Infant Vaccinations

Discussion in 'Family Forum' started by zsmcd, Oct 27, 2015.

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  1. Abeard

    Abeard Puritan Board Freshman

    I appreciate your thoughtfulness in this area Zach. Here are some links that shows the other side of the coin (I realize some of these are blogs, but the authors give solid research to back their claims).

    http://www.livingwhole.org/category/vaccines-2/
    http://vran.org/about-vaccines/vaccine-essentials/vaccination-the-basics/
    http://www.rtl.org/prolife_issues/LifeNotes/VaccinesAbortion_FetalTissue.html
    http://www.vaccinationinformationnetwork.com/
    http://autismrawdata.net/1/post/2013/08/raw-data-measles.html
    http://www.thelibertybeacon.com/201...t-out-corruption-in-vaccines-promotion-11498/
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuA4VhhcaBg
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oYAVLDyR6Y
    http://vran.org/ingredients-childhood-vaccines-in-canada/
    http://www.ias.org.nz/vaccination-2/101-reasons-to-not-vaccinate-part-1/
    http://www.vaccineriskawareness.com/
    http://www.nvic.org/
    http://www.livingwhole.org/what-you-didnt-know-about-the-aborted-baby-parts-in-your-vaccines/

    A question we should consider is, if vaccines are effective, why do so many people fear the person who is not vaccinated? Shouldn't they care less if they run into a non-vaccinated person if they themselves are "protected?"

    Another question to consider is our level of trust we place in the federal government. As a general principal, it seems that in today's world (or for most of human history) the government is untrustworthy and corruption permeates every level. So, if you question your government's involvement in other areas (money, education, security, food, environment) then would you not question the government and its involvement in regards to our health care? I am not trying to make assumptions. Perhaps you and others on here do trust their government more than I do, but if you do not place much trust in your government as a general rule, than I would begin to investigate how trustworthy they are in this area (a place to start on this topic would be to google "CDC whistleblowers")

    One other big issue for me was finding out that the companies who manufacture the vaccines cannot have a lawsuit brought against them for damages resulting from side effects of the vaccines (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/supreme...ant-sue-drug-makers-for-kids-health-problems/
    ). To me that shows there is no accountability. Would you purchase or drive a car manufactured by a company who you knew could never be sued? Would you go to a doctor for treatment if you knew that doctor could not be sued for malpractice?

    I am not against all vaccines but I think we need to weigh the pros and the cons carefully and meticulously. Someone who does not vaccinate is taking a risk. But someone who does vaccinate is also taking a risk of the side effects that could occur from injecting this substance. In the end you have to choose the course of action where you feel the risks are fewer than the alternative.
     
  2. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Alex,

    Research herd immunity.
     
  3. Unoriginalname

    Unoriginalname Puritan Board Junior

    Because we would not like the return of polio or measles as common diseases. We have truly reached an age where people dont appreciate how many children routinely died and were disabled from things that we never even hear about anymore. You also have the issue as Andrew pointed out that certain vaccines can only be given after a child reaches a certain age so by refusing to vaccinate your children you do not only risk your own children becoming ill but the children of others. This paranoia surrounding vaccines is embarrassing
     
  4. DeniseM

    DeniseM Puritan Board Freshman

    We're told not to ask where our meat comes from, for conscience's sake, but if we know that it is offered to idols we are to refuse to eat. How then are we allowed to knowingly inject ourselves or our children with vaccines that were produce using the tissues of murdered children? I never can seem to wrap my mind around that one.
     
  5. KMK

    KMK Administrator Staff Member

    I remember someone older than myself ( I don't remember who) saying, if you don't vaccinate your children against measles you probably have never seen a child die of measles.
     
  6. lynnie

    lynnie Puritan Board Graduate

    We had friends in Latvia right after the USSR collapsed. Trade was disrupted and it took a couple years to start getting vaccinations from the west instead of Russia. It did not take long for outbreaks of polio and diptheria to begin. Babies died.

    You don't need to get chicken pox and Hep B, but I would get the classic basics, and get them spread out on an old fashioned schedule, even if it means more visits to the doctor.

    I hope your wife intends to nurse the child. A great deal of immunity is conferred by nursing.

