How would you describe the Institute in Basic Life Principles?
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Institute in Basic Life Principles
- Thread starter Stephen L Smith
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The basic Principles level can be very beneficial. I learned a lot about what God expected in how I should relate to authority in an age where we were taught to question even the respect due to authority. I learned that God gives grace to the humble and that God will use authority and meant for that authority to help mature us into what we should be. That is very biblical when we read why God gave us parents, pastors, teachers, etc. The Fifth commandment is proof of that as is Hebrews 13. We should be careful about moving those markers. Some of the levels that went past the basics tended to be cultural preferences and tended toward some legalistic non biblical leanings. But I greatly benefited from the Seminar when I attended it at The Scope in Virginia Beach back in the early 80's.
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation...
Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
This teaching also helped me in my service in the Military. I can't tell all the dangers the Lord has kept me from because of my submission to my Elders and authority. Most of the time I didn't see what they perceived as a Parent does when raising a child. So I must say that I gained a tremendous amount of blessing from what I learned at the IBYC seminar. And oh yeah, I liked the Pineapple story also. But that is another story. I met the missionary who wrote that.
At the same time I know of people who got really messed up as adults who tried to say they were to be obedient to their parents even as adults. Every teaching that has truth has the propensity to err in the heart of man.
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation...
Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
This teaching also helped me in my service in the Military. I can't tell all the dangers the Lord has kept me from because of my submission to my Elders and authority. Most of the time I didn't see what they perceived as a Parent does when raising a child. So I must say that I gained a tremendous amount of blessing from what I learned at the IBYC seminar. And oh yeah, I liked the Pineapple story also. But that is another story. I met the missionary who wrote that.
At the same time I know of people who got really messed up as adults who tried to say they were to be obedient to their parents even as adults. Every teaching that has truth has the propensity to err in the heart of man.
Unbelievable amounts of legalism and technique parading as biblical teaching. Do the right things and jump through the proper hoops. No dependency on God needed. No Holy Spirit working needed. Just do the seminar stuff.
I went to all of them. It is was just so confusing to a 21-22 year old girl to try and figure out how I was supposed to submit to my Dad, when he had regular screaming fits that I needed to get rid of my g-d da-ned effing bible and stop going to a effing church with idiot Christians.
Gothard never did tackle Jonathan taking David's side against his father as I recall.
Then there were the women with abusive husbands, and all they had to do was submit harder and hubby would change and see the light and stop abusing. Of course wifey had to stay and get beat up, at least back when the seminar started. Maybe he altered that a bit in later years?
Then there were the ancestral curses. I know why Timothy says not to get all engrossed in endless geneologies...God forsaw Gothard
It is so 20 somethings like I was won't go investigating all your generations way back to find out if anybody on either side was a witch or a mason or a God only knows what, so you can break all the curses of your ancestors going way back. Oh what a horrible dark cloud that was, worrying about my masonic grandad and my great great great who was the daughter of a NH Indian Chief...imagine the curses over me from the Indian great spirit idolatry.
Gothard is what you call "heresy of emphasis". Yes, there is a true teaching about submission to authority, the same way there are true teachings about a lot of things. But fix on one out of balance to the extent he does and you get nothing but a mess. I know so many Calvinists who had to detox from their early Gothard influences. I would avoid his legalism like the plague.
I went to all of them. It is was just so confusing to a 21-22 year old girl to try and figure out how I was supposed to submit to my Dad, when he had regular screaming fits that I needed to get rid of my g-d da-ned effing bible and stop going to a effing church with idiot Christians.
Gothard never did tackle Jonathan taking David's side against his father as I recall.
Then there were the women with abusive husbands, and all they had to do was submit harder and hubby would change and see the light and stop abusing. Of course wifey had to stay and get beat up, at least back when the seminar started. Maybe he altered that a bit in later years?
Then there were the ancestral curses. I know why Timothy says not to get all engrossed in endless geneologies...God forsaw Gothard
It is so 20 somethings like I was won't go investigating all your generations way back to find out if anybody on either side was a witch or a mason or a God only knows what, so you can break all the curses of your ancestors going way back. Oh what a horrible dark cloud that was, worrying about my masonic grandad and my great great great who was the daughter of a NH Indian Chief...imagine the curses over me from the Indian great spirit idolatry. Gothard is what you call "heresy of emphasis". Yes, there is a true teaching about submission to authority, the same way there are true teachings about a lot of things. But fix on one out of balance to the extent he does and you get nothing but a mess. I know so many Calvinists who had to detox from their early Gothard influences. I would avoid his legalism like the plague.
JohnGill
Puritan Board Senior
Unbelievable amounts of legalism and technique parading as biblical teaching. Do the right things and jump through the proper hoops. No dependency on God needed. No Holy Spirit working needed. Just do the seminar stuff.
I went to all of them. It is was just so confusing to a 21-22 year old girl to try and figure out how I was supposed to submit to my Dad, when he had regular screaming fits that I needed to get rid of my g-d da-ned effing bible and stop going to a effing church with idiot Christians.
Gothard never did tackle Jonathan taking David's side against his father as I recall.
