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I have never seen an effective Gospel presentation that explicitly tries to prove that Christ did not die for everyone.
I have. Jn 6.....Jn8 Jn10....Jn12
When presenting the Gospel it is only important for the sinner to believe that Christ died for him.
The Apostles never told anyone that Jesus died for them in particular.They said Jesus died for sinners
Defined that way, I would find that most disagreeable.
Your usage of neo-evangelical/broad evangelical language is disconcerting.
Ezekiel 18:31-32 "Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,' says the Lord GOD. 'Therefore turn and live!” (yes, this is to Israel, but it included the decretally non-elect)
Isaiah 55:1-3 “Ho! Everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money, come, buy and eat, yes, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Why do you spend money for what is not bread, and your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good, and let your soul delight itself in abundance. Incline your ear, and come to Me. Hear, and your soul shall live; And I will make an everlasting covenant with you— the sure mercies of David."
Isaiah 1:18-20 "Come now, and let us reason together,” says the LORD, 'Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land; But if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword”; For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.'"
Matthew 23:37-39 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’”
Matthew 11:20-33 "Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: 'Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.'
At that time Jesus answered and said, 'I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.'”
Acts 3:18-26 "But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said to the fathers, 'The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people. 'Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”
2 Corinthians 5:18-21 "Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
Romans 2:2-11 "But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who 'will render to each one according to his deeds': eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God."
Our oral presentation of the Gospel totally loses its effect on sinners, if we are not faithfully living the Gospel at the same time.
14Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
15For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
17For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
Bingo.I suspect that when we challenge Mr. Spurgeon's assertion that Calvinism is the gospel, we are applying the narrowest definition of gospel - a definition more narrow than was his intent. While it is true that 1Cor 15 provides a concise definition of THE gospel. The term is also used more broadly in the Scriptures, and by the church. I suspect that the Prince of Preachers considered expounding upon THE gospel, explaining its theological underpinnings, to be part of "preaching the gospel." If so, he would be asserting little more than a conviction that Calvinism is the correct explanation of the gospel - rather than an element expressed during the presentation of the gospel. He also seems to be intimating that the language used, and assertions made, by those preachers operating outside of the framework of what has come to be known as Calvinism generally assert positions inconsistent with Scriptural truth - will most certainly stray away from an accurate and clear offer of the true gospel. This certainly seems to be the case in the broader evangelical church that frequently seems to offer a different gospel - one providing a remedy against loneliness and the trials of life - essentially offering Jesus as a new best friend, rather than a Sovereign Redeemer.
Who ever said dumbing down the content?
I wouldn't say God couldn't use a presentation that explicitly tries to prove that Christ didn't die for everyone (and I think Pergy would agree).
What defined which way? Pergy's friend's FB status?? What's wrong with it?
If Pergy is using neo-evangelical language, how is that any different than this?:
Do you believe that there is a way to make the Gospel more effective or less effective? (not that it guarantees results, but is there a type of preaching that is especially owned of God? is there a type of preaching that hinders the Word from doing its work?)
I am okay if it is just a matter of terminology and our ideas are essentially in agreement, but with regards to what Pergy said about preaching that does touch on limited atonement being ineffective, I disagree with the very essence of what he is saying. Expounding upon the doctrines of grace does not by itself make the preaching/gospel presentation/evangelism poor in any sense, and it most certainly doesn't make it ineffective.
I am okay if it is just a matter of terminology and our ideas are essentially in agreement, but with regards to what Pergy said about preaching that does touch on limited atonement being ineffective, I disagree with the very essence of what he is saying. Expounding upon the doctrines of grace does not by itself make the preaching/gospel presentation/evangelism poor in any sense, and it most certainly doesn't make it ineffective.
OK, I understand you better now. If Pergy means that preaching limited atonement in and of itself renders the message ineffective, I would disagree as well. Or else how can a pastor who wants to preach effectively as well as preach faithfully preach a passage like John 10?
If, however, he means that there are ways of preaching limited atonement that render a sermon less effective (I hesitate to say ineffective now that I consider it), then I would agree. There are some who, when they preach it, leave off the free offer of the Gospel. They are afraid to preach an atonement that is sufficient for their hearers, and they forget that they "are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." (2 Cor. 5:20-21).
Limited atonement should be preached where the Scriptures teach it. But just as the apostles never said, "Jesus died for your sins personally," they also never said, "Jesus only died for the sins of the elect ." They said "Jesus died for sinners" and "for all who believe." They persuaded men they were in need of faith and repentance and freely bid them come to the Savior. As I said, Satan is not beyond using limited atonement to pluck up the seeds that fall on the hearts of unbelievers.
For the record, I'd also say that unconditional election or total depravity can be preached in ways that cause unbelievers to think that it's useless to pray that God would grant them a new heart of faith. Sure, those two doctrines should be preached, but in what way? In the way that Christ and the apostles preached it. Not in the way it's all lined out in a systematics book.