    Keep in mind that back during epidemics, say polio, often in one family you could have three kids, one with a fever but recovering fine, one with leg paralysis, and one who dies. Human immunity is a mystery. It is my opinion that kids who get autism from a vaccination probably would have been the ones who died from the disease itself. If they react so badly to inactivated virus, how would they fare with the real thing?
     
  7. lynnie

    lynnie Puritan Board Graduate

    This is from snopes, so should be accurate:

    http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/pepsi.asp

    If you drink Pepsi, and possibly other major food brands, you are most likely ingesting flavoring additives derived from an old aborted cell line, same as vaccines. Snopes was not able to get direct replies from the companies but I read elsewhere (don't feel like looking for reputable links) that it is certain that Nestle and Pepsi and Coke are all using this stuff. At some point you just need to beg God for mercy on being part of an entire corrupt system, and maybe focus on stopping current day abortions.

    From a strictly medical point of view, I would think vaccines grown on human tissue are far safer than those grown on animals, where you actually inject animal materials into a person. Horowitz wrote the definitive work on all the monkey viruses they didn't know about when they made polio vaccine back in the 50s, and some may be carcinogenic. Those are the ones I got.....
     
  8. Edward

    Edward Puritanboard Commissioner

    I understand that shingles can be quite unpleasant in older folks.
     
  9. lynnie

    lynnie Puritan Board Graduate

    Well yeah, if I was an adult who never had chicken pox I might study up on this and get the vacc. I know CP can be very hard for adults who never had it as a child. But OP is having a baby. Does the new baby need a CP right away?

    Even whooping couch is back for people that got vaccinated. I wonder if more resistant strains are coming in with immigrants. It really is vital to do all you can to keep your immunity up. Make your kids run around and not sit in front of electronic screens all day. Go organic if possible, cut out the junk food. And definitely nurse a baby.
     
  10. Edward

    Edward Puritanboard Commissioner

    You have it backwards. You need the shingles vaccination if you DID have chicken pox. That's why it's good to vaccinate children. Those of us who came along before the chicken pox vaccine was available (and were infected) have the choice of the shingles vaccine or the risk of a painful session with shingles. And the retail price for the vaccine is on the high side. ($300-350).
     
  11. AltogetherLovely

    AltogetherLovely Puritan Board Freshman

    If you want a chill up your spine, check out the Federal Register, Volume 49 No. 107, published Friday June 1, 1984. 21 CFR Part 630. Additional Standards for Viral Vaccines, Polio Virus Vaccine, Live, Oral.

    There, you will find this gem of scientific and medical integrity:

    "However, although the continued availability of the vaccine may not be in immediate jeopardy, any possible doubts, whether or not well founded, about the safety of the vaccine cannot be allowed to exist in view of the need to assure that the vaccine will continue to used to the maximum extent consistent with the nation's public health objectives." (bold is mine)

    With stuff like that from the FDA, does anyone really have to wonder where the anti-vaccination movement comes from? "Whether or not well-founded" gives me shivers every time I read it.

    Now, after extensive research into the primary literature (that is, the studies in professional journals), we have gone with a slightly delayed and spaced out vaccine schedule for our children. However, that is really just a punt. I can't do the cost/benefit analysis because the data we have just aren't any good. The methods are always sketchy, and the statistical analysis almost always draws conclusions far beyond what the data actually support. Confounding variables are ignored, or pushed away with the wave of a hand.

    I'm not convinced that vaccines are safe regarding autism or other neurological problems. I'm also not necessarily convinced that they are major contributors. My suspicion is that there is an effect of some kind, but that's about all I can say. But, that's just a suspicion, more of a hint from the data instead of a conclusion.

    On the question of aborted babies and vaccines, I think the Catholic resources listed previously are very good.
     
  12. Unoriginalname

    Unoriginalname Puritan Board Junior

    Yeah it mostly comes from a doctor who purposely made false claims in hopes of launching a class action suit for millions. It also comes from people who have no concept of medicine constantly posting things that basically say "I have a bad feeling about this." This nonsense can only fly because most people here have never seen someone die of the diseases we have nearly done away with in the west due to vaccination
     
  13. KMK

    KMK Administrator Staff Member

    I received my measles inoculation (that's what it was called in those days) in the late 60s, and I distinctly remember the joy and relief upon my mother's face.
     
