Infant baptism and crisis conversions

[Scott]

- They are Federally Holy. (DPW)
- They have been set apart from the world. (WCF 27-1)
- As covenant members they have a right to training, discipline and care from the church.
- They are members of visible church, the historical administration of the administration of the COG. (WCF 25-2)
-That baptism is means of grace for our covenant children who receive it in personal faith (WCF 28-6)
- That personal faith is not tied to the moment of administration. (WCF 28-6)

Ok, I agree with these things too. How should the above views make the treatment of covenant children differ from that of parents or church officers holding non-covenantal perspective (dispensational, baptisitic, or whatever)?

Your earlier posts indicated no difference at all, with the exception of using baptism as an evangelistic "call" (as opposed to a seal). I am thinking of this quote:

Their baptism itself functions as a powerful call to faith and God certainly delights to work through families. Our children are set apart in the covenant community, live in homes where the ordinary means God (faith comes by hearing) uses to bring people to faith should be saturating their lives. They have fathers, mothers and elders seeking for their salvation.

The fundamental benefit is that the child is in a better position to be evangelized. I think dispensationalists and baptists would agree with this.

Thanks

[Edited on 12-3-2004 by Scott]

 

[Scott]

Fred: I am curious about your view of this quote from Adam:

For what it's worth, to the child who hasn´t shown signs of being spiritually awakened the last thing in the world I would want to do is focus our attention on sanctification issues (external conformity to the law) because that will obscure the gospel with moralism. I think that is one of the big problems when people jettison the idea of conversion for our kids is that moralism is right there to fill the vacuum. If we presume all of children are converted and start them on steady diet of teaching on sanctifcation "“ where does that leave the child who has not been awakened yet? I fear that child gets the idea that the Christian faith equals external righteousness, do this "“ do that, instead of believe on the Lord. This is where the discernment of parents and elders that I mentioned earlier comes into play.

What parts of the Christian religion do you think that children should be taught or not taught prior to your judgment that the child has converted? I am curious about how your views on judging the child's conversion in practice shapes the way you train a child.

Thanks

 

[turmeric]

Originally posted by Scott
Ok, I agree with these things too. How should the above views make the treatment of covenant children differ from that of parents or church officers holding non-covenantal perspective (dispensational, baptisitic, or whatever)?

The fundamental benefit is that the child is in a better position to be evangelized. I think dispensationalists and baptists would agree with this.

Thanks


So maybe dispensationalists & baptists have a vestigial covenant theology. Having grown up in these circles, I can attest to this. I'm not understanding this - what is so BAD about evangelizing covenant children - especially if it's done by simply going through the WCF or the catechism? Isn't that what instruction used to be about - evangelism & growth?
And what is this strawman that keeps popping up about not teaching kids to pray in Jesus' name? Children being federally holy should be taught to do this. So what if one day they come and tell you they now believe? Do we tell 'em that ain't Presbyterian to have a crisis-conversion? Let's don't be silly on either side of this issue.

[Edited on 12-3-2004 by Scott]

 

[Scott]

"And what is this strawman that keeps popping up about not teaching kids to pray in Jesus' name?"

This is not a strawman. In some circles children are expressly taught not to pray in Jesus' name. One example of this is found in the popular Growing Kids Gods Way child rearing materials.

I think it is also a practical question. For those who presume covenant children are really unsaved children of wrath, what does it teach children to pray in Jesus' name when they have not received Him as their savior? Hypocrisy? I think it is related to Adam's views of how to train children. There are certain parts of the Christian religion that he would not convey (elements related to sanctification) until he judges that the child has converted.

I do understand why the Ezzos (Growing Kids authors) would take the position that children should not pray in the name of Jesus, even though I disagree with it. It is a natural outgrowth of the presumption that the children or believers are unsaved and need evangelism. This view, if held consistently, can really affect the way you bring up kids.

 

[fredtgreco]

Originally posted by Scott
Fred: Where do you think you will pastor?

I really have no idea right now. My main concerns is to have a preaching pastorate (i.e. not an associate). We are open to the Lord's leading as to where. I am pointed in the direction of the PCA now, since that is where I have served and have almost all my contacts. But it may be difficult in this day and age as a "Vanilla Westminsterian"

Why? You lookin' for someone?