I know most of the post dealt with non-believers- and I know it's not the primary goal of preaching, but it is a goal, nonetheless.
I'm not saying anyone here in particular has a problem with that, but I've known some who have. So I'm just making sure.
I am okay if it is just a matter of terminology and our ideas are essentially in agreement, but with regards to what Pergy said about preaching that does touch on limited atonement being ineffective, I disagree with the very essence of what he is saying. Expounding upon the doctrines of grace does not by itself make the preaching/gospel presentation/evangelism poor in any sense, and it most certainly doesn't make it ineffective.
OK, I understand you better now. If Pergy means that preaching limited atonement in and of itself renders the message ineffective, I would disagree as well. Or else how can a pastor who wants to preach effectively as well as preach faithfully preach a passage like John 10?
If, however, he means that there are ways of preaching limited atonement that render a sermon less effective (I hesitate to say ineffective now that I consider it), then I would agree. There are some who, when they preach it, leave off the free offer of the Gospel. They are afraid to preach an atonement that is sufficient for their hearers, and they forget that they "are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." (2 Cor. 5:20-21).
Limited atonement should be preached where the Scriptures teach it. But just as the apostles never said, "Jesus died for your sins personally," they also never said, "Jesus only died for the sins of the elect ." They said "Jesus died for sinners" and "for all who believe." They persuaded men they were in need of faith and repentance and freely bid them come to the Savior. As I said, Satan is not beyond using limited atonement to pluck up the seeds that fall on the hearts of unbelievers.
For the record, I'd also say that unconditional election or total depravity can be preached in ways that cause unbelievers to think that it's useless to pray that God would grant them a new heart of faith. Sure, those two doctrines should be preached, but in what way? In the way that Christ and the apostles preached it. Not in the way it's all lined out in a systematics book.
I know most of the post dealt with non-believers- and I know it's not the primary goal of preaching, but it is a goal, nonetheless.
I'm not saying anyone here in particular has a problem with that, but I've known some who have. So I'm just making sure.
Words have meanings Pergy, and careless usage of words means being careless with meanings. I'm sorry if I'm boring you in the process of wanting to clarify biblical ideas. And no, you have not clarified on what you had meant in that prior post about not encountering effective preaching that touches on limited atonement.
---------- Post added at 06:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:49 PM ----------
I am okay if it is just a matter of terminology and our ideas are essentially in agreement, but with regards to what Pergy said about preaching that does touch on limited atonement being ineffective, I disagree with the very essence of what he is saying. Expounding upon the doctrines of grace does not by itself make the preaching/gospel presentation/evangelism poor in any sense, and it most certainly doesn't make it ineffective.
OK, I understand you better now. If Pergy means that preaching limited atonement in and of itself renders the message ineffective, I would disagree as well. Or else how can a pastor who wants to preach effectively as well as preach faithfully preach a passage like John 10?
If, however, he means that there are ways of preaching limited atonement that render a sermon less effective (I hesitate to say ineffective now that I consider it), then I would agree. There are some who, when they preach it, leave off the free offer of the Gospel. They are afraid to preach an atonement that is sufficient for their hearers, and they forget that they "are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." (2 Cor. 5:20-21).
Limited atonement should be preached where the Scriptures teach it. But just as the apostles never said, "Jesus died for your sins personally," they also never said, "Jesus only died for the sins of the elect ." They said "Jesus died for sinners" and "for all who believe." They persuaded men they were in need of faith and repentance and freely bid them come to the Savior. As I said, Satan is not beyond using limited atonement to pluck up the seeds that fall on the hearts of unbelievers.
For the record, I'd also say that unconditional election or total depravity can be preached in ways that cause unbelievers to think that it's useless to pray that God would grant them a new heart of faith. Sure, those two doctrines should be preached, but in what way? In the way that Christ and the apostles preached it. Not in the way it's all lined out in a systematics book.
I know most of the post dealt with non-believers- and I know it's not the primary goal of preaching, but it is a goal, nonetheless.
I'm not saying anyone here in particular has a problem with that, but I've known some who have. So I'm just making sure.
Thank you Marie for giving the good amount of nuance that is necessary. I quite agree. Many others may not though, especially pertaining to the free offer of the gospel.
Our oral presentation of the Gospel totally loses its effect on sinners, if we are not faithfully living the Gospel at the same time.
Totally? Can you defend that?
Phil. 1:15-17 "Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from goodwill: The former preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice."
YouTube - The Gospel in 6 Minutes
Here is a summary of the Gospel by John Piper in 6 minutes.
It is biblical, clear, doesn't contain a lot of jargon, and is even personal and connects with the emotions.
The Gospel is faithfully presented and I believe it is effective, and yet the five points of calvinism are not explicitly explained.
