when we try new methods of corporate worship, even if our hearts are sincere.

There is no curve here....it is either one or the other. If God is against 'strange fire', then He is NOT involved in that which breaks the RPW. Having said that, simply put, if we know that God IS present in worship that doesn't break the RPW, it should be all our goals to be involved only in that type of worship. If it is possible in singing uninspired song to be a break or even a possible break, we should not do it. As well, until that time the person comes to a strong conclusion it is not a break, he should refrain from singing anything other than what he knows to be regulated, for prudence sake alone.

Scott:


Chapter XXV of the Confession says:

V. The purest Churches under heaven are subject both to mixture and error;[10] and some have so degenerated, as to become no Churches of Christ, but synagogues of Satan...

Your view would turn all erring churches into Synagogues of Satan. Yet the Confession speaks of many true churches with error and no church being pure.

It is not either 100% pure or else Synagogue of Satan.

Trevor,
Not exactly. I never said that singing uninspired song is the whole essence of worship. For example, the Preaching of the word and sacraments are part of worship and most churches don't blow that.

As well, the 3 marks that make a church a church are:
1) The true preaching of the word/Gospel
2) Discipline
3) Sacraments

Nothing there about what type of song we sing....so a church can be erring in their song and break the RPW, yet still possess the 3 marks that make them a true church of God. When the Confession makes mention, they refer to those gatherings that cease to possess one of these 3 marks any longer-they have 'degenerated' from those 3 marks..and cease being a true church, but a synagogue of satan, now.

Think of it this way; it is a benefit (benne esse) of the church to sing Psalms and not of it's essence (esse).

If God is part of the worship time and we break the RPW in the process, it would be sin; Can God have any part of sin? Again, this is not to say He removes a lampstand for singing uninspired song, just that He is displeased with that portion of the worship service.

Ah...good to know. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Jeri Tanner]

You guys are making some really good points. A question came to mind though that maybe you can help me with: what about the reading of the confession, preaching, and prayer? If these aren't inspired wouldn't singing be grouped in there as well? I only ask sincerely so I can better work out what I believe. Thanks!

I'm not sure how to answer about the confession, but of the other activities you named, the song is the only one that is "put into the mouths of the people" (Deuteronomy 31:19). That's different from prayer offered by another person, and from preaching- both can be listened to and can be weighed; we don't have to say "amen" at the end of an unbiblical prayer, or even one we're not sure of. But we can always say the amen when we sing a Psalm.

 

[Andrew P.C.]

In the OT it seemed like the Lord's anger burned against those who stepped outside of the prescription. I wonder if God is still the same way today

Is the Lord Immutable?

Why would He change His mind on worship? (Note: we are not talking about ceremonial laws. Rather the fact that God regulates His worship the same as He always has.)

If we do not find warrant for it in scripture, then it is forbidden.

 

[Cymro]

If the regulative principle for worship is binding in the NT as it was in the old, (for Moses was commanded to do all things after the pattern showed him in the mount),then contravention would be displeasing to God who has instituted the means He requires. Would not its contravention be a breaking of the second commandment, which falls under idololaterous worship? Not that brethren who do not hold to RPW are idol worshippers, but their worship in one area would be unsanctified . Because of the union that pertains between Christ and His body, it is unthinkable that he leads the worship in the great congregation, by singing hymns that are error strewn, and choruses that are Christianised mantras. Such was my position formerly, so I write not in judgment on others.

 

[Ryan&Amber2013]

So do you think the amount of worship the Lord is pleased with and a part of on a Lord's Day basis might be very minimal worldwide?

 

[Scott Bushey]

So do you think the amount of worship the Lord is pleased with and a part of on a Lord's Day basis might be very minimal worldwide?

This is a difficult question and I would hate to be the one who levels a charge against the bride. When we consider the obvious that has already been said, it surely begs the question.

A few things that come to mind is when we consider the churches of Revelation, one can see that all but one had issues. The WCF tells us that the church is 'less than pure' in some instances. It being that these churches still had lamp stand and that they are still considered the bride of Christ, we have to believe that the Lord walks within these ranks. Even though it has it's faults, Christ dwells among these settings.

As mentioned, worship is more than just song. The Lord may be displeased; but he is long suffering towards the elect and bears with these flaws. We do not see any deaths like we see in the OT for illicit worship. This is not to say the Lord won't strike someone dead for an assault on the RPW and we surely should not be presumptuous as to think He won't. In that, all of our worship should be approached prudently with a trembling fear. Most don't get that and you get what we have in most churches.