Then there were the women with abusive husbands, and all they had to do was submit harder and hubby would change and see the light and stop abusing. Of course wifey had to stay and get beat up, at least back when the seminar started. Maybe he altered that a bit in later years?
Then there were the ancestral curses. I know why Timothy says not to get all engrossed in endless geneologies...God forsaw Gothard
Gothard is what you call "heresy of emphasis". Yes, there is a true teaching about submission to authority, the same way there are true teachings about a lot of things. But fix on one out of balance to the extent he does and you get nothing but a mess. I know so many Calvinists who had to detox from their early Gothard influences. I would avoid his legalism like the plague.
As a former IFB person I had always thought Gothard was limited to IFB churches. I didn't know that his nonsense had infected Calvinist Churches as well. The IFB church I attended was heavy into Gothardism. When they pushed it on me I asked to read the book first since so many at church had them. When I was told I had to attend the "course" to get a book my red-flag-o-meter blew up. Later I found one in a second hand shop and read through it. It had very little scriptural foundation and much of what scripture was mentioned was a twisting of scripture to provide a foundation for many of his teachings. I also found a PDF copy online years ago of a newer version and still the same old nonsense. I put Gothard in the same crazy boat as Peter Ruckman.
I saw a lot of good come of it. But then again, it was to be used in the context of the Church, I had some good leadership. For all of the bad stories you guys are telling I know many good stories. I actually know a lot of things about a lot of parachurch ministries and Churches that would curl your hair also that are related to those ministries good and bad.
As one Pastor Tom Lutz once asked me, "We are Reformed, why do we need Gothard." I tended to agree. Maybe for some it was an overcorrection. I know for a lot of people it wasn't necessarily that. I know a lot of 3rd generational kids from that era that are walking with God. Their parents learned some good stuff and passed it on and they are still passing on the good stuff. Unfortunately, there were those who didn't have a good balance. That happens in a lot of places.
As one Pastor Tom Lutz once asked me, "We are Reformed, why do we need Gothard." I tended to agree. Maybe for some it was an overcorrection. I know for a lot of people it wasn't necessarily that. I know a lot of 3rd generational kids from that era that are walking with God. Their parents learned some good stuff and passed it on and they are still passing on the good stuff. Unfortunately, there were those who didn't have a good balance. That happens in a lot of places.
On this side of the world USA slogans can be hard to understand. Is IFB Independent Fundamentalist Baptist?
JohnGill
Puritan Board Senior
Sorry about that. But yes, it means Independent Fundamentalist Baptist. Sometimes you may see it with a "x" at the end. This designates a more extreme variety such as a Ruckmanite church or a Baptist Brider church. If you go to The Jack Hyles Home Page - mp3 audio sermons, bible studies & books you can get a good idea of what in general is believed.
Mushroom
Puritan Board Doctor
Definitely nutbaggy stuff. Back in the late '90's there was a cohort of Gothard followers at our Church. All of them have long since left, most have descended into variously gross antinomianism, home church nuttiness, or more extreme forms of legalism. It may be that some people have benefited individually from it, but remember that God used a donkey to convey His message once. Had one gothardite lady tell me on a prayer chain about a youngster's problems followed by "You know, he IS adopted..." I responded that I was, too. She stumbled about apologetically until I said I was adopted into the Lord's family. That quieted her down.
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Bill Gothard brought the ministry here to New Zealand about 1990. He said the Lord had given him a verse about "from the rising of the sun .... the Lord's name is to be praised" and noted that New Zealand is the first main country to see the rising of the sun!
Aside of the nonsense I have personally observed, it seems to me to have also produced some well disciplined and godly families. Also if you note the Statement of Faith, it is very evangelical.
Aside of the nonsense I have personally observed, it seems to me to have also produced some well disciplined and godly families. Also if you note the Statement of Faith, it is very evangelical.
The bottom line is that Gothardism is not needed in the church. What is needed is sound biblical teaching from pastors and elders, with the added component of accountability. Gothardism is like processed food. It will keep your body fueled, but it will also bring with it a bunch of unhealthy additives.
JohnGill
Puritan Board Senior
Theoretical
Puritan Board Professor
If you want to see the real fruits of this movement, just look at how it treats the afflicted and suffering. At least Pentecostals who think it's a demon don't blame you for your suffering per se. I've seen some really terrible spiritual callousness and generational cursing from Gothard-influenced folks.
It is interesting that 57% see the IBLP as a cult; 43% see it as a valid Christian Christian organisation. Some years ago I saw a full statement of faith of the IBLP and it was solidly evangelical. i cannot find this but see a summary at Statement of Faith | Institute in Basic Life Principles. Therefore would it be more appropriate to call them a sect than a cult? 
It is interesting that 57% see the IBLP as a cult; 43% see it as a valid Christian Christian organisation. Some years ago I saw a full statement of faith of the IBLP and it was solidly evangelical. i cannot find this but see a summary at Statement of Faith | Institute in Basic Life Principles. Therefore would it be more appropriate to call them a sect than a cult?
How about "not helpful"? Gothardism attempts to do what the church is responsible for.