[Edited on 12/3/2004 by fredtgreco]

 

[fredtgreco]

Originally posted by Scott
Fred: I am curious about your view of this quote from Adam:

For what it's worth, to the child who hasn´t shown signs of being spiritually awakened the last thing in the world I would want to do is focus our attention on sanctification issues (external conformity to the law) because that will obscure the gospel with moralism. I think that is one of the big problems when people jettison the idea of conversion for our kids is that moralism is right there to fill the vacuum. If we presume all of children are converted and start them on steady diet of teaching on sanctifcation "“ where does that leave the child who has not been awakened yet? I fear that child gets the idea that the Christian faith equals external righteousness, do this "“ do that, instead of believe on the Lord. This is where the discernment of parents and elders that I mentioned earlier comes into play.

What parts of the Christian religion do you think that children should be taught or not taught prior to your judgment that the child has converted? I am curious about how your views on judging the child's conversion in practice shapes the way you train a child.

Thanks

Scott,

I think that no area of the Christian religion ought to be kept from children, including the necessity of public profession of faith in Christ (with the mouth we confess that Christ is Lord) and the absolute necessity of a new birth that is evidenced by fruit.

Here is the thing (as I think right now): for the child who has not shown fruit of conversion, his baptism is not a pillow to soften him, but a goad to push him on. He should not be put to sleep with cries of "you are a Christian, you have been baptized" but awakened with the dire threats of spurning the mark of God - "to whom much is given much is expected"

 

[Scott]

Fred: I am sure that you will make a great pastor and we need more vanilla Westminsterians! We are blessed to have a pastor of several years and are not looking for anyone right now. There is actually a good, established church in my presbytery that is genuinely reformed and I believe is looking for someone. Sinclair Ferguson has been preaching there quite a bit (on loan from Westminster Dallas). Paul Settle has also been involved. There was an unfortunate shake-up recently and a pastor of long0standing (and probably one of the better preachers in the area) left.

Of course, you would have to be in Mark Horne's presbytery . . .

Here is the thing (as I think right now): for the child who has not shown fruit of conversion, his baptism is not a pillow to soften him, but a goad to push him on. He should not be put to sleep with cries of "you are a Christian, you have been baptized" but awakened with the dire threats of spurning the mark of God - "to whom much is given much is expected"

Agreed. I think this is true for adults too.

[Edited on 12-3-2004 by Scott]

[Edited on 12-3-2004 by Scott]

 

[fredtgreco]

Originally posted by Scott
Fred: I am sure that you will make a great pastor and we need more vanilla Westminsterians! We are blessed to have a pastor of several years and are not looking for anyone right now. There is actually a good, established church in my presbytery that is genuinely reformed and I believe is looking for someone. Sinclair Ferguson has been preaching there quite a bit (on loan from Westminster Dallas). Paul Settle has also been involved.

Of course, you would have to be in Mark Horne's presbytery . . .

That alone might rule me out! But maybe you could vouch for me?? :bigsmile:

 

[Scott]

Sure!

 

[Puritan Sailor]

Originally posted by fredtgreco
I think that no area of the Christian religion ought to be kept from children, including the necessity of public profession of faith in Christ (with the mouth we confess that Christ is Lord) and the absolute necessity of a new birth that is evidenced by fruit.

Here is the thing (as I think right now): for the child who has not shown fruit of conversion, his baptism is not a pillow to soften him, but a goad to push him on. He should not be put to sleep with cries of "you are a Christian, you have been baptized" but awakened with the dire threats of spurning the mark of God - "to whom much is given much is expected"

I agree. What makes our children different from pagans is that they have been set apart as members of the church. This requires their instruction in the faith, all of the faith. I for one, do teach my children to pray, especially for forgiveness of sin and faith in Christ. Perhaps one day, if they haven't already, they will pray it with a sincere heart, and all the rest of the instruction they received will click.

 

[Scott]

I for one, do teach my children to pray, especially for forgiveness of sin and faith in Christ.

Do you teach them to pray in the name of Christ for faith in Christ? If so, that seems backwards.

 

[AdamM]

Here is the thing (as I think right now): for the child who has not shown fruit of conversion, his baptism is not a pillow to soften him, but a goad to push him on. He should not be put to sleep with cries of "you are a Christian, you have been baptized" but awakened with the dire threats of spurning the mark of God - "to whom much is given much is expected"

Very well said Fred!