  14. Fogetaboutit

    Fogetaboutit Puritan Board Freshman

    I understand that some vaccines have their value especially against diseases that have high mortality rates, but I think it's a bit hypocritical to say those who oppose vaccines in any way are using fear mongering tactics. The pro vaccine advocates are definitely using fear tactics, just reread some of the posts in this thread. I'm not against all vaccines but can somebody tell me why it's imperative that I vaccinate my new born child for Hepatitis B?
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2015
  15. Edward

    Edward Puritanboard Commissioner

    Sloppy nursing and the baby in the next crib being infected. In a few years some infected kid at the mothers day out program skins his knee, and your child has a skin break....
     
  16. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    I believe it is a tribute to western medicine and the effectiveness of vaccinations that so many people have so quickly forgotten the epidemic-level fear of diseases like polio in our own recent past as a nation. Parents wouldn't even let their kids go swim at the public pool due to polio fears.

    Now, on the other hand, people have the luxury of being afraid of the very small percentage of folks that experience reactions or ill effects from these vaccinations which prevent these large-scale epidemics.

    The anti-vax movement is, in a way, proof of vaccination's effectiveness.

    Sort of like the reason we don't see uproar over gluten-free food or peanut allergies in Third-World Countries where a quarter of the population is starving.....

    Anti-vax-induced fear is a concern that we can afford to exercise...because of the success of vaccinations.

    http://www.plosin.com/beatbegins/projects/sokol.html

    http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2012/10/16/162670836/wiping-out-polio-how-the-u-s-snuffed-out-a-killer

    http://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/blog/polio-and-swimming-pools-historical-connections
     
  17. Abeard

    Abeard Puritan Board Freshman

    In response to the responses on herd immunity--here is my question: If herd immunity requires roughly 95% to be effective and protect the unprotected 5%, how does one get around the fact that millions of Americans are not up-to-date on their booster shots--not by a long shot (no pun intended haha). If they are not up-to-date on boosters, it means their immunity is compromised--are we really at a 95% rate? I'd say we are far far far below that. Using conventional pro-vaccine wisdom, we should be seeing these diseases sky rocket back, not the few hundred tops we see here and there.


    To follow up a question I posed earlier, here is a documented source that reveals outright lies told by the CDC regarding the link between vaccines and autism: http://truthinmedia.com/reality-check-cdc-scientist-admits-data-of-vaccines-and-autism-was-trashed/ This is one of many examples of the corruption. This news came through a mainstream media outlet.

    A very insightful documentary is called "The Greater Good." You can watch it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_nWp6ZHA2Q
     
  18. Edward

    Edward Puritanboard Commissioner

    Got a link to statistics on this?

    And do you have any understanding as to how vaccination works?

    And do you have any understanding on how herd immunity works?

    Here's a quick, easy read that discusses issues you've ignored as to herd immunity.

    "The magnitude of the indirect effect of vaccine-derived immunity is a function of the transmissibility of the infectious agent, the nature of the immunity induced by the vaccine, the pattern of mixing and infection transmission in populations, and the distribution of the vaccine—and, more importantly, of immunity—in the population. "

    http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/52/7/911.full
     
  19. OPC'n

    OPC'n Puritan Board Doctor

    If I were going to be a parent, I would do research as to what they put into the vaccines and let that be my deciding factor. Do they put harmful things into any of the vaccines or don't they? I know they put mercury into the flu shot which is highly cancerous. If I weren't force to get it at work, I wouldn't get it. I and my sisters didn't get some of our childhood vaccines, we got some of the disease, lived through it, and built up an immunity to those diseases naturally. In the end, you have to do the research yourself and decide for yourself. Don't take anyone else's advice but your own and that of your wife...they are your children.
     
  20. AltogetherLovely

    AltogetherLovely Puritan Board Freshman

    How do you know it's a very small percentage? Has there been a large-scale, long-term study (or any study at all) comparing the health outcomes of vaccinated and unvaccinated populations with similar demographics and lifestyles? How do you know what is or isn't affected by vaccination?
     
  21. Fogetaboutit

    Fogetaboutit Puritan Board Freshman

    I understand some of the risks, I'm just a bit weary of giving vaccines to a baby coming out of the womb, especially when the dosage is the same as for adults. My wife and I have our hepatitis vaccines and I'm not saying we will not eventually give them to our children.