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How can I receive salvation?
http://iblp.org/questions/do-i-really-need-be-saved
They clearly hold to a gospel message as I understand it.
http://iblp.org/questions/do-i-really-need-be-saved
They clearly hold to a gospel message as I understand it.
Mushroom
Puritan Board Doctor
The same would have been said of the wildly pentecostal pelagians that I was involved with in my early 20's, Randy. Pelagianism was condemned as a heresy a long time ago. God did use them for pulling a good number of His children out of the fire, mainly through being exposed regularly to His Word. Does that excuse the heresy?
I am not so sure about that Brad. For one thing they don't have a gospel that proclaims justification by faith alone based solely upon the Person and Work of Christ.
As I noted above I have seen parachurch organizational stuff used and abused. I have seen it done in congregations who do not have a proper ecclesiastical structure. I have seen some horrendous things. Just look at how the Bible is used and misused by various people through the ages. Finney definitely ruined many but his root problem was that he didn't have the Gospel. IBYC shares the gospel message about our need for Christ as the sole means for salvation. Not by works of righteousness. It isn't the same as I understand it. So I would have to say it isn't the same thing as the wildly pentecostal pelagians.
As I noted above I have seen parachurch organizational stuff used and abused. I have seen it done in congregations who do not have a proper ecclesiastical structure. I have seen some horrendous things. Just look at how the Bible is used and misused by various people through the ages. Finney definitely ruined many but his root problem was that he didn't have the Gospel. IBYC shares the gospel message about our need for Christ as the sole means for salvation. Not by works of righteousness. It isn't the same as I understand it. So I would have to say it isn't the same thing as the wildly pentecostal pelagians.
Not from what I have seen and known Brad. I am saddened that your experience has been so bad. We both have different experiences. You seem to have had some poor experiences as you would have in a Pentecostal Church that had a false take on the scriptures themselves. I was a Navigator. I have seen that material used in all kinds of Churches as I have seen Evangelism Explosion used even in Nazerene Churches. I guess we have different experiences. Just because someone takes the bible and preaches from it and ruins lives by their misapplications is not going to make me think the Bible is a bad thing to turn to.
The gospel is spelled out very well in those presentations and the Pentecostals and Finney's of the world would repudiate it.
I just haven't seen that Josh. I have to admit that I have seen some strange stuff in the material and have not defended it but stubbornly opposed some of it. But I have not heard those things called gospel.
JohnGill
Puritan Board Senior
God forbid. Perhaps I'm naive, but I always find myself surprised when Reformed churches end up with the same issues as IFB(x) churches.
Randy, I know others who have had a positive experience from the material. For many, it reached them at the right time in their lives. To me, the problem is that there are too many more lives whom the material has hurt with its various false teachings. (Generational bondage, extreme authority stands, dogmatic assertions on arbitrary matters, bad definitions of theological terms such as grace, etc.) And as Bill has rightly said, Gothardism is trying to do the job of the church. I think churches would be better off with Baxter's Christian Directory than the works of Gothard. Weighed in the balance, Gothardism does more harm than good and if for no other reason, this is enough to preclude it from use amongst the churches of Christ.
As an aside, though their statement of faith may seem to be within the bounds of the true presentation of the gospel, this is no guarantee that Gothard's material presents such a true presentation. One only has to look at the way Federal Visionists appear orthodox in many of their statements and yet redefine the terms within those statements to reflect their heterodoxy. When dealing with an organization that has caused so much conflict we should hold such thoughts in remembrance.
I can agree with most of this. There are dangers in some of it I admit that need to weighed in the balance by the Church. I also in years past have been critical. You can probably find some of those criticisms on this forum. But i am not willing to classify them as a cult. That is a step to far. How Churches use the material can be cultish as there are cults that use the Bible. Even cults attend and have used Billy Graham crusades which is a whole other discussion. Chuckle
Baxter was not sound on the crucial topic of Justification by grace through faith alone. One can argue that his Christian directory is based on this flaw.
Don Kistler
Puritan Board Sophomore
I attended the Institute in Basic Youth Conflicts several times as a young adult, as well as their Leadership Seminar once at UCLA back in the early 70's. What I saw is that most of what I heard back then was largely Old Covenant thinking: "If you do this, then God will do that."
I remember a mountain of guilt when hearing that Gothard had done this and that, when he didn't have a car of his own, and God gave him 7 cars in one day. When that didn't happen to me, the obvious response is: "What am I doing wrong?"
There are good moral principles to be learned from these seminars, and some good biblical principles to apply, but a lot of discernment is needed. I felt that those attending knew far more about what was in their red binder than what was in their Bible.
My two cents worth...
I remember a mountain of guilt when hearing that Gothard had done this and that, when he didn't have a car of his own, and God gave him 7 cars in one day. When that didn't happen to me, the obvious response is: "What am I doing wrong?"
There are good moral principles to be learned from these seminars, and some good biblical principles to apply, but a lot of discernment is needed. I felt that those attending knew far more about what was in their red binder than what was in their Bible.
My two cents worth...
I was wondering how true this authority benefit was Randy. Those horns on your photo make you look quite a rebel
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