Discussion in 'Church Office' started by Pergamum, Apr 7, 2018.

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  1. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    "… appoint elders in every town as I directed you—if anyone is above reproach, … not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. For an overseer, as God’s steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. …
    For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. They must be silenced... (Titus 1:9-16 ESV emphasis added)


    I am curious about what this is exactly and instances of it as it applies to church office. What was Paul talking against?
  2. Ask Mr. Religion

    Ask Mr. Religion Flatly Unflappable

    Insubordination here deals with the children:

    Titus 1:6 (ESV)
    if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination

    Titus 1:6 (KJV)
    If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

    The elder is expected to rule in his home as he would rule in the church, that is, his whole family ought to be a sort of mirror of chaste and honorable discipline. If his children are unruly (insubordinate), one wonders what leadership in the home is taking place by he that would lead the flock.

    In other words, the apple is not allowed to fall too far from the tree before others begin to wonder if the tree is gone awry. ;)
  3. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Thanks. So not his own insubordination but his children's?

    How about 2 Peter 2:10 where the traits of a false teacher include, "self-willed, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries.." What does that mean?

    In Jude verse 8 we read of those who, "reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings." I am struggling to figure out what specifically is meant by both of those sins. What is "rejecting authority"?

    I heard someone this week say we should never disrespect our leaders (he seemed to mean to criticize them harshly, and he included both religious and spiritual leaders). Also, 4 years ago I was accused by a mission org of being "insubordinate" because I rejected some advice (it was bad advice). But I see that many times it seems almost obligatory to fight against bad leadership.
  4. Ask Mr. Religion

    Ask Mr. Religion Flatly Unflappable

    In that verse, yes, the children.

    Men who are unafraid to falsely accuse those favored by God in governmental authority.

    ...that they are impure men, given up to wickedness. Other marks follow, that they despised government, and feared not to calumniate* and reproach men whom God had favored with honorable stations in life. But these words refer to the same thing; for after having said that they held government in contempt, he immediately points out the fountain of this evil, that they were presumptuous, or audacious, and self-willed, or refractory*; and lastly, that he might more fully exhibit their pride, he says that they did not fear nor tremble when they treated dignities with contempt. For it is a monstrous arrogance to regard as nothing the glory which shines forth in dignities appointed by God
    * calumniate: To accuse or charge one falsely, and knowingly, with some crime, offense, or something, disreputable; to slander.
    * refractory: Sullen or perverse in opposition or disobedience; obstinate in non-compliance; as a refractory child; a refractory servant
    NIV...celestial beings...sigh.

    Jude 8 (ESV)
    Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones.

    Jude 8 (KJV)
    ¶ Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities

    Calvin again is instructive:
    ...appears from the words of Jude that they were wont to speak insolently and reproachfully of magistrates, like the fanatics of the present day, who not only grumble because they are restrained by the authority of magistrates, but furiously declaim against all government, and say that the power of the sword is profane and opposed to godliness; in short, they superciliously reject from the Church of God all kings and all magistrates. Dignities or glories are orders or ranks eminent in power or honor.​

    We should not disrespect those in authority over us. We should be mindful of who we are speaking to or about. Disrespect is part and parcel disdain, contempt, scorn, and disregard. It is a fifth commandment violation for starters:
    Q. 124. Who are meant by father and mother in the fifth commandment?
    A. By father and mother, in the fifth commandment, are meant, not only natural parents, but all superiors in age and gifts; and especially such as, by God’s ordinance, are over us in place of authority, whether in family, church, or commonwealth. Prov. 23:22, 25: Eph. 6:1-2; 1 Tim. 5:1-2; Gen. 4:20-22; Gen. 45:8; 2 Kings 5: 13; 2 Kings 2:12; 2 Kings 13:14; Gal. 4:19; Isa. 49:23.

    Disagreements with those in authority need not be voiced disprespectfully. Mud slung is ground lost. We should hold these persons in high esteem (respect) for they have their positions by virtue of God's own will. When we deem to treat them with disdain or contempt, we are in effect presuming upon the secret will of God, assuming we know the what and the why of His own good counsel.

    Respecting another is not a call for shrinking violets. Rather it is a call for proper comportment of one's self in the methods we use to express our disagreements. All that we think, do, or say, should be to bring glory to God. We do not glorify God by disobeying His commandments (as in the fifth commandment).

    I can think of a few examples where insubordination (defiance of authority, refusal to obey) are warranted. For example, one would be when what we are ordered to do is unlawful. Another would be when what we are ordered to do violates the express revealed will of God.

    In general, we submit to those in authority over us, we respect them, and work within the proper means available to us if we disagree with those in authority over us.

    For the case wherein you were accused of insubordination, I cannot say much without all the facts plainly and accurately available to review. Perhaps one approach was to comply and then seek means of redress within the organization's defined (whether informally or formally so) processes and procedures to preserve the orderly functioning (the peace) of the organization.
  5. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Okay, thanks.
  6. Jack K

    Jack K Puritan Board Professor

    Sadly, I have known more than a few elders who liked making rules for others but were not good at being subordinate themselves when they should have been. One in particular prided himself for being a staunch defender of orthodoxy as an elder in his church, but he had a terrible reputation in his workplace as a guy who badmouthed his bosses and went around talking about how he could do their jobs better. He often concluded his explanations about how he could fix the workplace with comments about how great he had made his church—"you should come sometime." Few people took him up on that. Despite his orthodoxy, he was a lousy witness for Christ because he was an insubordinate person in his whole attitude toward superiors.

    In Titus 1, the courage to rebuke unsound doctrine is one qualification for office, but another is that an elder not be arrogant. Those who would wield authority must also be willing to submit to proper authority.
  7. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    Those false teachers were slandering Jesus and Angels. as they refuse to submit themselves to the God given line of authority, as they were instead teaching supposed revelations from themselves as doctrines.
  8. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    How do you slander and angel? What exactly where they saying?
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