Words have meanings Pergy, and careless usage of words means being careless with meanings. I'm sorry if I'm boring you in the process of wanting to clarify biblical ideas. And no, you have not clarified on what you had meant in that prior post about not encountering effective preaching that touches on limited atonement.
---------- Post added at 06:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:49 PM ----------
I am okay if it is just a matter of terminology and our ideas are essentially in agreement, but with regards to what Pergy said about preaching that does touch on limited atonement being ineffective, I disagree with the very essence of what he is saying. Expounding upon the doctrines of grace does not by itself make the preaching/gospel presentation/evangelism poor in any sense, and it most certainly doesn't make it ineffective.
OK, I understand you better now. If Pergy means that preaching limited atonement in and of itself renders the message ineffective, I would disagree as well. Or else how can a pastor who wants to preach effectively as well as preach faithfully preach a passage like John 10?
If, however, he means that there are ways of preaching limited atonement that render a sermon less effective (I hesitate to say ineffective now that I consider it), then I would agree. There are some who, when they preach it, leave off the free offer of the Gospel. They are afraid to preach an atonement that is sufficient for their hearers, and they forget that they "are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." (2 Cor. 5:20-21).
Limited atonement should be preached where the Scriptures teach it. But just as the apostles never said, "Jesus died for your sins personally," they also never said, "Jesus only died for the sins of the elect ." They said "Jesus died for sinners" and "for all who believe." They persuaded men they were in need of faith and repentance and freely bid them come to the Savior. As I said, Satan is not beyond using limited atonement to pluck up the seeds that fall on the hearts of unbelievers.
For the record, I'd also say that unconditional election or total depravity can be preached in ways that cause unbelievers to think that it's useless to pray that God would grant them a new heart of faith. Sure, those two doctrines should be preached, but in what way? In the way that Christ and the apostles preached it. Not in the way it's all lined out in a systematics book.
I know most of the post dealt with non-believers- and I know it's not the primary goal of preaching, but it is a goal, nonetheless.
I'm not saying anyone here in particular has a problem with that, but I've known some who have. So I'm just making sure.
Thank you Marie for giving the good amount of nuance that is necessary. I quite agree. Many others may not though, especially pertaining to the free offer of the gospel.
I stand by my usage of the word effective.
I have never seen an effective Gospel presentation that explicitly included the 4the point of limited atonement. These sorts of issues are best left to discispleship and not initial evangelistic contact. If the Gospel is clearly presented, this might lead to follow-up questions or later dialogues, etc, and a number of issues could then be brought up.
Often, one is dealing with an initial contact or are pressed with the limits of time. It is better to give the big picture of Scripture at first in a clear and concise way and to gain a relationship so that the person may trust you as a resource for answering later questions.
The best evangelists I have seen get right to the heart of the Gospel about our sin, Christ's work for sinners and about repentance and faith. It is biblical, clear and does not get into distracting issues. Implicitly, it could be said that limited atonement might be touched on as we speak of "Christ's work for sinners," but most people do not explicitly think "limited atonement" at these turns of phrases.
Some of the worst gospel presentations I have seen have been by five point calvinists who wear the five points on their sleeve. These witnessers have gotten distracted by talking about modesty in church, the Sabbath, why "world" doesn't actually mean "world", when their audiences don't even know the big picture yet.
I, myself, have been offended at the techniques that some of my fellow calvinists have used in pressing people and telling them why they are wrong. I have preferred not to go out and witness with many of them even when asked because, first, I think cold contacts are less effective than nurturing deeper relationships and, two, I am often embarrassed at their approach and technique, and their mannerisms as they corner and harass strangers.
If we are talking to false religious leaders (MarieP's observation about the way Jesus talked to Pharisees versus nornal people should be remembered) then we can be more direct and challenging, but I find many calvinistic street evangelists and those that engage total strangers to lack many interpersonal skills, lack in approachability, come off as threatening, and then chase rabbit trails or needless theological controversies when the persons being witnessed to probably could be blessed more by hearing the big picture and a clear and simple gospel presented instead of why Jesus did not die for everyone.
So again, I say that an effective Gospel presentation need not, and usually should not, explicitly mirror the five points.
To answer the original question: No, Calvinism is not the Gospel. The Gospel is the Gospel. To say that Calvinism is the Gospel is to say that any other people other than Calvinists are not Christians and that is a dangerous and very wrong thing to say.
14 So the LORD God said to the serpent: "Because you have done this, You are cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel." 16 To the woman He said: "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you." 17Then to Adam He said, "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat of it': "Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.
20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.
21 Also for Adam and his wife the LORD God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.
Calvinism is not the Gospel. However, the Gospel is understood and expressed most clearly, most completely and most beautifully within the framework of Calvinism.
Jason,
I think the burden of proof is on you to prove how my approach to preaching and evangelism is any different than Jonathan Edwards, Brainerd, Carey or even the Piper quote. If that is "neo-evangelical" than give me more of it.