    On an other note I believe there's an issues with some people in the medical field who overreact to people being cautious about certain vaccines. My wife was accused of being an unfit mother by doctors and nurses for refusing to take certain vaccines during her pregnancy.

    I certainly value professional opinions of people in the medical field but I reserve the right to make my own decision and I do not appreciate being disrespected when I choose to go against their suggestions. My family doctor worked at the obstetric clinics for many years and when we decided to wait before administering certain vaccines for our child he said he respected our decision and was also not convinced about the safety of vaccines on young infants especially with the amount being administered before the age of 2 nowadays. So it's not just social media hype.

    We might not be able to prove without doubts that vaccines can cause neurological issues but we also cannot disprove it. I think common sense can be applied. We have friends who have a young boy who had convulsions within an hour after receiving his vaccines, this happened at least 4 times that I know about. Now some might say it only a coincidence but my common sense tells me otherwise. I don't need to have medical proof to deduces that when somebody is vomiting after ingesting a pint of whiskey within 10 minutes that the vomiting was cause by the ingested alcohol. The fact that some people might be able to ingest a pint of whiskey in the same amount of time without vomiting does not change the fact it did cause it for this other person.:2cents:

    PS: I was not responding to any post on this thread in particular, I was just sharing my experience and point of view on the subject.
     
  22. AltogetherLovely

    AltogetherLovely Puritan Board Freshman

    There are very simple ways to come to a pretty good certainty about it. We just won't do it.
     
  23. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Herd-immunity and the rise of previously beaten illnesses (like measles):

    http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/health360/posts/2015/02/06-measles-vaccines-mmr-herd-immunity-antivaxxers-patel

    If vaccines show improved public health, even if there is slight danger to the individual, then vaccination is not merely a public health or legal issue, but a "love thy neighbor" and 6th commandment issue.

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/how-anti-vaccination-trends-vex-herd-immunity-1423241871

    http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/herd-immunity-and-measles-why-we-should-aim-100-vaccination-coverage

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/03/measles-us-facts_n_6581922.html

    http://articles.latimes.com/2011/aug/05/health/la-he-vaccines-herd-immunity-20110801

     
  24. OPC'n

    OPC'n Puritan Board Doctor

    [video=youtube;q62DcaNs_0M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q62DcaNs_0M[/video]
     
  25. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Proof vaccines don't cause autism:

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/autism.html

    http://thinkprogress.org/health/2015/04/22/3650089/massive-study-autism-vaccine/

    http://www.realclearscience.com/2015/04/21/vaccines_amp_autism_study_is_nail_in_the_coffin_264377.html

    https://www.autismspeaks.org/science/science-news/new-meta-analysis-confirms-no-association-between-vaccines-and-autism

     
  26. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    This study addresses the "Too many, too soon" concern about vaccinations: https://www.autismspeaks.org/science/science-news/study-addresses-%E2%80%98too-many-too-soon%E2%80%99-vaccine-concerns

     
  27. Fogetaboutit

    Fogetaboutit Puritan Board Freshman

    I think we should be careful before invoking the 10 commandments in this discussion, if somebody showed statistics of decreased murder cases in areas where gun confiscation is in place and invoked the 6th commandment as an argument to disarm the population how would you respond?
     
  28. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    http://www.snopes.com/medical/disease/cdcwhistleblower.asp

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Concerns/Autism/cdc2004pediatrics.html

    http://www.morganverkamp.com/august-27-2014-press-release-statement-of-william-w-thompson-ph-d-regarding-the-2004-article-examining-the-possibility-of-a-relationship-between-mmr-vaccine-and-autism/

     
  29. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    When you endanger others through unwise actions, this is a moral issue. We should not ignore the moral implications of public health.
     
  30. AltogetherLovely

    AltogetherLovely Puritan Board Freshman

    Pergamum, none of those are new to me and, while many of them have yielded interesting details or phenomena, they cannot ultimately be stretched far enough to reach their conclusions.

    I admit my question was rhetorical. There are no studies that have compared unvaccinated populations to vaccinated populations that are otherwise similar, with regard to autism. And, the things that need to be studied are not limited to neurological disorders.

    When you come up with something new, the first logical step is to look at what happened to the people who took it, and what happened to those who didn't. We have purposefully avoided doing that.
     
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