So, in answering your question, I believe God is pleased in a general sense. Most of these churches you refer to have the marks that make a church a church, hence, the Lord has not divorced Himself from these assemblies even though they may be deficient in their practice.

 

[Alex the Less]

worship center center or learning center?

So do you think the amount of worship the Lord is pleased with and a part of on a Lord's Day basis might be very minimal worldwide?

As Christians, the purpose of meeting is primarily for mutual encouragement (Heb. 10.25, Rom. 1.12). Secondly our meetings are for discipleship (therefore a 'learning center' 1Tim. 4.13).

We are under the New Covenant where worship is not centralized in a place. The Lord's intention and actuality is that He now indwells us and we bear fruit and He is glorified. This new reality governs all we say, think, and do. The new life cannot and should not be considered as weekly, localized service. This might not be what you are saying, but it sounds like it from my ears. What I am trying to say is: "worship" is not so 'centralized'.

 

[Scott Bushey]

As Christians, the purpose of meeting is primarily for mutual encouragement (Heb. 10.25, Rom. 1.12). Secondly our meetings are for discipleship (therefore a 'learning center' 1Tim. 4.13).

Say What???

WCF ch 21


I. The light of nature showeth that there is a God, who hath lordship and sovereignty over all; is good, and doeth good unto all; and is therefore to be feared, loved, praised, called upon, trusted in, and served with all the hearth, and with all the soul, and with all the might. But the acceptable way of worshipping the true God is instituted by himself, and so limited by his own revealed will, that he may not be worshipped according to the imaginations and devices of men, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representation or any other way not prescribed in the holy Scripture.
II. Religious worship is to be given to God, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; and to him alone: not to angels, saints, or any other creature: and since the Fall, not without a Mediator; nor in the mediation of any other but of Christ alone.

The reason believers gather is because we are commanded to; some of the fruits of said meetings are some of the things you mention, but they are secondary.

We are under the New Covenant where worship is not centralized in a place.

I have no idea what you are trying to get across here....we meet locally in a building.

The Lord's intention and actuality is that He now indwells us and we bear fruit and He is glorified. This new reality governs all we say, think, and do. The new life cannot and should not be considered as weekly, localized service. This might not be what you are saying, but it sounds like it from my ears. What I am trying to say is: "worship" is not so 'centralized'.

Ch 25 of the wcf:

I. The catholic or universal Church, which is invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ the head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fullness of Him that filleth all in all.
II. The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the Gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion; and of their children: and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, the house and family of God, out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation.

III. Unto this catholic and visible Church, Christ hath given the ministry, oracles, and ordinances of God, for the gathering and perfecting of the saints, in this life, to the end of the world; and doth by his own presence and Spirit, according to his promise, make them effectual thereunto.

 

[Jack K]

This morning I came across some comments from Thomas Manton that made me think of this thread. Manton, preaching on Matthew 4:10 ("Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve"), has this to say about worshipping God in ways he has not commanded.

God will accept only what he commanded, and without a promise it will be unprofitable to us: and it is a superstitious innovation of our own to devise any religious worship for which there is no example at all whereby it may be recommended to us. ... No action may be profitable to us which God hath not promised to accept. (Works, Vol. 1. "Sermons on Christ's Temptation," Sermon 6, IV, 3)

Now, Manton is not addressing the particular question asked in OP, and I don't know how he might answer it if it were posed to him. But I think there is pastoral wisdom in how he addresses the larger issue. He's firm on the importance of proper worship. But rather than speak of God's anger or of Christ no longer worshipping with us, he speaks of such worship being "unprofitable."

This seems to me to be a wise way to think about it. Else we quickly end up in a place where we imagine Christ abandoning us at the slightest error because, being error-free, he just can't stand alongside us error-prone people. Such a way of thinking doesn't fit the overall tenor of the gospel, which has Christ standing at our side in the midst of our sin, helping us and teaching us, rather than leaving us whenever we go astray. Our error/sin is unprofitable for us, but where do we ever see it pushing Christ away from those who are his people?

Of course, the matter of defiantly ignoring God's commands in favor of our own preferences is another thing entirely. But the OP addressed a situation where our hearts are sincere.

 

[KGP]

Jack likes the term 'unprofitable' and so do I. In taking us as his people, God would also have us learn of himself and his ways and his works; those who seek to worship Him in the way he has revealed find themselves growing in the knowledge of God and being thus transformed. To miss the benefit of such worship profits us nothing. If we are content to profit nothing then there is danger indeed.


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